Proposal: OTT-TOR (Blockbuster)

[Moorpheus*]

Wow tough one

I dont thinks the leafs will want to let go a 1st pick overall even for a top D like Karlsson... Too much potential IMO.

I would like to get opinion of both fan bases if you replace matthews with nylander ....just for fun....

Ez no from Ottawa, I would do that in a heartbeat from t.o.

Matthews is a no go though, not without ek having a contract which would make it very tough.

 

[Randy Randerson]

Disagree with the offense part. As an example, I consider Vlasic to be a legitimate #1D which you can win a Stanley Cup with. Johansen was more established as a #1C than Jones was established as a #1D (He isn't) so that deal shows that Columbus valued Jones' potential over Johansens track record.

Players like Seguin, Carter, M.Richards, Spezza, Johansen and others were traded despite being #1Cs. I can't even think of the last time a legitimate #1 D got moved (Pronger? Boyle?).

I disagree with the whole 30 teams = 30 #1Cs & 30 #1Ds. Yes technically players have to fill that role but I'm linking that position to a team looking to succeed. Some players are in positions that they simply can't handle.

#1Ds are harder to acquire/draft than #1Cs.

ppg was just a starting point, mostly because it was easy, and I agree that there are other considerations for dmen. I don't think Vlasic types are #1's though, guys like him and Tanev are very important players but they aren't the guys you put on the ice in PP situations or when you're down by a goal with 2 mins to play - I think your #1 needs to be able to do those things or they're only taking on part of the role (which I think can be done effectively with the right personnel, but if it has to be by committee then you don't have a complete #1)

Seguin I agree with but that was an instantly regrettable trade, Richards and Carter were an off-ice problem so I don't think their trades were hockey motivated, Johansen got dealt for a very good young RHD with huge potential who's close to fulfilling that potential.

PK Subban, Shea Weber, I'd call Jones one, Dan Boyle a few times in his career, Brian Campbell in his hay day a few times too, Brent Burns, Keith Yandle - lots of examples. Pronger I'd call better than a #1, he's a franchise type too

There are 30 (soon to be 31) of each of those jobs, so by definition the top 30 (or 31) guys are worthy of being #1's. There's a portion of the list that changes from year to year, so I agree that there's only a portion of the top 30 in each position that you'd be comfortable being your #1, but I counted at least 20 on each of my lists

#1D's are easier to draft than #1C's - Letang, PK, Buff, Weber, Yandle, Keith, Josi, Markov, Faulk, Parayko, Brodie, Giordano are all guys from after the 1st round. Many of those guys are near the top of the list of NHL Defensemen, multiple norris winners. Some of those guys are debatable as #1D's

the list of Centres from after the 1st round isn't nearly as impressive: Pavelski, Krejci, Ribeiro, Bergeron, Stastny. I think pretty much all of these guys are as debatable as #1C's, most are probably good enough but there's no franchise player here

I omitted the guys who retired in the last few years: Datsyuk, Elias, Lidstrom, etc

They're both hard to acquire for sure, but if I have to choose which hole I get left with I'd prefer the #1D spot, throw a ton of draft picks at it and pray - because it's easier to find them without really high picks

 

[Batrous]

no

no

(shortest I can go ... apparently)

 

[Spirit of 67]

Provided Ottawa does not want to pay Karlsson what they think he will ask when he become a UFA or they think Karlsson may walk regardless of that:



Auston Matthews
Morgan Rielly



Erik Karlsson
Marc Methot

Sens rationale: Need to trade Karlsson in this situation, and need an elite piece that is young coming back in the trade. This gives them that, and a top pairing defenseman to replace Karlsson.

They trade a valuable piece in Methot that they will not be able to protect in the expansion draft.

Leafs rationale: They immediately become competitive and their blueline woes are solved. They can likely compete for a cup before all of their players ELCs are up and they start making higher salaries with higher cap hits.

This deal would obviously require the Leafs to be able to negotiate an extension with Karlsson before the trade.

Thoughts?

https://media.giphy.com/media/dC9DTdqPmRnlS/giphy.gif

 

[Omac13]

Provided Ottawa does not want to pay Karlsson what they think he will ask when he become a UFA or they think Karlsson may walk regardless of that:



Auston Matthews
Morgan Rielly



Erik Karlsson
Marc Methot

Sens rationale: Need to trade Karlsson in this situation, and need an elite piece that is young coming back in the trade. This gives them that, and a top pairing defenseman to replace Karlsson.

