Orr Vs Gretzky

[Trottier]

Not that I pretend to know other people's motives per se, but in some cases, it could be the fact that they were young when Orr was in his prime and thus there's a slight element of nostalgia involved (not taking ANYTHING away from Orr), whereas they were older and more cynical (?) and it wasn't the "good ol' NHL" anymore when Gretzky was playing.

Actually, I'd submit that the "Born Yesterday" types on the main board have the market cornered on baseless cynicism.

To be sure, nostalgia plays a part for one who had the privilege of watching Orr, Gretzky, et al, toil. But with unfortunate rare exceptions, I find that "older" folks here also revere today's greats.

On the other hand, Generation Nuuu NHL, with notable, commendable expections, has little to no regard for anything NHL that transpired prior to last week. Just check out the current mind-numbing thread there comparing stars of the 1970 and 80s to average college players, etc.

 

[Briere Up There*]

I hate smilies

If you want to dismiss their opinions as mere nostalgia you're free to.

 

[VMBM]

Sorry my friend, every one knew the only reason why we beat the Soviets was Orr, because only he could skate with them and better than them, even Hull himself said he was better and faster than them on one knee. And still the best player in hockey. Wow one guy says Perrault. i am talking about the players and almost if not all the writers.

BTW, I would advise you to check out the 1987 Canada Cup finals, and especially see what Wayner does there. Now honestly, would, er, you have won without him? I say you would have my a**. And this was against far superior Soviet team than in 1976. IMO bringing up the international heroics isn't the best way to prove Orr's superiority over Gretzky; Orr namely pales in comparison, though through no fault of his own --> it's definitely a shame that Orr couldn't play in 1972, but so it was...

 

[shazariahl]

BTW, I would advise you to check out the 1987 Canada Cup finals, and especially see what Wayner does there. Now honestly, would, er, you have won without him? I say you would have my a**. And this was against far superior Soviet team than in 1976. IMO bringing up the international heroics isn't the best way to prove Orr's superiority over Gretzky; Orr namely pales in comparison, though through no fault of his own --> it's definitely a shame that Orr couldn't play in 1972, but so it was...

Ya, Gretzky was a beast in international play. 4 Canada Cups, led the entire tournament in scoring all 4 times. 2 MVPs (the others went to Tretiak and Ranford), and led Canada in scoring in the 98 Olympics, even though he was a year from retirement. Also led the World Jrs tournament in scoring when he played there at 16.

 

[Merya]

I sorta understand the love Orr has on these boards, same as some others whose careers left a bit of "what if" feeling.

But as a GM of a new team, I'd rather have Gretzky for 16 years than Orr for 8.
Think Chelios, he's been getting tons of crap for past few years, which also lowers him in many peoples' lists. But he was really great for years and really good for many more years, the fact he continued to play past any reasonable age shouldn't take away from his glory. I mean we do not judge Gordie Howe either for playing less important role in his fifties? Right?

Orr could've been the best ever. (altho even there the best peak is Gretzky easily) But could've should've would've isn't in the rink. I've seen this same thing with other (non top 4) players as well. Lindros, Forsberg, Kharlamov, Neely, the list could go on.

ps. a totally random postscriptum, why is Adam Oates so underappreciated?

 

[VMBM]

If you want to dismiss their opinions as mere nostalgia you're free to.

I thought that the "in some cases" would have saved me... but no.

Of course it's not mere nostalgia and I never did/would/should/... claim that.

Ok, no smilies for you!

 

[Briere Up There*]

I thought that the "in some cases" would have saved me... but no.

Of course it's not mere nostalgia and I never did/would/should/... claim that.

Ok, no smilies for you!

Thank you for the no smilies, using them makes me cringe. And sorry, yeah I kind of jumped on you there. Then I became enraged when you rebutted with a smilie. My fault, your point certainly has merit.

 

[85highlander]

Since the general name of this thread is Orr vs. Gretzky, perhaps a contrast of their physical play should warrant some extended discussion.

Bobby Orr:





Wayne Gretzky:



Please Note -- if you feel that the above clips misrepresent either player, please provide some alternate footage.

 

[VMBM]

Orr could've been the best ever. (altho even there the best peak is Gretzky easily) But could've should've would've isn't in the rink. I've seen this same thing with other (non top 4) players as well. Lindros, Forsberg, Kharlamov, Neely, the list could go on.

