Ovechkin just won his 9th Rocket. Does this change how you view him?

bobholly39

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This is mainly in response to any context being placed on his Rocket wins, namely his overall scoring finishes and Hart placings.

Both sides are wrong, in the end. Looking at the rocket this year as some huge achievement in the context of a career - or equating it in value to a ross or hart win (or even close) is probably wrong. But limiting yourself to saying "he's 18th in scoring this year - it doesn't move the needle" is probably also limiting. The truth is somewhere in the middle.

More goals is a good thing - and has always been recognized as such. Last year he was 15th in scoring, but 7th for hart. The year before, 11th in scoring, and 9th for hart. Even dreaded 2016 with 21 assists but a rocket - it was good for 15th in scoring and 6th in hart.

So - I think the Hart placements are a good representation of taking both the goal-scoring and overall scoring into account - to properly rate his seasons.

19 assists and 18th in scoring this year isn't all that great - but considering he won the rocket, and may have ended with ~55 goals in a full season - it's still a tremendous season overall (especially since he's 34 years old).
 

quoipourquoi

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Maurice Richard in his famous 50 in 50 season.....had 23 assists. In his hart winning year in 47, he has 45 goals....and 26 assists.

And Richard is always in conversation for #5 best player ever.

To point out the obvious, in Maurice Richard’s 50 in 50 season, the second “50” is games played. Which means he had 23 assists in 50 games. In 1947, it was 26 assists in 60 games.

Which would make those 73 points in 50 games and 71 points in 60 games seasons, good for 2nd in league scoring.

Even if you consider this low in spite of the season length, his skewing towards goal-scoring did not preclude Richard from being a top-5 points-per-game scorer on 11 occasions between 1944-1957. Ovechkin’s lack of assists is however affecting his standing each year relative to his contemporaries.

Also, league average assists-per-goal were 1.20, 1.13, and 1.30 from 1945-1947. The league eventually settled into 1.60-1.70 after the 1950s, but there’s a good argument that Richard’s assists are depressed by the era.
 

JasonRoseEh

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Not really. If anything, I’d say a 48:19 ratio to David Pastrnak’s 48:47 and Leon Draisaitl’s 43:67 emphasizes that looking at goals and assists in isolation of each other is problematic.
Tell me who else is putting up huge points on his line or on the powerplay? Assist numbers within the context of his own team and an almost franchise bad powerplay percentage during his career tell the tale.

The Capitals are unique in that they're one of the most successful franchises of the decade but don't produce those huge individual seasons. Ultimately Ovechkin is still leading the team in points, this year being the outlier but who knows where that would've ended up and he's led his team in points more than Crosby has led the Penguins, for an example.

Is that a failing of the player, or a compliment of the type of team they have? Sure they could load up the top line to produce all the points like the Avalanche have done for instance, or they keep having success with balancing out the talent like they've done the past 5-6 years.
 
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JasonRoseEh

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Ovechkin is clearly a top 10 player at this point and he's not done, he's ahead of Bobby Hull and he's ahead of Maurice Richard running away and he's still playing. If capturing your 9th Rocket to tie the all time mark at 34 doesn't elevate your perspective on the player your bias is showing.

The amount of pearl clutching, rose colored nostalgia going on in this thread is pretty gross tbh. Any comment as to Ovechkin being one trick, or somehow not in the conversation for one of the all time greats, or ahead/right with a Bobby Hull that played in a limited, all Canadian NHL are pretty ridiculous and almost not worth engaging in.

I've seen that the competition is somehow lessened today in terms of goal scoring? Ovechkin doesn't compete against Patranak and Matthews, he competes against the league as do they and the league is deeper and more talented than it has ever been. The goalies are light years better and it's harder to score goals than it ever has been. Non sequitur positions like prime Bure would outscore him are just laughable hypothetical claims to make. Ovechkin is doing what was thought impossible in the modern era and he's doing at ages where most hockey players careers are almost over.
 
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JasonRoseEh

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Because Hull was not a one trick pony. If you think that Ovechkin is a lot better than Hull and that it's not even close, then I'm the one laughing. Hull is widely regarded as either the second or third best winger ever. Ovechkin is still behind him and Jagr.
If you're making the argument Ovechkin is a one trick pony in 2020 you've lost the plot. He is OBJECTIVELY and DEMONSTRABLY not a one trick player. There is no argument that supports him being that.
 
