OPPF Draft 2020 - Draft Thread 2

[The Macho King]

I might think of changing up my #4C. All of my Cs are solid two-way guys, but I'm wondering if I want a more pure checker for the 4th line instead.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Note:

Everyone drafted a Flyer. That was expected. They have top-end talent from every generation of their existence (not a Philly fan myself, but I respect the history of their franchise over local rival yo-yo tank-for-superstar Pittsburgh).

Surprisingly, a couple of guys didn't take a pre-NHLer or Ottawa player. One.guy didn't draft a Soviet.

Also, a bit surprised only three of us didn't draft a Washington Capital (the same as dynasty AND tanking Oilers!). Didn't see that coming. Winning the Stanley Cup recently changes a lot, I guess.

After doing 4 OPPF drafts I finally came to the conclusion that the Flyers deserve to be bumped up in my exclusive club of 9 deep franchises (so we have 10 in total).

Took me a while to see it, and obviously Giroux increasing his value also helped solidify Philly.

 

[The Macho King]

After doing 4 OPPF drafts I finally came to the conclusion that the Flyers deserve to be bumped up in my exclusive club of 9 deep franchises (so we have 10 in total).

Took me a while to see it, and obviously Giroux increasing his value also helped solidify Philly.

Kind of makes sense. They never had an extended period where they were "bad", and actually quite a few where they were very good. So you have three strong eras (70s, 80s, 90s) to pull from, as well as some solid players in the 00s/10s.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Kind of makes sense. They never had an extended period where they were "bad", and actually quite a few where they were very good. So you have three strong eras (70s, 80s, 90s) to pull from, as well as some solid players in the 00s/10s.

Yes, and the reason it took me so long to see it is that their depth of Top 200-ish ATD players is not as deep as the other 9 franchises, and their depth of Top 100 ATD players is thin too. But that said, they still have 12-15 valuable players and variety.

 

[VanIslander]

The greatest Pittsburgh defensemen ever.... The greatest Pittsburgh goaltender ever....

Vs.

The greatest Philly dmen & goaltender ever.

No contest.

The best three dmen in Pennsylvania all played in Philly, as did the best goaltender and left winger (heck, even RWer Recchi counts as a Flyer).

That is DEPTH.

Pittsburgh tanked for Lemieux, Crosby, Malkin but have few others to show for their half century of existence in an all-time context.

 

[BenchBrawl]

The greatest Pittsburgh defensemen ever.... The greatest Pittsburgh goaltender ever....

Vs.

The greatest Philly dmen & goaltender ever.

No contest.

The best three dmen in Pennsylvania all played in Philly, as did the best goaltender and left winger.

That is DEPTH.

Pittsburgh tanked for Lemieux, Crosby, Malkin but have few others to show for their half century of existence in an all-time context.

OK, but no one ever pretended Pittsburgh was a deep team.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Ottawa is a deep franchise, but they have a guy like Dany Heatley who might not be useful in this draft size, depending how the dominoes fall for every team. I'm more surprised nobody picked up Harvey Pulford, who could have been a serviceable #4 or #5 defenseman. Punch Broadbent, however, despite always being drafted below Heatley in the ATD, has a more valuable skillset for the bottom-6.

This is where Philly shines; they're not that important in the first part of the draft when teams are building their Top-6 and Top-4 defensemen, at least compared to other deep teams, but they have many valuable bottom-6ers and 4th-6th Ds like Barber, Propp, Giroux, Desjardins, McCrimmon, or even Tocchet (and could have gone to Jimmy Watson on D), as well as Bernie Parent as a weak but legit starter. Meanwhile Ottawa kindda sucks in this range after Pulford and Broadbent. The Philly equivalent to Heatley is Recchi, who is more passable in the Top 6.

 

[VanIslander]

OK, but no one ever pretended Pittsburgh was a deep team.

But people forget to mention what a laughingstock of a franchise it was in its first quarter century and how badly it tanked for four or five years before Lemieux and before Crosby.

Maybe it's all the young posters. But the last half decade or so of Pittsburgh-over-Philly smack talk is NOT indicative of the last half century of hockey history!

 

[BenchBrawl]

But people forget to mention what a laughingstock of a franchise it was in its first quarter century and how badly it tanked for four or five years before Lemieux and before Crosby.

Maybe it's all the young posters. But the last half decade or so of Pitraburgh over Philly is NOT indicative of the last half century of hockey history!

Pittsburgh did win 5 Stanley Cups to 2 against Philly, but I always thought everyone had a deeper respect for the Flyers for always staying competitive. I know I do. But still, Pittsburgh won 5 vs. 2, and we can't ignore that neither.