I don't think Kharlamov is a "what if" player at all, even though I have him 'only' #3 Soviet player of all-time.

Of course, if you punish him for not having played in the NHL... but that's never been much of an issue for me personally.

 

[Ward Cornell]

Not that I pretend to know other people's motives per se, but in some cases, it could be the fact that they were young when Orr was in his prime and thus there's a slight element of nostalgia involved (not taking ANYTHING away from Orr), whereas they were older and more cynical (?) and it wasn't the "good ol' NHL" anymore when Gretzky was playing.

Certainly almost all my favourite players are the ones that I saw in my childhood.

Of course anyone who's seen Bobby Orr play shouldn't be allowed to voice their opinions!
Geesch....since I've followed hockey since the 50's I guess my opinion doesn't matter!
But here it is anyways.....Bobby Orr No.1

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I love physical play as much as anyone. Scott Stevens is my favorite player of all time. Hell, my winning ATd team was built on physical play- first line of busher Jackson, sid Abel and gordie Howe; defense of borje salming, rob Blake, babe siebert, terrible Ted green, battleship leduc.

But penalizing Gretzky for not playing physical? His ellusive style kept him relatively healthy for most of his career, while orr's kamikaze style... We all know what it did to his knees. Gretzky's ellusiveness is part of what made him so great, IMO

 

[Canadiens1958]

Paul Coffey EFfect

It's interesting that you didn't mention Gretzky dominating the defensive zone. He didn't really have much of an impact in the defensive zone.

Perhaps the Paul Coffey effect. Forwards on teams with great offensive and/or defensive defensemen tend to be less visible in the defensive zone.

 

[Canadiens1958]

First QBs on Defense

The "copycat" effect is definitely an interesting one over time.

I know scoring hit its lowest point ever in the early 1950s, after the 1940s Leafs dynasty beat everyone up with smothering defense.

But then the best two teams in the 1950s were the two most offensive minded teams (the Tommy Ivan Red Wings and the Toe Blake Canadiens), and scoring increased over the course of the decade into the 1960s.

The Leafs dynasty coincided with the arrival of the first QB defensemen - Kelly,Harvey, Gadsby plus the emphasis on the power play.

Montreal's offense spiked when Blake replaced Irvin and gave the players more offensive freedom.

 

[Rhiessan71]

Perhaps the Paul Coffey effect. Forwards on teams with great offensive and/or defensive defensemen tend to be less visible in the defensive zone.

I don't think that's it at all in this case.
If Gretzky put the same effort into preventing goals and digging for pucks in the defensive zone that he did trying to score goals and digging for the puck in the offensive zone....we would definitely remember that for sure.

I mean it's really not hard to remember Forsberg, Fedorov and Yzerman being down low in their own zone fighting for the puck, breaking up plays.
Yet you would have to strain yourself to even remember Gretzky coming back much past his own blueline.

After all, we are talking about a/the hockey genius here and you can't tell me that he couldn't of put some of that genius into the defensive side of the game more often.

 

[Merya]

I don't think Kharlamov is a "what if" player at all, even though I have him 'only' #3 Soviet player of all-time.

Of course, if you punish him for not having played in the NHL... but that's never been much of an issue for me personally.

Perhaps not, but the death at 33 in a car crash will always be remembered alongside his great career in the Soviet uniform. Even if he was at the twilight of his career there's always one to say "what if..."

As to the topic at hand, I posted my old one, but I'll reiterate the issue that most causes me to rank Orr lower than some. Longevity. He played like he played, and with that style you are bound to get hurt. His candle burned so very bright, but a candle so bright also burns shorter time.
The Great One on the other hand had even more brilliant candle for few years, but still managed to cheat time and be top center in the league for 15 years. What was he smoking hurrr hurr hurrr >_< *slaps self*

 

[revolverjgw]

Yet you would have to strain yourself to even remember Gretzky coming back much past his own blueline.