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bobholly39

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To point out the obvious, in Maurice Richard’s 50 in 50 season, the second “50” is games played. Which means he had 23 assists in 50 games. In 1947, it was 26 assists in 60 games.

Which would make those 73 points in 50 games and 71 points in 60 games seasons, good for 2nd in league scoring.

Even if you consider this low in spite of the season length, his skewing towards goal-scoring did not preclude Richard from being a top-5 points-per-game scorer on 11 occasions between 1944-1957. Ovechkin’s lack of assists is however affecting his standing each year relative to his contemporaries.

Also, league average assists-per-goal were 1.20, 1.13, and 1.30 from 1945-1947. The league eventually settled into 1.60-1.70 after the 1950s, but there’s a good argument that Richard’s assists are depressed by the era.
To the bolded....this is where you have to apply a lot of context when comparing across eras.

It's a lot easier for Maurice Richard to finish top 5 in ppg in a year in a 6 team league with less star players than it is for Ovechkin in a league with 30 teams and....many more star players.
In 2014 for example - Ovechkin finished 9th in ppg. Behind Neal, Giroux, Seguin Hall, Tavares, Getzlaf, Malkin and Crosby
In 1953 Richard finished 3rd in ppg, behind Howe and Lindsay

Richard is better right? Not really. His ppg that year actually looks quite subpar and disappointing vs surrounding years. But smaller league, and less star players - so the likes of Neal/Giroux/Seguin/Hall etc aren't part of the picture to bump him down to 9th or below - and it ends up 3rd place ppg for Richard vs 9th place for Ovi.
 

Sentinel

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Also no way Ovechkin wins even half of his second half career Rockets against stiffer competition, say Lemieux, prime Bure or early 90s Brett Hull, Selänne, Mogilny or even Cam Neely.
Why are you comparing POST-PRIME Ovy to PRIME goalscorers?

Of these six players, only Lemieux and Bure won a Richard in the second half of his career. And both were so injury-prone, it's hard to even call their last Richard-winning seasons "second halves." Last time Lemieux won a Richard, he was 31 years old. Bure -- 30 years old. By 34 neither of them was in the conversation for Richard.

I guess Selanne qualifies: he was 37 when he last competed for Richard, but didn't win.
 
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quoipourquoi

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To the bolded....this is where you have to apply a lot of context when comparing across eras.

It's a lot easier for Maurice Richard to finish top 5 in ppg in a year in a 6 team league with less star players than it is for Ovechkin in a league with 30 teams and....many more star players.
In 2014 for example - Ovechkin finished 9th in ppg. Behind Neal, Giroux, Seguin Hall, Tavares, Getzlaf, Malkin and Crosby
In 1953 Richard finished 3rd in ppg, behind Howe and Lindsay

Richard is better right? Not really. His ppg that year actually looks quite subpar and disappointing vs surrounding years. But smaller league, and less star players - so the likes of Neal/Giroux/Seguin/Hall etc aren't part of the picture to bump him down to 9th or below - and it ends up 3rd place ppg for Richard vs 9th place for Ovi.

Not even going to acknowledge that you just threw out a raw assist total from a 50-game season without context? Or that Richard’s 26 assists in 1947 (just 1 assist back from finishing top-10) were bookended by league leaders with 34 assists in 1946 and 37 assists in 1948?

Are we going to start on Syl Apps’ 29-assist seasons from 1937 and 1938 next?

Yes, Gordie Howe and Ted Lindsay outscored Maurice Richard in 1953. Detroit had 222 goals while no one else had more than 169. They were also the only two players to outscore Maurice Richard in 1953. Alex Ovechkin just got outscored by his own defenseman.
 

Sentinel

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Yes, Gordie Howe and Ted Lindsay outscored Maurice Richard in 1953. Detroit had 222 goals while no one else had more than 169. They were also the only two players to outscore Maurice Richard in 1953. Alex Ovechkin just got outscored by his own defenseman.
In 1985-86 Mario Lemieux scored as many goals as defenseman Paul Coffey (48). Weird things happen.

Bob's point was, if i understand him correctly, that in some seasons Richard's goals accounted for 2/3 of his point totals. Similar to Ovechkin.