They trade a valuable piece in Methot that they will not be able to protect in the expansion draft.

Leafs rationale: They immediately become competitive and their blueline woes are solved. They can likely compete for a cup before all of their players ELCs are up and they start making higher salaries with higher cap hits.

This deal would obviously require the Leafs to be able to negotiate an extension with Karlsson before the trade.

Thoughts?

Hahahahahahahahaha

Not a chance the Leafs would do that.

 

[therealkoho]

I'd prefer to sign him in free agency

nah were saving the $$$'s for Johnny T

 

[KevinRedkey]

nah were saving the $$$'s for Johnny T

Do you actually believe this?

 

[slimbob8]

That's true, but even in a couple of years the leafs would be better with Karlsson than with Matthews. Leafs are not getting anywhere with Rielly as their top defenseman. But they can survive without Matthews since they have some other skill offensive players.

A top defenseman is harder to find than a 1C.

The plan isn't just to get better. The plan is to build a team that's capable of contending for a cup for the next decade. You absolutely need a star #1C to do that now. They'll get their defense sorted out one way or another; I'm not worried about that. What they won't get however is another shot at a franchise C.

 

[therealkoho]

Do you actually believe this?

really?

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

Matthews has much more value. He's the perfect franchise #1C. He's also very cost controllable for the next 7 years at least. Karlsson is a flawed #1D (granted probably the most exciting to watch #1D in the league by far) and is a pending UFA.

Then there's Rielly who is currently a #2D at worst, with #1D upside, and is locked up for 6 years at an absolute steal of a $5M AAV. Far more valuable than Methot.

You're right, Ottawa would be stupid not to do this. But Toronto would be stupid to do this

Harrison you really don't know what the hell you're talking about. If you think that Auston Matthews can fetch Karlsson you're out of your mind.

 

[AINEC*]

Ottawa is poverty as hell, just wait for Karlsson to walk away from whatever lowball over they send his way in free agency.

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

Ottawa is poverty as hell, just wait for Karlsson to walk away from whatever lowball over they send his way in free agency.

Right just like how they lowballed Ryan, Hoffman, Stone, MacAthur, Ceci...

Ottawa's has always payed up when it comes time to resign players, but go ahead keep talking like you actually know something.

 

[HarrisonFord]

Harrison you really don't know what the hell you're talking about. If you think that Auston Matthews can fetch Karlsson you're out of your mind.

I do actually. Plus I don't think the Sens can afford to sign EK and keep a competitive roster with how much of the internal cap he'll cost

 

[81Leafs50]

Auston Matthews
Morgan Rielly



Erik Karlsson
Marc Methot

Thoughts?

THIS IS BLASPHEMY!!!!

 

[CamelToews]

Wow

 

[SensNation613]

ppg was just a starting point, mostly because it was easy, and I agree that there are other considerations for dmen. I don't think Vlasic types are #1's though, guys like him and Tanev are very important players but they aren't the guys you put on the ice in PP situations or when you're down by a goal with 2 mins to play - I think your #1 needs to be able to do those things or they're only taking on part of the role (which I think can be done effectively with the right personnel, but if it has to be by committee then you don't have a complete #1)

Seguin I agree with but that was an instantly regrettable trade, Richards and Carter were an off-ice problem so I don't think their trades were hockey motivated, Johansen got dealt for a very good young RHD with huge potential who's close to fulfilling that potential.

PK Subban, Shea Weber, I'd call Jones one, Dan Boyle a few times in his career, Brian Campbell in his hay day a few times too, Brent Burns, Keith Yandle - lots of examples. Pronger I'd call better than a #1, he's a franchise type too

There are 30 (soon to be 31) of each of those jobs, so by definition the top 30 (or 31) guys are worthy of being #1's. There's a portion of the list that changes from year to year, so I agree that there's only a portion of the top 30 in each position that you'd be comfortable being your #1, but I counted at least 20 on each of my lists

