OT: MLB commish - Las Vegas being considered for expansion team

[Bucky_Hoyt]

Whitecaps owner Greg Kerfoot still owns the land proposed for a whitecaps stadium next to the Seabus station

It’s very similar to Seattle and San Francisco’s locations for Major league Ballparks

I can’t think of. A better location available in Vancouver

I think the bigger issue with Vancouver is the affordability crisis.

It is literally one of the top 5 LEAST affordable cities in the developed world now.

Who would sink roughly CAD $3bln (expansion fee, land fee, stadium fee, farm system) for a team in Vancouver?

And, who's going to stretch their entertainment budget dollars for a baseball team there? You'll need about 30k a game for 81+ dates to be reasonably healthy.

The MLS team and CFL are relativley affordable and have (in one incarnation or another) been in the market for decades.

The Caps and Lions also have combined about 30 home dates a year averaging about 21K a game between them in a recently refurbished stadium.

 

[crobro]

I was just highlighting available land in Vancouver for a baseball stadium

Can you think of a better location?

 

[Bucky_Hoyt]

I was just highlighting available land in Vancouver for a baseball stadium

Can you think of a better location?

Location-wise (if money is no object), it would be nice but will overhang into the water.

Before the new St. Paul's Hospital was built, I would have suggested there.

Aside from that, it's quite limited.

 

[DoyleG]

I think the bigger issue with Vancouver is the affordability crisis.

It is literally one of the top 5 LEAST affordable cities in the developed world now.

Who would sink roughly CAD $3bln (expansion fee, land fee, stadium fee, farm system) for a team in Vancouver?

And, who's going to stretch their entertainment budget dollars for a baseball team there? You'll need about 30k a game for 81+ dates to be reasonably healthy.

The MLS team and CFL are relativley affordable and have (in one incarnation or another) been in the market for decades.

The Caps and Lions also have combined about 30 home dates a year averaging about 21K a game between them in a recently refurbished stadium.

The issue is that you missed the point of what he was saying.

The Caps still own the waterfront property that would be ideal for a baseball stadium. The Caps stadium proposal was for the stadium to be privately funded and to house the same events that BC Place already gets. It didn't go through because of NIMBY politics that are in the section of Vancouver in question (The MPs that get elected from there, DTES Activists, etc). Many of the same people are also responsible for the "affordability" issues in Vancouver as they don't want to address it.

Vancouver is a larger region than when the NBA was in town and would benefit if the MLB team is in the AL to allow the Jays and M's to build up rivalries.

 

[garnetpalmetto]

Ok...but they still have to build a baseball stadium.

They're on the hook to build one and I don't think it's broken ground yet. Their current park, Wolff Stadium is currently home to the Double-A San Antonio Missions. However, the Triple-A Colorado Springs Sky Sox have announced they're relocating to San Antonio next season (with the Double-A franchise shifting over to Amarillo, TX). Initially they'll also play out of Wolff but talk of a new park was the bait that Elmore Sports Group, who owns the Sky Sox and the Missions, bit on to start the shift. I don't believe the new park has been designed or construction started on it so it's possible they could build in some room to expand it.

 

[Bucky_Hoyt]

The issue is that you missed the point of what he was saying.

The Caps still own the waterfront property that would be ideal for a baseball stadium. The Caps stadium proposal was for the stadium to be privately funded and to house the same events that BC Place already gets. It didn't go through because of NIMBY politics that are in the section of Vancouver in question (The MPs that get elected from there, DTES Activists, etc). Many of the same people are also responsible for the "affordability" issues in Vancouver as they don't want to address it.

Vancouver is a larger region than when the NBA was in town and would benefit if the MLB team is in the AL to allow the Jays and M's to build up rivalries.

I doubt Kerfoot and the rest of the ownership group would be able to afford buying into an MLB franchise . They wouldn't sell the land for a song, either.

Do realise that Kerfoot and his ownership group could afford the investment in MLS when they bought in because it was cheaper to do so. Was 35 million if I remember. Now cities like Nashville are on the hook for 150+ million. They probably couldn't afford to buy in now.

BTW, the Whitecaps are the third lowest valued franchise in the MLS.

Now talking stadium and expansion costs...

Even if you own the land and can get politicians to back off, constructing an MLB stadium is a LOT more expensive than the soccer stadium proposal from 15 years ago. Easily looking at just shy of a billion for open air stadium and probably 20-30% more if a retractable roof is added.