Ovechkin's team and Richard's team both benefit when Ovechkin and Richard score goals. Not pass. Not play defense. Score goals.

Here is another comparison point for you: over their NHL RS careers, Richard was 0.431 APG (422 A in 978 GP), Ovechkin 0.496 APG (572 A in 1152 GP), and Hull was 0.526 APG (560 A in 1063 GP). One of these had teammates not like others.
 
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sr edler

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Why are you comparing POST-PRIME Ovy to PRIME goalscorers?

Of these six players, only Lemieux and Bure won a Richard in the second half of his career. And both were so injury-prone, it's hard to even call their last Richard-winning seasons "second halves." Last time Lemieux won a Richard, he was 31 years old. Bure -- 30 years old. By 34 neither of them was in the conversation for Richard.

Because they didn't play in a baby powder environment?
 

quoipourquoi

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Bob's point was, if i understand him correctly, that in some seasons Richard's goals accounted for 2/3 of his point totals. Similar to Ovechkin.

Two things: the NHL awarded fewer assists per goal back then, so everyone’s ratio would be skewed relative to subsequent players. Secondly, Maurice Richard’s ratios were particularly skewed not because he wasn’t getting assists in both seasons. He was just 1 and 3 assists off from finishing top-10 in 1945 and 1947.

Ovechkin isn’t exactly in the range of top-10 (51 assists). Or top-20 (44 assists). Or top-50 (35 assists). Or top-100 (28 assists). He’s close to top-200 though (20 assists).

However, because Richard scored 50 goals when no one else had more than 32, and 45 goals when no one else had more than 30, his ratio looks wild. Doesn’t make it comparable to what Ovechkin is doing now.
 

Dennis Bonvie

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Two things: the NHL awarded fewer assists per goal back then, so everyone’s ratio would be skewed relative to subsequent players. Secondly, Maurice Richard’s ratios were particularly skewed not because he wasn’t getting assists in both seasons. He was just 1 and 3 assists off from finishing top-10 in 1945 and 1947.

Ovechkin isn’t exactly in the range of top-10 (51 assists). Or top-20 (44 assists). Or top-50 (35 assists). Or top-100 (28 assists). He’s close to top-200 though (20 assists).

However, because Richard scored 50 goals when no one else had more than 32, and 45 goals when no one else had more than 30, his ratio looks wild. Doesn’t make it comparable to what Ovechkin is doing now.

That's a big point that has been missed in this discussion.
 

bobholly39

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Not even going to acknowledge that you just threw out a raw assist total from a 50-game season without context? Or that Richard’s 26 assists in 1947 (just 1 assist back from finishing top-10) were bookended by league leaders with 34 assists in 1946 and 37 assists in 1948?

Are we going to start on Syl Apps’ 29-assist seasons from 1937 and 1938 next?

Yes, Gordie Howe and Ted Lindsay outscored Maurice Richard in 1953. Detroit had 222 goals while no one else had more than 169. They were also the only two players to outscore Maurice Richard in 1953. Alex Ovechkin just got outscored by his own defenseman.

Are you seriously accusing me of cherry-picking only a portion of your post to respond to....after you did the exact thing to me, first?

What's there to acknowledge - you're right. Nowhere did I say or even suggest that Ovechkin's 19 assists from this year is exactly equal to Richard's 23 assists that one year. I was just making a parallel, with another high end goal-scorer who has a much higher total of goals vs assists in some years, even some of his best years.

If you want to actually compare Richard's 23 assist season to Ovechkin's 19 assists this year - I mean, we can - but isn't that Richard's like very best or second best season against Ovechkin's....8th best? 9th? 10th? Don't even know off hand.

If you want to compare apples to apples - why don't you tell me how you'd slot Ovechkin's current season to all of his other seasons. Is it his 8th best? 10th? Other? And then - identify Richard's 8th 0r 10th best seasons and let's compare head to head. And on top of that - let's stop looking at "top 10 in assists" without context, since like I was saying top 10 varies across era (no, not enough to account for Ovechkin being top 200 this year).

If the league in 1953 had 30 teams instead of 6 - and thus, if the league had stars such as the Seguins, Giroux, Tavares &co - odds are Richard doesn't finish 3rd in ppg with the season he put up in 1953, because quite a few players would surpass that. Do you disagree? If you do - i'd love to hear your explanation. If you don't - you shouldn't use "11 top 5 ppg to less for Ovechkin", since it doesn't really tell us a whole lot.

