WJC: Open Letter to the hockey elite

[Kajoo72]

Internationally soccer (ahem....cough...football) is a lot more competitive than hockey. Not sure why that is being argued.

And still has only 8 World Champs, just like supposedly non-competitive ice hockey

 

[Hntz]

I don’t mind having 10 teams at the WJC. It means more hockey for me, and quess what? I like hockey.

Anything above 10 would propably not work, however.

 

[NyQuil]

One would think Canadians would accel at squash. Gords and all that.

For my part, I end up playing it like tennis and running at top speed into the wall from time to time.

 

[Kajoo72]

I don’t mind having 10 teams at the WJC. It means more hockey for me, and quess what? I like hockey.

Anything above 10 would propably not work, however.

It already is 10, and will be 11 in ‘23 since no relegation this year

 

[Hntz]

It already is 10, and will be 11 in ‘23 since no relegation this year

Yeah, I know. Just giving my opinion on the current system. Some posters seem to think than even 10 is too many.

 

[KillerMillerTime]

Don’t want my daughters to play soccer. One play tennis, fell in love it, too

You should let your daughters play what they want and enjoy. I had three daughters play soccer with one stopping after first year she played and one stopping after 8th grade and 7 years playing and one being forced to stop due to suffering a seizure the night after a practice at the beginning of 8th grade.
She enjoyed it and was the best for the grade she was in her suburb of Boston.

Thought never crossed my mind to discourage any of them to play soccer or put pressure on them to play.

 

[KillerMillerTime]

Absolutely disagree. IIHF worlds were won by 8 countries total, not counting yet USSR & Czechoslovakia, otherwise 10. FIFA World Cup in soccer has 8 winners in much wider field.

You realize the World Cup is every 4 years?

Further the competitive difference between the #1
team and #20 team in soccer is miniscule while hockey
its enormous.

 

[KillerMillerTime]

I have no problem with the premise of the OP's article although I do agree that blowout games are difficult to watch and on that day it doesn't help anyone.

10 teams for the WJHC is fine, 12 would be too many right now as borderline teams are okay if it's a couple but would suck if it's a 1/4 of the teams.

Part of the problem is the focus on elite development by the top hockey nations and the large gap between them and the next level, much like the problem in woman's soccer.

Might be an idea to relegate based on Goal differential also. At very least might make teams
more motivated to keep score down.

 

[Maverick41]

I don’t mind having 10 teams at the WJC. It means more hockey for me, and quess what? I like hockey.

Anything above 10 would propably not work, however.

If it is just about competitiveness I think we are almost at the point where 12 teams could work. The gap between those 2nd or 3rd tier nations below the top5 or 6 is not that big, and frequently a nation currently playing in div 1a happens to have a better crop of players in a given year than at least one of the nations playing in the elite division.

But there would be other issues that would have to be considered, like number of games and of course many would complain about adding two more teams the top nations would beat too easily still.
I know there are some who would like to switch to a format like the Women's World Championships with the top 6 nations playing in one group to determine their seeding in the quarterfinal and the bottom 6 teams playing for the final two quarterfinal spots. Personally I don't find that appealing, but I wouldn't get too upset if they went that way either.

As far as the so called World Cup is concerned, if they want to make it a closed competition (invitational only) it's ok, but I won't care one bit about it.
In order for me to be even slightly interested there would have to be at least some theoretical way any team could qualify, regardless of their number of NHL players. Even if they made it a 6- or 4-team tournament, which would almost certainly prohibit Germany (which I am rooting for), Denmark, Latvia and so on from being a part of it, I would be ok with it, as long as every team had to qualify in some way.
I know that would be a logistical problem having qualifiers involving every team, but without it, such a tournament would just not matter to me. But that is of course just me and in the end it is up to other people to make these decisions.

 

[Kajoo72]

You should let your daughters play what they want and enjoy. I had three daughters play soccer with one stopping after first year she played and one stopping after 8th grade and 7 years playing and one being forced to stop due to suffering a seizure the night after a practice at the beginning of 8th grade.
She enjoyed it and was the best for the grade she was in her suburb of Boston.

Thought never crossed my mind to discourage any of them to play soccer or put pressure on them to play.

Dislike local soccer fan culture here with their stone age mentality. so far they shown zero interest in soccer so no big deal.

 

[Hntz]

If it is just about competitiveness I think we are almost at the point where 12 teams could work. The gap between those 2nd or 3rd tier nations below the top5 or 6 is not that big, and frequently a nation currently playing in div 1a happens to have a better crop of players in a given year than at least one of the nations playing in the elite division.

Yeah, the issue for me isn’t how the 6 teams outside of the top-6 compete against eachother. It’s just that there is a limit to how many blowout games I’d like to see in a tournament. And the further down we go on the list, the bigger those blowouts are going to be.

 

[Frederik95]

Doesn't matter now, does it?

Not this year unfortunately. but its a different perspective to what most see and i still feel its a point worth bringing up a few times, and i made it hours before it shutdown. Really just sad that it didnt

 

[Czechboy]

Absolutely disagree. IIHF worlds were won by 8 countries total, not counting yet USSR & Czechoslovakia, otherwise 10. FIFA World Cup in soccer has 8 winners in much wider field.

I slightly disagree with this...

Not the fact that 8 nations have won and 10 in hockey. That is fact and undeniable.

However... Can we show top 3 placements for both sports in the last 20 years?

Hockey would have about the same amount of nations winning a bronze, gold or silver at every level from U18 to best on best. I'm guessing 7 nations have a medal in hockey somewhere ... Swiss, Czechs, Slovaks, Russia, Canada, Finland and Sweden. Anyone else medal anywhere?

For soccer... Looking at U18 to world and Euro Cup... I'm guessing about 20 nations have at least one medal somewhere (or top 3 finish).

