Ovechkin Milestone Thread 2.0 - Passed some guy named Wayne, now NHL goalscoring leader (895)

[Alexander the Gr8]

I think the best part of the whole Ovechkin saga is how so many haters in the media wrote him off as being "cooked" yet he still got to 895 and they are still coping.

Case in point:

Damien Cox: Here’s my list of best NHL players of all time. Alex Ovechkin wouldn’t make the top 20 right now

That’s not to downgrade the NHL’s new goals leader, it’s to put his career in perspective.

www.thestar.com

As a Canadian, this reeks of nationalist bias. Ovechkin did what no one else could do or thought was even possible.

Some of the players he ranks ahead of Ovechkin don’t belong in the same sentence as him.

Red Kelly, seriously? He’s won the Norris once in almost 20 years and that’s it. He won a bunch of Cups back when there were only 5 other teams to compete against. Ranked #22 in the Hockey News top 100 of all time back in 1998. However, he was Canadian and played for the Leafs, so that automatically gets him ranked above Ovi.

Nonsense.

 

[Voight]

Gretzky and Ovechkin Did It Differently, and Also the Same

The Great One and the Great 8 have similar scoring stats—but only on the surface

www.theringer.com

View attachment 1010274View attachment 1010275View attachment 1010276View attachment 1010277View attachment 1010278

His goal scoring was already "declining". in his late 20s, but the second chart shows you the impact that Suter hit had on him. Just wasn't the same.

 

[Voight]

I think the best part of the whole Ovechkin saga is how so many haters in the media wrote him off as being "cooked" yet he still got to 895 and they are still coping.

Case in point:

Damien Cox: Here’s my list of best NHL players of all time. Alex Ovechkin wouldn’t make the top 20 right now

That’s not to downgrade the NHL’s new goals leader, it’s to put his career in perspective.

www.thestar.com

Can't remember which media guy it was (maybe Pierre McGuire) but one of them back in 2016 or 2017 was adamant Ovechkin was no longer an elite goal scorer and had zero chance to pass Howe, let alone Gretzky.

 

[discobob]

Marek has him 4th after Gretzky, Mario, and Hasek, ahead of Sid. I was genuinely shocked to see that out of a Canadian media member.

This is basically the same argument I've used when discussing this with others. I'm not sure I'd say top 5, but top 10 easily.

The argument that I'm sick of is XXXX player could have scored more goals, but focused on playmaking instead. It's easier to talk about if you just remove names so it's not personal.

1) XXXX player didn't score those goals
2) XXXX player couldn't have scored as many goals as OV if his life depended on it (on a season by season basis)

 

[kaiser matias]

As a Canadian, this reeks of nationalist bias. Ovechkin did what no one else could do or thought was even possible.

Some of the players he ranks ahead of Ovechkin don’t belong in the same sentence as him.

Red Kelly, seriously? He’s won the Norris once in almost 20 years and that’s it. He won a bunch of Cups back when there were only 5 other teams to compete against. Ranked #22 in the Hockey News top 100 of all time back in 1998. However, he was Canadian and played for the Leafs, so that automatically gets him ranked above Ovi.

Nonsense.

It doesn't help that the Norris Trophy was only introduced during Kelly's 7th season. He likely would have won it several times before had it existed.

And that he was moved to a centre with Toronto also precluded him from winning an award for defencemen.

 

[Tawnos]

This is basically the same argument I've used when discussing this with others. I'm not sure I'd say top 5, but top 10 easily.

The argument that I'm sick of is XXXX player could have scored more goals, but focused on playmaking instead. It's easier to talk about if you just remove names so it's not personal.

1) XXXX player didn't score those goals
2) XXXX player couldn't have scored as many goals as OV if his life depended on it (on a season by season basis)

I do want to point out one thing, in regards to the playmaking focus thing. In 85-86, Gretzky definitely focused hard on getting assists rather than goals. Whether it was because he set out to get 2 assists per game before the season started (as he claimed in his autobiography), or he had a bug up about how the NHL treats assists statistics (as at least one contemporary source claimed), or that he simply started off the season a little snake-bitten on the goal side and decided to focus on his playmaking instead... there is absolutely no doubt that he did intentionally change his approach in that season despite the fact that his shot totals remained similar. He still scored 52 goals that year, but probably gets at least 10 more without that focus shift, having scored 73 the year before and 62 the year after.