Also - that last comment about "being outscored by his own defenseman". Is that supposed to mean anything? A 34 year old gets outscored by a defenseman who just had one of the highest scoring seasons by a defenseman.....in a very long time. So what? I don't see how it's supposed to diminish Ovechkin
 
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Michael Farkas

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The Maurice Richard talk is a little bit more in line with where Ovechkin is for me. Bobby Hull is just too lofty. Richard had similar limitations, similar strengths, and, squinting, a similar style to Ovechkin...Richard was a better for his team as a three-line puck carrier probably, Ovechkin was a more powerful forecheck hitter...playoffs is a little tough because Richard played with a wagon...Ovechkin played with a very strong team, but it wasn't the 50's Canadiens...if I'm unwilling to put all the praise on Richard for the Canadiens success then I can't dump all the failing for the Caps on Ovechkin. Richard led the league twice in very, very "meh" times...maybe a third. Ovechkin just leads the league whenever he wants...so point Ovechkin there.

That said, this style of player (looping in Richard and Ovechkin into the same frame here) is the type of player that I find to be the most overrated by fans. That doesn't mean they're bad, but I don't view the game through the entertainment lens...I look at it through a coaching/scouting lens, that's why I'm a nut for the eye test and watching players. When I went back and watched Richard, I railed against him in our top 100 project. The fact that he was ever in the discussion for 5th best of all time is a miss in my opinion. That said, he was probably the most technically skilled player in history up until 1950 as well. It's a complicated position to try to write out. It's weird to say things like "you can only use this player for so much on the rink as a whole" because it makes it sound like we're talking about Jay Beagle...but I mean it in the context of the greatest players in history.

And, just to say the words again, if you value this style of player. That's fine. That's a valid opinion. At the end of the day, he's doing the thing that costs the most money in the game: throwing the puck into the net at, seemingly, will...it's unclear if anyone has done it better than him (either him in this case)...that's perfectly reasonable criteria if you want that and value that over two-way defensemen, two-way forwards, balanced offensive forwards, goalies (especially), etc. There's a logical consistency that needs to be met with that for the rest of your list. You can't love Ovechkin and hate Richard. You can't love Richard and hate Ovechkin as a player. Relative to the field, I don't have either in my top 10...I don't see a path for them to get there in all likelihood either. But I have like 7 of my 13 as defensemen, which virtually no one else has. That's how I view the game and what's valuable.

At the same time, trying to lawyer and word-game people into submission is an out-of-ideas idea. Ovechkin, again, in the lens of the top 20, 40, 50 whatever players of all time, is not a balanced offensive attacker. He is used and uses his best weapon: his shooting prowess. He can beat goalies clean with a wrist shot - most guys can't do that. He can sit there in the same spot for 15 years and blast one-timers past goalies and no one can stop him...hell, they added another team to the league and pitted them against him to stop him and couldn't. He's a talented player. But let's not pretend he's some elite level playmaker either from a passing perspective. I know he has made a pass before. I know he has made good ones because he is talented that's why we're talking about him. He's not Evander Kane or some such. But the lack of playmaking and how he gets the lack of "balance" is part of the nature of the Capitals failures in the playoffs. Him carrying the puck through the NZ and being the zone entry guy from the left side and not being able to do both...not being the start of the rush AND the finish. And that's not a knock on him, there's very few players in history that can routinely start the rush and finish it. The point is, he didn't show the adaptation to moving it and getting it back to finish it. That's why it's no surprise that after a decade of ramming his head into a wall with top-end teams (multiple Presidents' Trophies, yada yada yada) that he and his group got over the top when a puck carrier came into the mix (Evgeny Kuznetsov). It's a graphic (even if not totally obvious) difference, and when you're up at these lofty parts of the list, it sets you back for me...
 

bobholly39

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Two things: the NHL awarded fewer assists per goal back then, so everyone’s ratio would be skewed relative to subsequent players. Secondly, Maurice Richard’s ratios were particularly skewed not because he wasn’t getting assists in both seasons. He was just 1 and 3 assists off from finishing top-10 in 1945 and 1947.

Ovechkin isn’t exactly in the range of top-10 (51 assists). Or top-20 (44 assists). Or top-50 (35 assists). Or top-100 (28 assists). He’s close to top-200 though (20 assists).