 

[VanIslander]

What does that mean?

Toronto has more than double the number of Stanley Cups but Bruins history is more respectable than the Leafs. Heck, even the Red Wings has less cups than Toronto but TWICE the number of all-time greats!!!

 

[BenchBrawl]

What does that mean?

Toronto has more than double the number of Stanley Cups but Bruins history is more respectable than the Leafs. Heck, even the Red Wings has less cups than Toronto but TWICE the number of all-time greats!!!

I think Toronto's history is very respectable with TWO dynasties. I know they had really shitty eras but still, cannot forget two dynasties, whereas Boston had none despite a strong possibility in the early 1970s.

Also, Boston was a complete non-factor in the most iconic era of history O6.

 

[VanIslander]

Over 50 years of mediocrity to date.

Milking two O6 dynasties.

A disappointing single cup in the 1930's despite a vaulted line up.

As my best friend has lamented since the 1980's: It's hard (for him) to be a Leafs fan.

Sundin was wasted on awful teams. I was sad for the guy.

The franchise has finished 1st in its division twice since 1948. Seriously. Imagine being a franchise season ticket holder. You have to be delusional.

 

[ImporterExporter]

The greatest Pittsburgh defensemen ever.... The greatest Pittsburgh goaltender ever....

Vs.

The greatest Philly dmen & goaltender ever.

No contest.

The best three dmen in Pennsylvania all played in Philly, as did the best goaltender and left winger (heck, even RWer Recchi counts as a Flyer).

That is DEPTH.

Pittsburgh tanked for Lemieux,.

Fixed it for you.

There is literally zero truth or factual evidence to support Pittsburgh tanking for Crosby (this was a lottery draft where EVERY SINGLE TEAM in the league had a shot at Sid) or Malkin (who wasn't even the best prospect that year anyway). Did they tank for Jagr? What about Jordan Staal (who they took over Toews btw)? What about Marc Andre Fleury? Do you realize how f***ing awful those late 90's and especially early 2000's Penguins teams were. I'm sure when Crosby and Malkin were 10 years old the Penguins were already plotting to tank just at the right moment.

THIS is precisely why I don't enjoy drafting Crosby because you have extremely biased people who allow their personal prejudices to influence reality and by extension voting. You're not remotely the only person I put in this category either btw.

I'm so sick of seeing older, long time ATD level players spew nonsense like this.

You respect Philly for their continued failure to produce when it mattered most? They haven't won a Cup in nearly half a f***ing century. And it's not like they haven't played in a large market (pre cap era) with as much financial leg room as any team in the league. Numerous losses along the way. Pittsburgh hasn't missed the postseason in what 13/14 years. Since 91, they've been to 6 Cup finals and won 5. Before Mario took majority ownership stake in the team, thus saving it a SECOND time, more or less all of the ills in Pittsburgh could be traced back to horrific owners who bungled every financial decision dating back to the expansion. Do you think it was easy in a non cap league to be a hockey team in one of the smallest US markets, coupled with inept/cheap ownership?

You don't like Pittsburgh? Fine. But don't make up grade school bullshit Van. Come on.

 

[VanIslander]

Watch games every night.

Poor play for years and years isn't band-aided by championships. Yo-yo franchise, indeed.

Pittsburgh has sucked for most of the last half century. Period. I have booed and Chicago, but at least they have tried. One could stomach them because they were so often challenging to beat.

There have been too many nights where one of my teams played Pitts and the Pens defense or goaltending have stunk up the joint. You couldn't give away Pens cards before Lemieux.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Pittsburgh is unique in hockey history because they had the best player in the world for three straight generations. This must be very rare in sports history if not unique there too.

It is bizarre that McDavid ended up in Edmonton, which had the best player in the world prior to that 3 generations stretch dominated by Pittsburgh.

It went EDM-PIT-PIT-PIT-EDM.

And I don't want to hear about Hasek or Ovechkin.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Pittsburgh is unique in hockey history because they had the best player in the world for three straight generations. This must be very rare in sports history if not unique there too.

It is bizarre that McDavid ended up in Edmonton, which had the best player in the world prior to that 3 generations stretch dominated by Pittsburgh.

It went EDM-PIT-PIT-PIT-EDM.

And I don't want to hear about Hasek or Ovechkin.

speaking of, i'm kind of surprised nobody took mcdavid to center a speedy kid line-esque fourth line.

maybe i'm still learning how this all works, but that's an awful lot of career value in 4.5 seasons that you could throw out there in petr klima situations if you build a good enough shutdown third line.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Watch games every night.