And how about those expansion fees...?

Steve Ballmer rocked the sports world by grossly overpaying for the Clippers. The precedent is set and if a second-tier league like the NHL is asking for half a billion, what can we expect an MLB expansion fee to go for? 1 billion? 2 billion? More?

And what about those money-spending fans...

Sure, metro Vancouver has a few hundred thousand more people than in the late 90s (most American and Canadian cities have grown, too). But, and this is the big one, the region was a LOT more affordable to live in back then.

The average home income level is slightly higher than metro Columbus now but the cost of living is close to the Bay Area's.

I don't see a lot of Googles, Apples, Wells Fargos and Facebooks popping up in Metro Vancouver. So, where is the money going to come from for people to afford to buy up 30k seats a game over 80 times a year at a median ticket price of, say, 70 bucks?

Baseball isn't as cheap as it used to be, either and if you're an owner (or ownership group) sinking 3-billion into a team, you're not going to sell at bargain basement ticket prices.

Simply put, metro Vancouver's population cannot afford an MLB team.

Sounds like a "dream," dunnit?

 

[StreetHawk]

None of them have a stadium, and that's not a "big deal." No one NEEDS an MLB sized stadium until they get an MLB team.

A number of minor league cities have built stadiums that are "half MLB stadiums," where there's not much beyond the OF fence and they could conceivably erect something out there to reach MLB average level in a hurry, while they build an actual MLB stadium.





MLB "needs" to expand because 30 teams and 15 in each league is just silly, bad and unnecessarily complicated.

All kinds of silly problems can be traced to the Tampa situation as the root cause. MLB wants Montreal back, wants a configuration that's easy to schedule, and so they need a 32nd.

If they get to 32 teams, it would be split into 8 divisions of 4 teams.

NL West still would have SF/LA/SD/AZ or COL
AL West would go SEA/OAK/LAA/ (expansion team if POR/LV get one, otherwise should be AZ or COL)

Then you go mid west, Central, North East and maybe south? Toronto would plead to get out of the division with NY and Boston. Certain Baltimore would too and TB.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

If they get to 32 teams, it would be split into 8 divisions of 4 teams.

NL West still would have SF/LA/SD/AZ or COL
AL West would go SEA/OAK/LAA/ (expansion team if POR/LV get one, otherwise should be AZ or COL)

Then you go mid west, Central, North East and maybe south? Toronto would plead to get out of the division with NY and Boston. Certain Baltimore would too and TB.

dont see it happening.

if it goes to an 8x4 alignment, no doubt the AL East becomes BOS, NYY, TOR, BAL

 

[BKIslandersFan]

Uh...baseball on the whole? You can't have an MLB team without a Triple-A affiliate. Unlike hockey, baseball is locked into each MLB team having full farm systems - each MLB team has 1 Triple-A team, 1 Double-A team, 1 Advanced-A team, and 1 Low-A team as well as a team at either (or both) the Short Season-A and/or Advanced Rookie levels.

If MLB moves into Omaha, the Storm Chasers would have to find somewhere else to go for KC to have a Triple-A affiliate AND the new Omaha MLB team would have to find a Triple-A market as well.

You really think finding a place for AAA team is going to stop MLB from expanding to new markets?

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

You really think finding a place for AAA team is going to stop MLB from expanding to new markets?

you missed the point... that is a rule.....you forget Minor League Baseball is operational/existing

 

[BKIslandersFan]

you missed the point... that is a rule.....

I am saying to you, it’s not gonna be the roadblock that stops expansion.

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

I am saying to you, it’s not gonna be the roadblock that stops expansion.

again, you struck yourself out, BK, SHOW THE FORUM WHERE Major league baseball has CONFIRMED expansion to 32....

 

[BKIslandersFan]

again, you struck yourself out, BK, SHOW THE FORUM WHERE Major league baseball has CONFIRMED expansion to 32....

Where did I say they did? All I am saying is with billions of dollars at stake, if they want to expand AAA team issue isn’t going to be the thing that stops them from expanding.

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

Where did I say they did? All I am saying is with billions of dollars at stake, if they want to expand AAA team issue isn’t going to be the thing that stops them from expanding.

prove it

 

[BKIslandersFan]

prove it

Good lord man.