However, because Richard scored 50 goals when no one else had more than 32, and 45 goals when no one else had more than 30, his ratio looks wild. Doesn’t make it comparable to what Ovechkin is doing now.

I can't think of a good comparable to what Ovechkin is doing now. And a reason why is - because what Ovechkin is doing now is pretty unprecedented. Who else was scoring ~50 goals and winning rockets at his age, even moreso in a lower scoring era. But here's a few attempts are comparisons for overall scoring at similar age:

Mark Messier. At age 33 - he finished 30th in scoring. At age 32 he finished 31st in scoring. No hart consideration either year.
Ovechkin at age 33 finished 15th in scoring and 7th in hart voting. At age 32 finished 11th in scoring, and 9th in hart voting.

Messier was voted 1 spot ahead of Ovechkin in our top 100 list, so a good comparable.

If you want to go up even higher.
Gretzky - age 34. 19th in scoring. No hart consideration.

I'd say what Ovechkin is still doing today at his age is pretty incredible. And I'd say his hart placement are a good representation of what his season is worth overall. Not best in league - but top ~7-10 or so, pretty consistently, which has value.

If we restrict the conversation strictly to goal-scoring (and who the best/greatest goal-scorer is) i'd say his rocket win and 48 goal total at age 34 is very significant.
 

overpass

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The Maurice Richard talk is a little bit more in line with where Ovechkin is for me. Bobby Hull is just too lofty. Richard had similar limitations, similar strengths, and, squinting, a similar style to Ovechkin...Richard was a better for his team as a three-line puck carrier probably, Ovechkin was a more powerful forecheck hitter...playoffs is a little tough because Richard played with a wagon...Ovechkin played with a very strong team, but it wasn't the 50's Canadiens...if I'm unwilling to put all the praise on Richard for the Canadiens success then I can't dump all the failing for the Caps on Ovechkin. Richard led the league twice in very, very "meh" times...maybe a third. Ovechkin just leads the league whenever he wants...so point Ovechkin there.

That said, this style of player (looping in Richard and Ovechkin into the same frame here) is the type of player that I find to be the most overrated by fans. That doesn't mean they're bad, but I don't view the game through the entertainment lens...I look at it through a coaching/scouting lens, that's why I'm a nut for the eye test and watching players. When I went back and watched Richard, I railed against him in our top 100 project. The fact that he was ever in the discussion for 5th best of all time is a miss in my opinion. That said, he was probably the most technically skilled player in history up until 1950 as well. It's a complicated position to try to write out. It's weird to say things like "you can only use this player for so much on the rink as a whole" because it makes it sound like we're talking about Jay Beagle...but I mean it in the context of the greatest players in history.

And, just to say the words again, if you value this style of player. That's fine. That's a valid opinion. At the end of the day, he's doing the thing that costs the most money in the game: throwing the puck into the net at, seemingly, will...it's unclear if anyone has done it better than him (either him in this case)...that's perfectly reasonable criteria if you want that and value that over two-way defensemen, two-way forwards, balanced offensive forwards, goalies (especially), etc. There's a logical consistency that needs to be met with that for the rest of your list. You can't love Ovechkin and hate Richard. You can't love Richard and hate Ovechkin as a player. Relative to the field, I don't have either in my top 10...I don't see a path for them to get there in all likelihood either. But I have like 7 of my 13 as defensemen, which virtually no one else has. That's how I view the game and what's valuable.

At the same time, trying to lawyer and word-game people into submission is an out-of-ideas idea. Ovechkin, again, in the lens of the top 20, 40, 50 whatever players of all time, is not a balanced offensive attacker. He is used and uses his best weapon: his shooting prowess. He can beat goalies clean with a wrist shot - most guys can't do that. He can sit there in the same spot for 15 years and blast one-timers past goalies and no one can stop him...hell, they added another team to the league and pitted them against him to stop him and couldn't. He's a talented player. But let's not pretend he's some elite level playmaker either from a passing perspective. I know he has made a pass before. I know he has made good ones because he is talented that's why we're talking about him. He's not Evander Kane or some such. But the lack of playmaking and how he gets the lack of "balance" is part of the nature of the Capitals failures in the playoffs. Him carrying the puck through the NZ and being the zone entry guy from the left side and not being able to do both...not being the start of the rush AND the finish. And that's not a knock on him, there's very few players in history that can routinely start the rush and finish it. The point is, he didn't show the adaptation to moving it and getting it back to finish it. That's why it's no surprise that after a decade of ramming his head into a wall with top-end teams (multiple Presidents' Trophies, yada yada yada) that he and his group got over the top when a puck carrier came into the mix (Evgeny Kuznetsov). It's a graphic (even if not totally obvious) difference, and when you're up at these lofty parts of the list, it sets you back for me...