Poor play for years and years isn't band-aided by championships. Yo-yo franchise, indeed.

Pittsburgh has sucked for most of the last half century. Period. I have booed and Chicago, but at least they have tried. One could stomach them because they were so often challenging to beat.

There have been too many nights where one of my teams played Pitts and the Pens defense or goaltending have stunk up the joint. You couldn't give away Pens cards before Lemieux.

Penalizing a team for what they did or didn't do in the 70's/80's (financial incompetence to boot) is an interesting take. Since the early 90's they've been arguably the most successful franchises in hockey.

Over the last THIRTY YEARS, no team has won more Cups (5). Runners up include 06 powerhouse, Detroit (4), NJ (3), Chicago (3), LA (2), TB (2).

No team has been to the finals more often (6). Only Detroit has matched that #.

Once ownership improved (Mario and Burkle) and a cap system was implemented, the Penguins have been the most stable franchise in the entire league.

They'll likely take a big downturn once Sid/Malkin hang them up as would any franchise. Look at Chicago. They STILL have Kane/Toews and haven't really sniffed the Cup in half a decade now. When is the last time Montreal was relevant? Where is the attention for that shit show of a franchise over the last 20 years? Toronto?

Pittsburgh used to be a joke, based purely on economic and financial restraints. And if you don't understand basic economics or market valuation, specifically between an urban center like Philly vs Pittsburgh, there isn't anything left to discuss.

The Flyers, in the 90's for example could sign anyone in FA. Why? Because they had the access to heavy revenue based on being in a much larger market. Pittsburgh for years, relied solely on the draft/trades to gain talent. Simple economics prevented them from being able to compete int he DPE. Much like you see in MLB (which has no cap). The presence of small market clubs dominating the circuit or even representing top dog status is rare.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

The only two playoff structures that make sense to me:

1) The top 8 teams make the playoffs, 4 teams miss.
2) All 12 teams make the playoffs, the top 4 get byes, the bottom 8 play a preliminary round to reach the round of 8.

Looks like we are probably doing #2, but there is another option:

3) Divide the teams into 2 divisions of 6 based on draft position (Odd and Even). Top 2 teams in each division have byes.

 

[VanIslander]

You don't like Pittsburgh? Fine. But don't make up grade school bullshit Van. Come on.

Insult me all you like....

It took the Penguins franchise 23 years to win its first divisional title (i was finishing university), and it was in the basement of its division again for years at the beginning of this century.

For whatever reason, Philly has been more competitive and produced MORE all-time greats.

Yeah, f*** both franchises.

My initial point stands: We all picked a Flyers all-time great and that is a testament to their ongoing great play, even if they:

The Flyers lose the Finals to dynasty Habs;
The Flyers lose the Finals to dynasty Isles;
The Flyers lose the Finals to dynasty Oilers;
The Flyers lose the Finals to dynasty Oilers.

I saw each series and was happy each time the Flyers lost. BUT i respected them. The Pens just stink too much historically. In an all-time context.

(Edit: Plus Flyers lost the Finals to a loaded '97 Wings, '10 Hawks but i didn't like any of those franchises so was eh over the winner/loser; not my fav few Finals by far!)

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

players i didn't draft but were strong backups to my bottom of roster guys:

eddie oatman as a two-way utility winger, anders hedberg, joel otto as a shutdown C, kirk muller at LW on the fourth line, and ulf samuelsson and jamie macoun (and to a lesser degree bill hajt and willie mitchell) as defensive LDs. i also really wanted to talk myself into alex burrows, but alas.

what undrafted did everyone else reluctantly leave on the cutting room floor?

 

[VanIslander]

My last two picks, Detroit (instead of Norm Ullman) and Habs (panned Newsy Lalonde).

Plus,...

Harvey Pulford, Grant Fuhr, Gary Suter, Steve Stamkos and Dino Ciccarelli.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Insult me all you like....

It took the Penguins franchise 23 years to win its first divisional title (i was finishing university), and it was in the basement of its division again for years at the beginning of this century.

For whatever reason, Philly has been more competitive and produced MORE all-time greats.

Yeah, f*** both franchises.

My initial point stands: We all picked a Flyers all-time great and that is a testament to their ongoing great play, even if they:

The Flyers lose the Finals to dynasty Habs;
The Flyers lose the Finals to dynasty Isles;
The Flyers lose the Finals to dynasty Oilers;
The Flyers lose the Finals to dynasty Oilers.

I saw each series and was happy each time the Flyers lost. BUT i respected them. The Pens just stink too much historically. In an all-time context.