BS. As we speak there's a playoff Oiler game running on the NHL Network pretty much every day, and you can plainly see Gretzky spent quite a bit of time in his own zone, no need to fall back on faulty and biased memories, it's right there on the screen. He's not taking the body or digging pucks out the corner, of course, but he's constantly coming back to take up a passing lane, cover a trailer, gobbling up loose pucks and starting breakouts, etc. No Selke candidate but anything but a defensive liability. Especially during the Cup years.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Separation

I don't think that's it at all in this case.
If Gretzky put the same effort into preventing goals and digging for pucks in the defensive zone that he did trying to score goals and digging for the puck in the offensive zone....we would definitely remember that for sure.

I mean it's really not hard to remember Forsberg, Fedorov and Yzerman being down low in their own zone fighting for the puck, breaking up plays.
Yet you would have to strain yourself to even remember Gretzky coming back much past his own blueline.

After all, we are talking about a/the hockey genius here and you can't tell me that he couldn't of put some of that genius into the defensive side of the game more often.

Rushing defensemen. Not one of the three played with a rushing defenseman like Orr or Coffey. Phil Esposito and Gretzky did.

For the most part in typical game situations, optimal effectiveness requires maximum separation between the the elite center and the elite defenseman. You do not want the two clustered together since it makes the transition game less effective.

 

[Rhiessan71]

BS. As we speak there's a playoff Oiler game running on the NHL Network pretty much every day, and you can plainly see Gretzky spent quite a bit of time in his own zone, no need to fall back on faulty and biased memories, it's right there on the screen. He's not taking the body or digging pucks out the corner, of course, but he's constantly coming back to take up a passing lane, cover a trailer, gobbling up loose pucks and starting breakouts, etc. No Selke candidate but anything but a defensive liability. Especially during the Cup years.

Bure back checked like a fiend in the playoff's too yet he still has the rep of being a huge floater and cherry picker.

That's the difference, Orr played the same whether it was game 3 of the regular season or game 7 of the SCF.
Maybe that did shorten Orr's career but it's also what made him so special.
Orr simply didn't know any other way to play.

 

[Rhiessan71]

Rushing defensemen. Not one of the three played with a rushing defenseman like Orr or Coffey. Phil Esposito and Gretzky did.

For the most part in typical game situations, optimal effectiveness requires maximum separation between the the elite center and the elite defenseman. You do not want the two clustered together since it makes the transition game less effective.

Fedorov and Yzerman didn't just play with a Coffey like rushing dman....they played with Coffey himself.
Stevie also played with Mark Howe and Brad Park early on. Forsberg played more than a few years with Ozolinsh.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Past Prime

Fedorov and Yzerman didn't just play with a Coffey like rushing dman....they played with Coffey himself.
Stevie also played with Mark Howe and Brad Park early on. Forsberg played more than a few years with Ozolinsh.

Coffey was past prime,while Park and Howe were significantly past prime. Ozolinsh won't even get a sniff of the HHOF.

 

[VMBM]

Of course anyone who's seen Bobby Orr play shouldn't be allowed to voice their opinions!
Geesch....since I've followed hockey since the 50's I guess my opinion doesn't matter!

Exactly.

*frustrated as hell*

 

[bleeney]

This is a horrendous comparison and a perfect example of why comparing stats per game over an entire career doesn't work.

Bobby Orr's entire season was his prime. Orr played for 8 years. Gretzky for 18. Gretzky was a shell of his former self for at least the last 5 years of his career. You want to make it a fair comparison? Compare Gretzky's first 8 years with Orr's 8 years. Orr might still come out ahead, but I'm sure it will be a lot closer.

Wait a minute...

Orr's entire career was in his prime? Excuse me??

Orr played through horrific injuries throughout his entire career. Some examples:

Dec. 4/66: In the 2nd period of the game, he strained an internal ligament as he was hit into the boards by Maple Leafs Marcel Pronovost. Missed eight games with knee injury.

June 1967: Hurt his right knee in a collision with teammate Bob Leiter during a charity game, He ended up with a cast on his leg due to the injury. Dr. John Palmer at the Toronto General Hospital did the honours.

Dec 9/67: He was flattened by Maple Leaf Frank Mahovlich and suffered a broken collarbone and a separated shoulder. He missed the next six games.