I think your criticisms of Ovechkin's failure to adapt in the playoffs are on point, especially about failing to recognize he could move the puck and then get it back to finish it. Could you apply similar criticisms to Bobby Hull's playoff career? Hull also only won a single Cup.

Also, I think an all-time finisher like Ovechkin can really put a team over the top from very good to great, as long as he's integrated into the team. See what Mike Bossy did for the Islanders dynasty. Or how valuable Maurice Richard still was later in his career under Toe Blake, scoring 24 goals and 40 points in 30 playoff games from 1956 to 1958. How much of Ovechkin's failure to adapt and play within the team was on him, and how much of it was a coaching failure?
 

Michael Farkas

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Could you apply similar criticisms to Bobby Hull's playoff career? Hull also only won a single Cup.

That's not the takeaway that I got from my viewings, but it's a great question. I found Hull less bound up in his carries for a couple of reasons, he was able to take the puck with more speed (in part because of his own timing, but also because of threat of Pilote), and he established the ice that he wanted which allowed him more freedom to attack the useful part of the ice more often.

So what do I mean by that, it's tough to illustrate in words and I don't have the luxury of going through and editing hours of tape, so I'll pick the first instance I could readily find...if it doesn't start there, we're 33:26 of this video...



Even in open space, there's this horsepower style to him, this play-with-your-hair-on-fire style that is alluring to some but is actually sometimes more clever by half...and this is really what slowed down the Caps in my opinion on those dynamic offensive teams is that they always met a defenseman with positional integrity that could get just enough of him (sometimes holding on for dear life, like when it was Rob Scuderi in '09 ECSF) to be enough...

So, you freeze it on the pass catch. He's got the dot line, and he's got space. One thing that really helped me become a better scout is seeing how players perform in the dots and how they get back into the dots if they're outside of them. I'm not going to give it away now (proprietary, not because I'm some weird conspiracy theorist haha), but I can name you quite a few NHL draft picks for this draft that are "highly skilled" that are going to fail because they cannot work in the middle. There's a huge difference between outside skill and inside skill. Now, of course, Ovechkin has both, he's a beast. But part of what made it easier to defend him is the situation that he put himself in in the NZ. The NZ is a great space. I call it the runway for offense. The more speed you can generate behind the puck in the NZ the more deadly of an attack you have.

So the two points I make there are about attacking the interior and also speed behind the puck. I'll cut the Caps some slack here because head-manning the puck was still alive here (it died in the 2013 ECF very graphically, every coach worth his salt changed his game if he had head-manning still in his playbook after Claude Julien ripped the guts out of the Pittsburgh Penguins on a big stage)...but watch at the pass acceptance. Freeze it. You have the pass catch, good catch on his backhand, he's got the dot line, he's got space...there's no speed behind the puck.

So what I'd want here, is I'd want to establish the dot line as mine. I teach defense these days, we talk about the dot line all the time. You could play on a soccer field, but that doesn't change the area where you can score from. The dot line for those that don't know is if you extend a straight line through each left side faceoff dot (DZ, NZ x2, OZ...same for the right, of course). As a defenseman, you want to establish that as yours and manage that line. As a forward, if you have it first (which Ovechkin does), you want to maintain it and not be pushed into what I call the "gutter" of the rink. The gutter is where things die.

So Ovechkin catch and carry. We're now at 33:29. The defenseman still has not established the dot line, but Ovechkin has conceded it. Now, it's ok to concede it if you are going to generate speed behind the puck. Meaning you really rev it up...and Ovechkin of all players in this era, can really make a defenseman fill his diaper real quick if he starts those yellow laces chuggin' towards you. So what happens when you extend that speed and that dot line established, you put a defenseman on his heels and he has to play with a looser gap. You have the puck and you have taken control of the defenseman now, you dictate the terms. So, where I'd be ok with the dot line concession is if you push that d-man back, get the gap, then pull up and generate speed behind the puck so that this play has support. Support on the zone entry with what I call "new speed" or support through layers in the offensive zone (lanes are vertical, layers are horizontal, each zone is 3x3 in terms of lanes and layers). Let's see what happens...