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

Good lord man.

you're advocating 32, SHOW US WHERE and you struck out with Minor League Baseball being advised....

 

[BKIslandersFan]

you're advocating 32, SHOW US WHERE and you struck out with Minor League Baseball being advised....

Where am i advocating for 32?

 

[garnetpalmetto]

I am saying to you, it’s not gonna be the roadblock that stops expansion.

I don't think I properly made my point. I'll readily agree that t's not an impediment to MLB expanding into a Triple-A market (nor has it been in the past - Denver and Phoenix were both Triple-A markets when they got their expansion teams and Miami was an A-ball market), it's just a consideration.

I mean it more from the standpoint that for baseball and local governments on the whole the cost of an expansion is born by more than just the new MLB markets but that new MLB markets also necessitate new MiLB markets and that raiding lower class leagues for those markets further magnifies it. Let's say, for instance, Vegas and Nashville are the choices for expansion - that would require four new Triple-A markets - two for the Vegas and Nashville MLB clubs and two for their present Triple-A teams to move to. Meanwhile, if the expansion were to, say, Montreal and Portland only two new Triple-A markets would be needed. To some extent, I figure that other markets would get "called up" - historically well-attended teams at lower levels of affiliated ball or currently in independent ball like Dayton (Low-A), Frisco (Double-A), Madison (Indy), and Reading (Double-A) can and will move up. However, in a sense that also passes the buck as now the Midwest League would then need a replacement market for Dayton, the Texas League a replacement for Frisco, and the Eastern League a replacement for Reading.

Again, I don't think it's an impediment at all, but just something MLB (and, in turn, MiLB) would have to consider. For some expansion is just as simple as plopping down two MLB franchises. I'm only pointing out that it both is and isn't that simple and the effects of an expansion are a bit like throwing a rock in a pond - the largest ripples are usually the ones further from the point of impact.

 

[End on a Hinote]

BTW, the Whitecaps are the third lowest valued franchise in the MLS.

Had to look it up and its actually true. Kind of disappointing to see. Why is that? They have such a big, passionate fanbase and to be that low, lower than some much smaller markets, makes me curious as to why that is.

 

[KevFu]

I'll readily agree that it's not an impediment to MLB expanding into a Triple-A market (nor has it been in the past - Denver and Phoenix were both Triple-A markets when they got their expansion teams and Miami was an A-ball market), it's just a consideration.

MLB markets also necessitate new MiLB markets and that raiding lower class leagues for those markets further magnifies it.

… say, Montreal and Portland only two new Triple-A markets would be needed. To some extent, I figure that other markets would get "called up"

However, in a sense that also passes the buck as now the Midwest League would then need a replacement market for Dayton, the Texas League a replacement for Frisco, and the Eastern League a replacement for Reading.

Again, I don't think it's an impediment at all, but just something MLB (and, in turn, MiLB) would have to consider. For some expansion is just as simple as plopping down two MLB franchises. I'm only pointing out that it both is and isn't that simple and the effects of an expansion are a bit like throwing a rock in a pond - the largest ripples are usually the ones further from the point of impact.

(I was totally confused by the brief feud over details, thanks for straightening that out).

Most people talking MLB expansion simply “don’t care” about the after-shocks trickling through the minors. The trickle-down Minor League expansion has always sorted itself out, usually in the very messy way that the pre-existing external relationships and obligations create. There’s no reason it would change.

The “Concern” of “where you going to place 10 new minor league teams?” isn’t quite as “challenging” as it seems for a couple of reasons.

#1 - Montreal is going to be Team #31. I think Manfred’s comments are about trying to find #32. So that’s only 3 new Triple A teams max, not four. And the dominoes go from there. And obviously, Geography could involve more untapped Canadian markets, like Ottawa. As the Expos would want to keep their team close and spread their brand.

#2 - The Geography Problem for Major League teams and their minor league affiliates has led to a lot more MLB teams owning minor league teams. The NY Mets bought the Syracuse Chiefs because they were sick of “losing” the game of musical chairs and having their Triple-A team in New Orleans and Las Vegas in 10 of the last 12 years.

#3 - Combining those two, finding the ownership groups to apply for minor league teams is going to be very easy, because there’s going to be a lot of MLB owners lining up. And their motivation for doing so won’t be “making money” but improving the geography of their minor league teams and “spreading their brand influence.”