In Gretzky's case, it's definitely more of a 1) XXXX player didn't score those goals. The argument might be tiresome, but it is part of the conversation. He's not the only top player to purposely make a style shift. A notable example I can think of is Crosby, who in 09-10 specifically decided to adjust his game in the opposite direction to become more of a goal-scorer.

In no way do I want to diminish Ovechkin's accomplishment and I agree that he should be considered a top-10 player. To me, it's shocking he got to this point and is a testament to just how good he is.

 

[Alexander the Gr8]

It doesn't help that the Norris Trophy was only introduced during Kelly's 7th season. He likely would have won it several times before had it existed.

And that he was moved to a centre with Toronto also precluded him from winning an award for defencemen.

Thanks for your input. Still doesn’t change my opinion, there have been many players with much more impressive careers since. O6 era accomplishments don’t really compare with accomplishments in 30-32 team leagues with tons of analytics and game footage available to understand and counter players.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Watching him turn the momentum of a game by knocking the piss out of Hurricanes at age 39 is too much fun.

Impossible. He does only one thing - or so we are told.

 

[discobob]

I do want to point out one thing, in regards to the playmaking focus thing. In 85-86, Gretzky definitely focused hard on getting assists rather than goals. Whether it was because he set out to get 2 assists per game before the season started (as he claimed in his autobiography), or he had a bug up about how the NHL treats assists statistics (as at least one contemporary source claimed), or that he simply started off the season a little snake-bitten on the goal side and decided to focus on his playmaking instead... there is absolutely no doubt that he did intentionally change his approach in that season despite the fact that his shot totals remained similar.

I'm sure there is probably some validity to the fact that Wayne adapted his game, I'm not against that historical observation. My frustration (not specifically targeting Wayne) is that many posters seem to have a fixation with downplaying goal totals using a hypothetical argument....

XXXX player didn't score as many goals, but he could have if only he focused on it, he just cared more about "helping" his teammates

Obviously I'm making this a bit of a caricature... but that seems to be the sentiment. I just don't believe the players that Ovechkin is often compared to could do what he has done, even if they directed their entire career toward scoring goals.

Take Crosby for example (who is easily a top 10 player in his own right). If his entire career was focused toward scoring goals, I still don't think he would have sniffed Wayne's record. You can debate this point... but many seem to almost take it for granted that there are other players who could have toppled Wayne's record if they only had wanted to.... IMO, that's silly.

 

[Midnight Judges]

This is basically the same argument I've used when discussing this with others. I'm not sure I'd say top 5, but top 10 easily.

The argument that I'm sick of is XXXX player could have scored more goals, but focused on playmaking instead. It's easier to talk about if you just remove names so it's not personal.

1) XXXX player didn't score those goals
2) XXXX player couldn't have scored as many goals as OV if his life depended on it (on a season by season basis)

It’s a pretty common tactic unfortunately. Your favorite player takes his actual career and goes up against what I imagine my favorite player could have accomplished.

Frankly, that is the outcome of all these “what if” threads - to morph the discussion from what actually happened into what certain people wish would have happened.

 

[NatusVincere]

I think the best part of the whole Ovechkin saga is how so many haters in the media wrote him off as being "cooked" yet he still got to 895 and they are still coping.

Case in point:

Damien Cox: Here’s my list of best NHL players of all time. Alex Ovechkin wouldn’t make the top 20 right now

That’s not to downgrade the NHL’s new goals leader, it’s to put his career in perspective.

www.thestar.com

Ovechking breaking Gretzkys goal scoring record is like a Serbian destroying the NBA. Tough to handle for the Don Cherrys of this world. Soon the WADA will be activated to get things straight.

 

[Tawnos]

I'm sure there is probably some validity to the fact that Wayne adapted his game, I'm not against that historical observation. My frustration (not specifically targeting Wayne) is that many posters seem to have a fixation with downplaying goal totals using a hypothetical argument....