We're at 33:30 (18.4 on the 1st period clock)...Ovechkin is now well outside the dot. And the defenseman has regained control of the situation because he owns the dot line, Ovechkin offered no real speed differential, no gap to exploit, and as a result, there's really no one around to help him. He gains the line clean and with speed, so that's a plus. But now he has to work back to the inside, which means he has to change his skating rhythm and body direction to do that, which means he has to make almost a pure skill play to get back inside to the ice that was once his...let's see...

At 33:31 (17.5 on the 1st period clock), he actually does a pretty damn good job...as most players wouldn't get that respect. That's why he was good enough, even in these disadvantaged positions, to produce. But ultimately, here is the problem that plagued him and this team. I am right on the trigger pull of the shot. It is just inside the dot line by a hair, there is a defenseman with tight gap and good stick positioning right on top of him, we already know he didn't allow for help and there's still none as Joel Ward at the bottom there has developed Stockholm Syndrome it seems...and now we're talking about a wrist shot from well out on the best goalie of the era...and hell, even sometimes, that goes in...because he's just about the best goal scorer ever...and that's the appeal. But at the same time, this is an illustration of what I talk about and what I look for and how the Kuznetsov effect factors into this and all that...

And I know it's one clip, you don't have to believe me that this happened a lot for a decade, that's your choice. I don't know what other disclaimers you need because it's the internet here...uhhh...I'm not saying this is the only reason I don't have him in the top 15, I'm not saying this didn't also happen to Hull sometimes, or Richard, or Crosby, or Maxim Afinogenov, or anyone...I'm not saying the Capitals would have been better off without him or anything of the sort...the disclaimers are more exhausting than the game film stuff haha...
 
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Sentinel

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I can't think of a good comparable to what Ovechkin is doing now. And a reason why is - because what Ovechkin is doing now is pretty unprecedented. Who else was scoring ~50 goals and winning rockets at his age, even moreso in a lower scoring era. But here's a few attempts are comparisons for overall scoring at similar age:

Mark Messier. At age 33 - he finished 30th in scoring. At age 32 he finished 31st in scoring. No hart consideration either year.
Ovechkin at age 33 finished 15th in scoring and 7th in hart voting. At age 32 finished 11th in scoring, and 9th in hart voting.

Messier was voted 1 spot ahead of Ovechkin in our top 100 list, so a good comparable.

If you want to go up even higher.
Gretzky - age 34. 19th in scoring. No hart consideration.

I'd say what Ovechkin is still doing today at his age is pretty incredible. And I'd say his hart placement are a good representation of what his season is worth overall. Not best in league - but top ~7-10 or so, pretty consistently, which has value.

If we restrict the conversation strictly to goal-scoring (and who the best/greatest goal-scorer is) i'd say his rocket win and 48 goal total at age 34 is very significant.
I can think of one man: Gordie Howe. He won the Retro Richard in 1962-63 with 38 goals. He was 35 years old. He also won the Art Ross and the Hart that year.
 
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Dennis Bonvie

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The Maurice Richard talk is a little bit more in line with where Ovechkin is for me. Bobby Hull is just too lofty. Richard had similar limitations, similar strengths, and, squinting, a similar style to Ovechkin...Richard was a better for his team as a three-line puck carrier probably, Ovechkin was a more powerful forecheck hitter...playoffs is a little tough because Richard played with a wagon...Ovechkin played with a very strong team, but it wasn't the 50's Canadiens...if I'm unwilling to put all the praise on Richard for the Canadiens success then I can't dump all the failing for the Caps on Ovechkin. Richard led the league twice in very, very "meh" times...maybe a third. Ovechkin just leads the league whenever he wants...so point Ovechkin there.