#4 - A big reason for #3 is the Minor League rules on where franchises can be limits new independent opportunities. You need permission to be within 50 miles of someone else. There are minor league teams in Gwinnett, Lehigh Valley, Staten Island and Brooklyn because an MLB owner owns them and gave himself permission.

It IS possible to create two new teams with no “new markets” added: within 50 miles of Los Angeles, New York, Chicago and the Bay Area.

Guiliani wanted redevelopment in Staten Island and thought a minor league baseball team would work, but he couldn’t get anything done for the 1998 expansion and talking to the Yankees, discovered the 50-mile rule. So he called the Mets, who’s owner is a Brooklyn native and grew up watching the Dodgers. And Guiliani said “I want a minor league team for Staten Island so I can revitalize the area, but can’t get that done without you. How about you bring a team to Brooklyn? We’ll give you a sweet lease for a Coney Island ballpark to revitalize THAT area, too. Everyone wins.”

And there's been some talk of the NY teams wanting to move Staten and Brooklyn UP the ladders and be AA or AAA instead of A.

The most interesting conversation for the minor leagues probably wouldn’t be “where do we find 10 teams?” but more likely the “West Coast wants a AA League” conversation. Most the prospects of baseball are in AA. And all the West Coast minor league teams are AAA or A. And quite frankly, it makes the most sense to have your prospects move geographically closer and closer to the MLB cities as they move closer and closer to the MLB by development.

 

[adsfan]

I have seen a lot of MLB expansion. Baseball would follow the NFL with 8 x 4 divisions.

1) If Las Vegas gets a MLB team, it would take 2 to 3 years to build an indoor stadium. My guess is 3 years unless they have a site near a freeway today.
Las Vegas would be close to the California teams and Arizona, making for shorter travel.

2) Portland could be a possibility. It would give Seattle and Oakland a geographic rival in the AL, or give the NL a team in the Pacific Northwest.
Seattle is an outpost city in MLB. Something should be done about it. The Bay Area has the closest teams and SF is 800 miles away.

3) If Las Vegas or Portland became a NL city, the AL would get team 32, perhaps Nashville. Tampa Bay would get a new rival in the southeast.

If Las Vegas or Portland became an AL city, Atlanta (250 miles) and Cincinnati (270 miles) would get a new geographic rival in the NL.

4) Montreal would be an outpost city in the NE. With their weather, you might want an indoor stadium. Olympic Stadium may get a new retractable roof by 2023 for the World Cup in 2026. The estimated cost is $200M over 5 years. There is talk of a new stadium being built. The Big O(we) is over 40 years old. I remember Jarry Park, the original baseball stadium in Montreal. It was awful, as was the weather. You can't play outdoors up there, unless it is hockey.

 

[LadyStanley]

There was a previous discussion of how minor league teams might prevent MLB for getting in.

As the minor league team is building a new stadium (in Summerlin, literally next door to VGK practice facility) I don't know that he powers that be would appreciate such a facility becoming obsolete so soon.

Vegas valley only has 2.2 million or so (and growing -- 6th fastest growing city in US). Not sure there's enough local support for NHL and NFL and another major sports team, sponsorship-wise. (Perhaps a lot more national sponsors?)

 

[KevFu]

I don't see if being Vegas. For the reasons you mentioned (Needing a domed AC stadium, just passed their new minor league park plan, market size)

I could see Vegas being an MLB team in 40-50 years, when the leagues at 36 teams (if they ever get there). But not next.

I want Montreal in the NL, where they belong (or if MLB did my crazy-sounding, but not so crazy Continental League plan). The question of what to do with whomever #32 is also an issue.

It's weird to me that almost everyone in baseball values AL and NL being "separate." The obstacles to a radical realignment are immense, so that's probably not happening. But everyone thinks Portland to the AL with Seattle makes sense. That's opposite of the strategy the AL-NL operated with for 125 years.

 

[Daximus]

Have to think with both the NFL and MLB the market may become over saturated. There are more than enough baseball players to fill roles but I still can't see bottom teams competing with the regularity that NY, Boston, LA and some of the bigger cities do, though they have done better as of late.

 

[gstommylee]

If they go 32 teams and move texas and Houston out of the west, Seattle might actually be making playoffs for once.