XXXX player didn't score as many goals, but he could have if only he focused on it, he just cared more about "helping" his teammates

Obviously I'm making this a bit of a caricature... but that seems to be the sentiment. I just don't believe the players that Ovechkin is often compared to could do what he has done, even if they directed their entire career toward scoring goals.

Take Crosby for example (who is easily a top 10 player in his own right). If his entire career was focused toward scoring goals, I still don't think he would have sniffed Wayne's record. You can debate this point... but many seem to almost take it for granted that there are other players who could have toppled Wayne's record if they only had wanted to.... IMO, that's silly.

I do think it's less of a choice than your portraying. Crosby doesn't play a goal-scoring focused style because he has all-time passing abilities to go along with it. He developed a different style based on his own abilities that would best help his team win games (a distinction, IMO, from helping his teammates).

There is a pretty simple and valid statistical argument to be made here that Crosby would be there if he focused more on goal-scoring. If Crosby's shooting percentage remained the same (14.5) and he shot at the rate Ovechkin has shot in his career (4.6 shots per game), Crosby would have 899 goals right now in 1,349 games.

There are actually a bunch of all-time players who would be around Gretzky's goal total if they'd shot 4.6 times per game. And again, I'm not diminishing Ovechkin's accomplishment at all. I just think it's hard to justify that other all-time greats wouldn't match it if they played the style Ovechkin plays.

 

[zappa4ever]

But OV Did it. No adjusted era, no "on pace", no excuses.
No ifs.
No one else came within 100 goals.
Howe only hit 800 b/c he came back at 50 y.o. and 8 years away from the NHL. (He was done at 786 after the 1970-71 season)

 

[kaiser matias]

Thanks for your input. Still doesn’t change my opinion, there have been many players with much more impressive careers since. O6 era accomplishments don’t really compare with accomplishments in 30-32 team leagues with tons of analytics and game footage available to understand and counter players.

All good, I understood what you were saying. Just wanted to clarify things, as not everyone is aware of the history here.

 

[pi314]

As a Canadian, this reeks of nationalist bias. Ovechkin did what no one else could do or thought was even possible.

Some of the players he ranks ahead of Ovechkin don’t belong in the same sentence as him.

Red Kelly, seriously? He’s won the Norris once in almost 20 years and that’s it. He won a bunch of Cups back when there were only 5 other teams to compete against. Ranked #22 in the Hockey News top 100 of all time back in 1998. However, he was Canadian and played for the Leafs, so that automatically gets him ranked above Ovi.

Nonsense.

Or they’ve played hockey and know what defense is.

 

[TJHKY]

 

[ViD]

Ovie says he did not plan to do the sliding celebration, he wanted to skate to the other end of the ice but stumbled and had to improvise

 

[discobob]

I do think it's less of a choice than your portraying. Crosby doesn't play a goal-scoring focused style because he has all-time passing abilities to go along with it. He developed a different style based on his own abilities that would best help his team win games (a distinction, IMO, from helping his teammates).

There is a pretty simple and valid statistical argument to be made here that Crosby would be there if he focused more on goal-scoring. If Crosby's shooting percentage remained the same (14.5) and he shot at the rate Ovechkin has shot in his career (4.6 shots per game), Crosby would have 899 goals right now in 1,349 games.

There are actually a bunch of all-time players who would be around Gretzky's goal total if they'd shot 4.6 times per game. And again, I'm not diminishing Ovechkin's accomplishment at all. I just think it's hard to justify that other all-time greats wouldn't match it if they played the style Ovechkin plays.

I just don't see the same goal scoring talent in the players frequently referenced (including Crosby). Goal scoring is THE key part of the game... I just don't believe that other players are forgoing 50 goal after 50 goal season by choice. If they could score at Ovechkins level, they would.

If you feel otherwise, see how you feel about this statement.... Ovechkin could have put up points equal to or more than McDavid or Crosby, but he chose to focus on the more difficult skill of goal scoring.

FWIW, I don't agree with the above statement

 

[Midnight Judges]

Or they’ve played hockey and know what defense is.

Whoops. Glass houses and all that.

Your boy Crosby has a commanding lead for 5v5 on-ice goals against (196) over the past 3 years. The second worst defensive forward in the NHL has 182.