#1D's are easier to draft than #1C's - Letang, PK, Buff, Weber, Yandle, Keith, Josi, Markov, Faulk, Parayko, Brodie, Giordano are all guys from after the 1st round. Many of those guys are near the top of the list of NHL Defensemen, multiple norris winners. Some of those guys are debatable as #1D's

the list of Centres from after the 1st round isn't nearly as impressive: Pavelski, Krejci, Ribeiro, Bergeron, Stastny. I think pretty much all of these guys are as debatable as #1C's, most are probably good enough but there's no franchise player here

I omitted the guys who retired in the last few years: Datsyuk, Elias, Lidstrom, etc

They're both hard to acquire for sure, but if I have to choose which hole I get left with I'd prefer the #1D spot, throw a ton of draft picks at it and pray - because it's easier to find them without really high picks

Subban and Weber don't count as they were traded for each other. Jones was not a #1D when traded and he still isn't. I admit that Boyle was a 1D but the rest simply weren't (Burns/Campbell/Yandle).

You know where to draft 1Cs but 1Ds are tougher to choose as they develop more in their 20s than when they're 16-18. If anything, later round steals aren't easier to draft because the decision becomes much tougher. 80% of people know who will be the top 10-15 in the draft but after that, it becomes difficult to draft some guys over others. It's why the best forwards in the game as usually top 3 picks (McDavid/Ovechkin/Crosby/Malkin) but the defensemen can vary from high picks to lowest rounds.

I do actually. Plus I don't think the Sens can afford to sign EK and keep a competitive roster with how much of the internal cap he'll cost

That's fine dude. We know we'll resign him while keeping a competitive team. Budget hasn't forced us to lose anyone of value and certainly won't cause us to lose the best defenseman in the NHL.

 

[Damisoph]

Unrealistic, laughable proposal. Much like the rest of the forum.

 

[Rhaegar Targaryen]

Right just like how they lowballed Ryan, Hoffman, Stone, MacAthur, Ceci...

Ottawa's has always payed up when it comes time to resign players, but go ahead keep talking like you actually know something.

Exactly.

People act like the Sens will give Karlsson $7M max and he'll run away. We gave Bobby Ryan a $7.25M contract. We gave MacArthur and Methot $5M+ each. Karlsson is the face of the franchise. There's no chance the Sens will 'lowball' him. The only way he'll leave is if he wants to, and he's given us no reason to believe that.

 

[Randy Randerson]

Subban and Weber don't count as they were traded for each other. Jones was not a #1D when traded and he still isn't. I admit that Boyle was a 1D but the rest simply weren't (Burns/Campbell/Yandle).

You know where to draft 1Cs but 1Ds are tougher to choose as they develop more in their 20s than when they're 16-18. If anything, later round steals aren't easier to draft because the decision becomes much tougher. 80% of people know who will be the top 10-15 in the draft but after that, it becomes difficult to draft some guys over others. It's why the best forwards in the game as usually top 3 picks (McDavid/Ovechkin/Crosby/Malkin) but the defensemen can vary from high picks to lowest rounds.

If you're calling 60+pt centres 1C's, you've gotta call 50+pt dmen #1D's, Campbell and Yandle were stars when they were traded, Burns was just coming into his own but was coming of a 46pt year, he's a #1 at that point (also got a top prospect+1st round pick+top 6 winger in return). If we're talking about franchise level talent, there's only a couple of examples like Seguin...which again, was instantly condemned and regretted, and he hadn't achieved it at the time of the trade. I can't think of another franchise level centre that's been traded since Thornton, and Pronger got dealt 3 times since that happened, so I don't see it being more rare to find a franchise D in trades than franchise C either - both are extremely rare

I'm not saying it's easy to develop a #1D, but the picks that you can get them with are much much easier to acquire. If I have to choose which hole I have I'll take the #1D spot, then just continually spend a few picks of each draft on high ceiling dmen. I think there's a lot of luck involved in any draftee turning into a star who isn't taken very high, so I'm of the opinion that you throw a lot against the wall and see what sticks

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

I do actually. Plus I don't think the Sens can afford to sign EK and keep a competitive roster with how much of the internal cap he'll cost

You're in a real bad "I hate the Sens and I'm not afraid to show it" mood aren't you? Probably has something to do with the standings. Fact is if you seriously think Ottawa would be stupid not to trade Karlsson for Matthews then you really don't know what you're talking about, and I don't really care if you think you do.

 

[OmniSens]

Both teams easily say no.