Jan. 16/68: Reinjured his shoulder during All-Star game. Missed four more games

Feb 10/68: At the game against the Red Wings, his knee joint locked up and he had to skate off the ice and limp back to the dressing room. This injury caused him to miss the next 17 games. Was admitted to the Newton-Wellesley Hospital in Boston. Dr. Ronald Adams did the honours of surgically repairing a torn cartilage in his left knee.

June 17/68: His left knee bothering him again, he went back to surgery with Dr. John Palmer at the Toronto General Hospital. A bone chip was removed that was left behind during his operation in February.

Jan 30/69: During the game against the Kings at the Forum, he was skating backwards on a routine play when his left skate caught in a crack on the ice. His knee twisted and he felt the twinge instantly, but he stayed in the game till the end. This knee injury caused him to miss the next 9 games.

April 2/69: Knocked out cold by a pat Quinn elbow to the face. Played the next game. Can you imagine that happening today? Can you say concussion?

All of the above happened during his first three years, before he even turned 21. And as bad as they were, they were "minor" annoyances compared to the devastating knee surgery after the '72 playoffs that really slowed him down. I would argue that Orr was only really in his prime for a very short time.

Bernie Parent started his career as a Bruin, and was there when Orr arrived in '66. Here's what he had to say about Orr in his biography:

When Bobby first came up, he was just eighteen years old and wasn't bothered by the bad knees he has now. If you think he can skate now, you should have seen him fly then. Cripes, nobody could keep up with him.
-from Bernie; pg 63

Gretzky on the other hand played in a bubble, avoiding contact, letting his teammates do the corner work for him, do the backchecking for him, fight for him etc. He barely had a mark on him. He never had any serious problems until the Suter hit in the '91 Canada Cup, when he was 30 years old. His game was about anticipation and finding the open areas where he could work his magic. And he was spectacular at it. But he relied on his teammates to do most of the dirty work for him.
Orr didn't need to rely on anyone for anything. He used his speed, strength and physicality to break up plays and take the puck by himself, and when he got it, he was unstoppable. He hit, battled, blocked shots, fought... whatever the situation called for, he did, and did spectacularly.

But even still, lets look at their TGF/TGA during years two through nine (because Orr's rookie stats aren't available):

Gretzky: 627 games, 1865 TGF, 1018 TGA
Orr: 570 games, 1601 TGF, 756 TGA

Over an 82 game schedule, the numbers would look like this:
Gretzky: 244 TGF, 133 TGA = +111
Orr: 230 TGF, 109 TGA = +121

Orr still comes out ahead of Gretzky by a margin of 10 goals. And that doesn't take into consideration the fact that while Gretzky was disgustingly healthy, Orr was hardly "in his prime" due to his countless serious injuries. He couldn't even skate when he retired. Nor does it consider Orr's role as the top shutdown Dman on the Bruins, always being out in key defensive situations against the opposition's top offensive threats. He also played a ton of minutes on the PK, much more than Gretzky, all of which would have increased his TGA.

It also doesn't take into consideration the superior teammates that Gretzky played with. Orr had a lot of quality teammates, but they were not the Oilers. Aside from Orr, they had two truly world-class players (Espo and Bucyk, although Bucyk wasn't good enough to be chosen for Team Canada in '72). Cashman, Hodge, Sanderson, Dallas Smith etc. were the equivalent of Tikannen, Linsman, Huddy, Gregg etc.

Gretzky had so much world-class talent around him it ain't funny:
*His linemate (Kurri) was a premier sniper as well as being a defensive standout
*Messier and Anderson were fixtures on Team Canada
*Coffey and Lowe were also fixtures on Team Canada
*Grant Fuhr (Team Canada's starting goalie)

Five Orrs vs. five Gretzkys, the Orrs win hands down.

 

[Fourier]

It's interesting that you didn't mention Gretzky dominating the defensive zone. He didn't really have much of an impact in the defensive zone.
Everybody always points out Gretzky's offensive numbers, but they seldom point out the fact that he was on the ice for more goals against than any other player in history: 2285

Let's compare Orr and Gretzky re total goals for vs total goals against

Gretzky: 1487 games, 3520 TGF, 2285 TGA
Orr: 596 games, 1651 TGF, 781 TGA
*note: Orr's rookie year not included; stats not available until 67-68

Gretzky was on the ice for 1.540 goals scored for every goal against.
Orr was on the ice for 2.114 goals scored for every goal against.