That said, this style of player (looping in Richard and Ovechkin into the same frame here) is the type of player that I find to be the most overrated by fans. That doesn't mean they're bad, but I don't view the game through the entertainment lens...I look at it through a coaching/scouting lens, that's why I'm a nut for the eye test and watching players. When I went back and watched Richard, I railed against him in our top 100 project. The fact that he was ever in the discussion for 5th best of all time is a miss in my opinion. That said, he was probably the most technically skilled player in history up until 1950 as well. It's a complicated position to try to write out. It's weird to say things like "you can only use this player for so much on the rink as a whole" because it makes it sound like we're talking about Jay Beagle...but I mean it in the context of the greatest players in history.

And, just to say the words again, if you value this style of player. That's fine. That's a valid opinion. At the end of the day, he's doing the thing that costs the most money in the game: throwing the puck into the net at, seemingly, will...it's unclear if anyone has done it better than him (either him in this case)...that's perfectly reasonable criteria if you want that and value that over two-way defensemen, two-way forwards, balanced offensive forwards, goalies (especially), etc. There's a logical consistency that needs to be met with that for the rest of your list. You can't love Ovechkin and hate Richard. You can't love Richard and hate Ovechkin as a player. Relative to the field, I don't have either in my top 10...I don't see a path for them to get there in all likelihood either. But I have like 7 of my 13 as defensemen, which virtually no one else has. That's how I view the game and what's valuable.

At the same time, trying to lawyer and word-game people into submission is an out-of-ideas idea. Ovechkin, again, in the lens of the top 20, 40, 50 whatever players of all time, is not a balanced offensive attacker. He is used and uses his best weapon: his shooting prowess. He can beat goalies clean with a wrist shot - most guys can't do that. He can sit there in the same spot for 15 years and blast one-timers past goalies and no one can stop him...hell, they added another team to the league and pitted them against him to stop him and couldn't. He's a talented player. But let's not pretend he's some elite level playmaker either from a passing perspective. I know he has made a pass before. I know he has made good ones because he is talented that's why we're talking about him. He's not Evander Kane or some such. But the lack of playmaking and how he gets the lack of "balance" is part of the nature of the Capitals failures in the playoffs. Him carrying the puck through the NZ and being the zone entry guy from the left side and not being able to do both...not being the start of the rush AND the finish. And that's not a knock on him, there's very few players in history that can routinely start the rush and finish it. The point is, he didn't show the adaptation to moving it and getting it back to finish it. That's why it's no surprise that after a decade of ramming his head into a wall with top-end teams (multiple Presidents' Trophies, yada yada yada) that he and his group got over the top when a puck carrier came into the mix (Evgeny Kuznetsov). It's a graphic (even if not totally obvious) difference, and when you're up at these lofty parts of the list, it sets you back for me...

All I can say about Rocket Richard is that he scored 82 goals in 132 playoff games. Playing in the 40s and 50s. Fourth all-time in goals per game in the playoffs. Playing in the 40s and 50s.

And was on 8 Cup winners. He retired and the Canadiens didn't win another Cup for 5 years. At that time, that was a drought for Montreal.
 

Sentinel

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All I can say about Rocket Richard is that he scored 82 goals in 132 playoff games. Playing in the 40s and 50s. Fourth all-time in goals per game in the playoffs. Playing in the 40s and 50s.
That last point takes away from him more than adds to him. The 40s were superweak, and he still managed to win only ONE Hart and ZERO Art Rosses. I hold playoffs in higher esteem than most people, but Ovechkin's accomplishments have clearly left Richard in the dust. Richard is overrated anyway.

And was on 8 Cup winners. He retired and the Canadiens didn't win another Cup for 5 years. At that time, that was a drought for Montreal.
By this rationale, Lanny McDonald is even better. He retired, and the Flames never won another Cup.

This was one of the craziest posts in this crazy thread. :eek::eek::eek:
 
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Oheao

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Honestly, I thought he was terrible until he won his 9th Rocket. I mean, he didn't have a very impressive career before this but this year he was just really so much more outstanding than before.
 
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Oheao

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That last point takes away from him more than adds to him. The 40s were superweak, and he still managed to win only ONE Hart and ONE Art Ross. I hold playoffs in higher esteem than most people, but Ovechkin's accomplishments have clearly left Richard in the dust. Richard is overrated anyway.


By this rationale, Lanny McDonald is even better. He retired, and the Flames never won another Cup.

This was one of the craziest posts in this crazy thread. :eek::eek::eek:
Richard never won the Art Ross
 

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