(Edit: Plus Flyers lost the Finals to a loaded '97 Wings, '10 Hawks but i didn't like any of those franchises so was eh over the winner/loser; not my fav few Finals by far!)

I haven't insulted you once sir. And you know it. I specifically referred to you saying the Pens tanked for Crosby and Malkin which is utter rubbish. THAT is what I take umbrage with. Throwing out blatant falsehoods.

You on the other hand insulted Vadim directly during the draft, inferring his namesake meant he was either a communist and/or terrorist. Among other instances that could be easily referenced. People are sick of it. Plural.

If you want to talk about the Flyers and Pens I'll gladly remind you and everyone that it's been nearly 50 years since the Cup resided in Philly. I don't need to say anything else. For whatever issues Pitt management had in the 70's and 80's (they had no money is the jist of it), it was more than made up for during the 90's onward. Playoff appearances, and Cup wins cement that fact.

Pittsburgh is also, literally in the conversation for being the birthplace of pro hockey in the United States. I've posted in the HoH forum on this. There are numerous firsts Pittsburgh claims as it pertains to pro hockey in the US and many of the greatest early era players at one point or another passed through and played on one of the numerous pro teams. Pittsburgh was, ironically, a major hockey market in the formative years. The steel industry certainly aided in that.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

players i didn't draft but were strong backups to my bottom of roster guys:

eddie oatman as a two-way utility winger, anders hedberg, joel otto as a shutdown C, kirk muller at LW on the fourth line, and ulf samuelsson and jamie macoun (and to a lesser degree bill hajt and willie mitchell) as defensive LDs. i also really wanted to talk myself into alex burrows, but alas.

what undrafted did everyone else reluctantly leave on the cutting room floor?

Considered Gilbert Perrault as my 4th line center, before deciding that I just couldn't justify him in a bottom 6 role, especially since I had all the forwards I needed for my PP.

Considered Bobrovsky as my backup goalie.

Considered Rene Robert, Daniel Sedin, and Patrick Marleau.

Most of the depth players I was considering drafting ended up getting drafted by other teams (like Rick Nash).

I don't think Eddie Oatman was much of a two-way winger, was he? I think of him as a guy with some grit.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Ottawa is a deep franchise, but they have a guy like Dany Heatley who might not be useful in this draft size, depending how the dominoes fall for every team. I'm more surprised nobody picked up Harvey Pulford, who could have been a serviceable #4 or #5 defenseman. Punch Broadbent, however, despite always being drafted below Heatley in the ATD, has a more valuable skillset for the bottom-6.

This is where Philly shines; they're not that important in the first part of the draft when teams are building their Top-6 and Top-4 defensemen, at least compared to other deep teams, but they have many valuable bottom-6ers and 4th-6th Ds like Barber, Propp, Giroux, Desjardins, McCrimmon, or even Tocchet (and could have gone to Jimmy Watson on D), as well as Bernie Parent as a weak but legit starter. Meanwhile Ottawa kindda sucks in this range after Pulford and Broadbent. The Philly equivalent to Heatley is Recchi, who is more passable in the Top 6.

Philly has so many bottom 6 calibre guys in a draft this size; made me feel better about burning the O6 teams on the core of my team, knowing I at least had Philly for depth players.

I knew from about the midpoint of the draft that my 3rd line LW was probably going to be Propp or Barber.

Pre-NHL is also loaded with bottom 6 types; burning them for Moose Johnson hurt, but I felt I had to.

Ottawa is a useful team to save for awhile, as you get Hossa, Alfredsson, and Broadbent as two-way RWs (and two-way RWs are generally harder to find that two-way LWs), but once you miss out on them and defensemen of the Boucher tier, they are a bit barren. Heatley really isn't that useful in a 12 team draft.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Philly has so many bottom 6 calibre guys in a draft this size; made me feel better about burning the O6 teams knowing I was saving Philly.

I knew from about the midpoint of the draft that my 3rd line LW was probably going to be Propp or Barber.

Pre-NHL is also loaded with bottom 6 types; burning them for Moose Johnson hurt, but I felt I had to.

Ottawa is a useful team to save for awhile, as you get Hossa, Alfredsson, and Broadbent as two-way RWs (and two-way RWs are generally harder to find that two-way LWs), but once you miss out on them and defensemen of the Boucher tier, they are a bit barren. Heatley really isn't that useful in a 12 team draft.

Yeah, I agree with all of this, and there many other such intricacies when you look at the other teams too. In the earlier OPPFs, the heuristic of splitting the field in two between "9 deep teams" and "the rest" satisfied me, but clearer patterns emerged this year, blurring the line.