Player Season Totals - Natural Stat Trick

 

[Tawnos]

I just don't see the same goal scoring talent in the players frequently referenced (including Crosby). Goal scoring is THE key part of the game... I just don't believe that other players are forgoing 50 goal after 50 goal season by choice. If they could score at Ovechkins level, they would.

If you feel otherwise, see how you feel about this statement.... Ovechkin could have put up points equal to or more than McDavid or Crosby, but he chose to focus on the more difficult skill of goal scoring.

FWIW, I don't agree with the above statement

So you’re just going to ignore everything I wrote, including me saying that it’s not a choice the way you’re portraying it, and repeat what you’ve already said. Cool, cool.

 

[WarriorofTime]

I think the best part of the whole Ovechkin saga is how so many haters in the media wrote him off as being "cooked" yet he still got to 895 and they are still coping.

Case in point:

Damien Cox: Here’s my list of best NHL players of all time. Alex Ovechkin wouldn’t make the top 20 right now

That’s not to downgrade the NHL’s new goals leader, it’s to put his career in perspective.

www.thestar.com

Comparing the WHA to the Negro Leagues is incredibly tone deaf.

Then there’s the matter of World Hockey Association goal totals. As of 2024, Major League Baseball decided to include Negro League stats alongside MLB numbers. Career statistics for Hall of Famers like Jackie Robinson, Satchel Paige and Minnie Miñoso now reflect their Negro Leagues accomplishments. Josh Gibson is now baseball’s all-time batting average leader, not Ty Cobb.

The NHL, however, still maintains the only numbers that matter are registered in its league. During the WHA’s existence in the 1970s, it indisputably was home to some of the best players in the world at that time. Howe scored 174 goals in the WHA after leaving the Detroit Red Wings and before returning to the NHL with the merger in 1979. Added together, his NHL/WHA regular season goal total is 975.

Sure enough, you won't find a single mention of a pre-NHL Soviet even though matches like '72 SS, '81 CC and '87 CC showed the top Soviet players weren't too far off the NHL's best.

If you're going to randomly start saying Gretzky and Howe's WHA goals should be added, why not add all the Pro Goals Jagr and Ovechkin, amongst others, scored outside of the NHL?

 

[Tawnos]

Comparing the WHA to the Negro Leagues is incredibly tone deaf.




Sure enough, you won't find a single mention of a pre-NHL Soviet even though matches like '72 SS, '81 CC and '87 CC showed the top Soviet players weren't too far off the NHL's best.

If you're going to randomly start saying Gretzky and Howe's WHA goals should be added, why not add all the Pro Goals Jagr and Ovechkin, amongst others, scored outside of the NHL?

FWIW, that is a thing people have done, usually including playoff goals as well. The last goal Gretzky scored in his career was #1,072 including WHA and playoff goals in both leagues. Thats the current record.

Howe had 1,071.

Jagr has 1,043 between NHL, KHL, RSL and Czech leagues.

Ovechkin has 1,024 between NHL, KHL, and RSL.

 

[Alexander the Gr8]

Or they’ve played hockey and know what defense is.

I’ve played hockey and I know what defense is as a defenseman. If you don’t think Ovi plays any defense, you might be stuck in 2014.

 

[kaiser matias]

Comparing the WHA to the Negro Leagues is incredibly tone deaf.




Sure enough, you won't find a single mention of a pre-NHL Soviet even though matches like '72 SS, '81 CC and '87 CC showed the top Soviet players weren't too far off the NHL's best.

If you're going to randomly start saying Gretzky and Howe's WHA goals should be added, why not add all the Pro Goals Jagr and Ovechkin, amongst others, scored outside of the NHL?

It's a little early for most people, but it would be more appropriate to include PCHA, WCHL, and even NHA totals if that's the argument. It wouldn't impact all-time totals, but it would make for some interesting per game and goalie records (though I would not advocate adding any non-NHL totals in general).

 

[TheLegend27]

Whoops. Glass houses and all that.

Your boy Crosby has a commanding lead for 5v5 on-ice goals against (196) over the past 3 years. The second worst defensive forward in the NHL has 182.

Player Season Totals - Natural Stat Trick

How much of that is poor goaltending and terrible defensive line-mates?.