That is a significant difference, and it doesn't even take into consideration Orr's shutdown role. Both Orr and Gretzky were the go-to guys when a goal was needed, and they led their powerplays. But Orr was also the top shutdown Dman for the Bruins. He usually stayed on the ice for the entire two minutes of every PK, and was always matched up against the other team's top shooters. Always. The same can't be said about Gretzky. If anything, that should inflate Orr's TGA. Didn't happen.

Orr dominated every aspect of the game, in any situation, on any part of the ice. His overall impact on the game was simply larger than Gretzky's.

When people make the claim that Gretzky had no impact in the defensive zone my first inclination is to ask how often you actually saw him play, especially live in his prime. This is not directed at you specifically. Simply an observation from someone who sees it quite differently.

The Oilers had a tremendous transition game, the best that I have seen. This transition game often as not started with Gretzky. His anticipation was extraordinary, and he used it extremely effectively in the defensive zone. Moreover, while he was very active he tended to stay very high in the defensive zone, moving deeper only when he broke for the puck or to break up a pass. But in doing so he put significant pressure on both defensemen. If he ether broke out of the zone when the Oilers gained control or if he himself got the puck both Dmen would typically clear the zone making it much easier to get the puck out. Pinching or being caught flat footed was very dangerous with Gretzky on the ice. Especially when teamed with Kurri.

But as with much of Gretzky's game, what happened away from the puck was a telling as what he did with it. And this aspect of his game was far more evident when you watched him live.

I will also give one more rather extreme, though quite well known, example of how Gretzky could impact the defensive zone in a very unusual way. Gretzky was shadowed more than any player of his generation. In his own zone he would simply stand beside the left defenseman taking the shadow effectively out of the play and giving the Oilers a 4-3 advantage in the defensive zone. If the shadow left him Gretzky would return to business as usual, and was free to start the transition game.

 

[New User Name]

Wait a minute...

Orr's entire career was in his prime? Excuse me??

Orr played through horrific injuries throughout his entire career. Some examples:



All of the above happened during his first three years, before he even turned 21. And as bad as they were, they were "minor" annoyances compared to the devastating knee surgery after the '72 playoffs that really slowed him down. I would argue that Orr was only really in his prime for a very short time.

Bernie Parent started his career as a Bruin, and was there when Orr arrived in '66. Here's what he had to say about Orr in his biography:


Gretzky on the other hand played in a bubble, avoiding contact, letting his teammates do the corner work for him, do the backchecking for him, fight for him etc. He barely had a mark on him. He never had any serious problems until the Suter hit in the '91 Canada Cup, when he was 30 years old. His game was about anticipation and finding the open areas where he could work his magic. And he was spectacular at it. But he relied on his teammates to do most of the dirty work for him.
Orr didn't need to rely on anyone for anything. He used his speed, strength and physicality to break up plays and take the puck by himself, and when he got it, he was unstoppable. He hit, battled, blocked shots, fought... whatever the situation called for, he did, and did spectacularly.

But even still, lets look at their TGF/TGA during years two through nine (because Orr's rookie stats aren't available):

Gretzky: 627 games, 1865 TGF, 1018 TGA
Orr: 570 games, 1601 TGF, 756 TGA

Over an 82 game schedule, the numbers would look like this:
Gretzky: 244 TGF, 133 TGA = +111
Orr: 230 TGF, 109 TGA = +121

Orr still comes out ahead of Gretzky by a margin of 10 goals. And that doesn't take into consideration the fact that while Gretzky was disgustingly healthy, Orr was hardly "in his prime" due to his countless serious injuries. He couldn't even skate when he retired. Nor does it consider Orr's role as the top shutdown Dman on the Bruins, always being out in key defensive situations against the opposition's top offensive threats. He also played a ton of minutes on the PK, much more than Gretzky, all of which would have increased his TGA.

It also doesn't take into consideration the superior teammates that Gretzky played with. Orr had a lot of quality teammates, but they were not the Oilers. Aside from Orr, they had two truly world-class players (Espo and Bucyk, although Bucyk wasn't good enough to be chosen for Team Canada in '72). Cashman, Hodge, Sanderson, Dallas Smith etc. were the equivalent of Tikannen, Linsman, Huddy, Gregg etc.

Gretzky had so much world-class talent around him it ain't funny:
*His linemate (Kurri) was a premier sniper as well as being a defensive standout
*Messier and Anderson were fixtures on Team Canada
*Coffey and Lowe were also fixtures on Team Canada
*Grant Fuhr (Team Canada's starting goalie)

Five Orrs vs. five Gretzkys, the Orrs win hands down.

When the Icon of Hockey Knowledge speaks/writes.....we all should listen.

 

[popculturereference]

Wait a minute...

Orr's entire career was in his prime? Excuse me??

Orr played through horrific injuries throughout his entire career. Some examples:



All of the above happened during his first three years, before he even turned 21. And as bad as they were, they were "minor" annoyances compared to the devastating knee surgery after the '72 playoffs that really slowed him down. I would argue that Orr was only really in his prime for a very short time.

Bernie Parent started his career as a Bruin, and was there when Orr arrived in '66. Here's what he had to say about Orr in his biography:


Gretzky on the other hand played in a bubble, avoiding contact, letting his teammates do the corner work for him, do the backchecking for him, fight for him etc. He barely had a mark on him. He never had any serious problems until the Suter hit in the '91 Canada Cup, when he was 30 years old. His game was about anticipation and finding the open areas where he could work his magic. And he was spectacular at it. But he relied on his teammates to do most of the dirty work for him.
Orr didn't need to rely on anyone for anything. He used his speed, strength and physicality to break up plays and take the puck by himself, and when he got it, he was unstoppable. He hit, battled, blocked shots, fought... whatever the situation called for, he did, and did spectacularly.

But even still, lets look at their TGF/TGA during years two through nine (because Orr's rookie stats aren't available):

Gretzky: 627 games, 1865 TGF, 1018 TGA
Orr: 570 games, 1601 TGF, 756 TGA

Over an 82 game schedule, the numbers would look like this:
Gretzky: 244 TGF, 133 TGA = +111
Orr: 230 TGF, 109 TGA = +121

Orr still comes out ahead of Gretzky by a margin of 10 goals. And that doesn't take into consideration the fact that while Gretzky was disgustingly healthy, Orr was hardly "in his prime" due to his countless serious injuries. He couldn't even skate when he retired. Nor does it consider Orr's role as the top shutdown Dman on the Bruins, always being out in key defensive situations against the opposition's top offensive threats. He also played a ton of minutes on the PK, much more than Gretzky, all of which would have increased his TGA.

It also doesn't take into consideration the superior teammates that Gretzky played with. Orr had a lot of quality teammates, but they were not the Oilers. Aside from Orr, they had two truly world-class players (Espo and Bucyk, although Bucyk wasn't good enough to be chosen for Team Canada in '72). Cashman, Hodge, Sanderson, Dallas Smith etc. were the equivalent of Tikannen, Linsman, Huddy, Gregg etc.

Gretzky had so much world-class talent around him it ain't funny:
*His linemate (Kurri) was a premier sniper as well as being a defensive standout
*Messier and Anderson were fixtures on Team Canada
*Coffey and Lowe were also fixtures on Team Canada
*Grant Fuhr (Team Canada's starting goalie)

Five Orrs vs. five Gretzkys, the Orrs win hands down.

The prime argument is tricky because it's difficult to argue either way. He played through a lot of knee problems, but I mean, that's what happened. We can't change history. If we start making statements that Orr wasn't at 100% during his career, then really, the sky is the limit for these arguments. I could start claiming he'd be a 200+ point defenseman without any real argument either way.

Gretzky's game allowed him to play for twenty seasons. Orr's allowed him to play for nine injury plagued seasons. Hm, you're right, Orr DID play the better game...

It was a higher scoring league, and the Oilers sacrificed defense for offense (teams play to their strength. The Oilers strength was offense). And, at the end of the day, they won four Stanley Cups during Gretzky's time. I don't see the problem here -- this style of play worked for them.

Yes, the 80s Oilers teams were superior. Possibly the best team of all-time. But, the 70s Bruins had incredible teams. You can't pretend that they weren't one of the top teams in their generation. And, the standings reflects this.

Again, with the stupid five Gretzkys vs. five Orrs debate. This argument was left for dead pages ago.