Looking at just gold eliminates a lot of good soccer nations.

Put another way... Without looking . The 40th ranked nation in soccer could beat a top nation and it would not shock that much. Hell, Greece won a euro. So did Denmark after not qualifying once. Czechs beat England in a qualifier recently. Tied with Belgium. A great Iceland run a few years ago where they took out England at a world Cup.

I don't know what the 40th ranked hockey nation is but I'm guessing Barbados and I will eat my hat if they beat Finland.lol.

 

[Czechboy]

In best on best tournaments, the ones where the best pros have played for their country, not amateurs or the WHA.
72-Canada win
76-Canada win
81-Soviet win
84-Canada win
87-Canada win
91-Canada win
96-US win
98-Czech win
02-Canada win
04-Canada win
06-Sweden win
10-Canada win
14-Canada win
16-Canada win

2005 lockout year... Best on best at worlds... Czechs

 

[Kajoo72]

You realize the World Cup is every 4 years?

Further the competitive difference between the #1
team and #20 team in soccer is miniscule while hockey
its enormous.

Never said it’s great comparison but a best one that came up to my mind. Feel free to compare other sports. Example: curling. 6 world champs in 60+ years history. Difference between nr.1 and nr.20 in soccer ain’t that big, maybe like between Nr1 & Nr.6 in hockey. Which sounds fair when comparing number of countries that participate in qualifications. 207 countries participate in FIFA WC’22 qualification, world champ and host country qualified authomatically, that’s 209. In IIHF directed tournaments (top div to div 4) it’s 54 teams.

 

[Frederik95]

Here is last year’s thread: WJC: - Open Letter To Canadian Hockey Fans

Basically, OP saw a random comment that someone was upset and decided to call out all of canada in a cringey letter.

Apparently last year’s thread wasn’t enough indication to OP that the large majority of Canadian hockey fans do not share this opinion. It’s a deliberate attempt to generalize an entire country just to gain some extra views from readers.

OP has barely contributed to this forum since the previous version of this thread he made last year, so it’s quite clear that he’s just using this site to promote his click bait article.

I havent been on here a lot. I dont have the time sadly to spend on forums. I will not shy away from it. However, one point i want to make is that i dont do this for promoting an article. They make me nothing so got no reason to focus on views, and that honestly never been my aim. I want to show an angle rarely explored and this was a place i remembered having a lot of good interactions about it last year so wanted to post it here again to talk about it and get new and interesting ideas about it.

Also the reason i made this years version was two things. A) Campbell and others imo taking away from the hockey development going on around the world and B) correcting some of the mistakes i made last year. Like for instance making it VERY clear that this is a minority of Canadian and people who think this. However some has a voice and platform and i felt like i can offer something different than most being danish to the debate.

Hope that answered a few questions about my reasoning

 

[ACLEVERNAME]

I never read content but LMAO at the Canadjuns faining offense at the OP. Yikes

 

[Frederik95]

I don’t mind having 10 teams at the WJC. It means more hockey for me, and quess what? I like hockey.

Anything above 10 would propably not work, however.

Ten is probably a the right number but with 11 next year i do feel that making 4 groups of 3 teams and having 12 teams would kinda solve a lot of issues for that part.
You get the four best nations: Canada, USA, Sweden, Russia in one seeding tier. Finland, Czechia, Germany, Switzerland in tier two and then Slovakia, Austria, Belarus and Latvia in tier 3.

The top 2 in each group moves on, having only played one game against a... potential blowout opponent and there is still a chance to learn and develop for the smaller nations and to upset. With the top 2 moving on the knockout stage, the bottom finisher in each group play each other in a relegation group. Last or bottom 2 teams are relegated

 

[Kajoo72]

I slightly disagree with this...

Not the fact that 8 nations have won and 10 in hockey. That is fact and undeniable.

However... Can we show top 3 placements for both sports in the last 20 years?

Hockey would have about the same amount of nations winning a bronze, gold or silver at every level from U18 to best on best. I'm guessing 7 nations have a medal in hockey somewhere ... Swiss, Czechs, Slovaks, Russia, Canada, Finland and Sweden. Anyone else medal anywhere?

For soccer... Looking at U18 to world and Euro Cup... I'm guessing about 20 nations have at least one medal somewhere (or top 3 finish).

Looking at just gold eliminates a lot of good soccer nations.

Put another way... Without looking . The 40th ranked nation in soccer could beat a top nation and it would not shock that much. Hell, Greece won a euro. So did Denmark after not qualifying once. Czechs beat England in a qualifier recently. Tied with Belgium. A great Iceland run a few years ago where they took out England at a world Cup.

I don't know what the 40th ranked hockey nation is but I'm guessing Barbados and I will eat my hat if they beat Finland.lol.

FIFA membership comprises of 211 national FA’s, all of them bar one or two are active members participating in WC qualifications. IIHF has 82 members out of which 54 nations competing on 5 levels. Nr 40 in soccer is like Nr 10 in hockey. For those who forgot: IIHF Worlds Recap: Latvia 2, Canada 0

 

[Kajoo72]

Ten is probably a the right number but with 11 next year i do feel that making 4 groups of 3 teams and having 12 teams would kinda solve a lot of issues for that part.
You get the four best nations: Canada, USA, Sweden, Russia in one seeding tier. Finland, Czechia, Germany, Switzerland in tier two and then Slovakia, Austria, Belarus and Latvia in tier 3.

The top 2 in each group moves on, having only played one game against a... potential blowout opponent and there is still a chance to learn and develop for the smaller nations and to upset. With the top 2 moving on the knockout stage, the bottom finisher in each group play each other in a relegation group. Last or bottom 2 teams are relegated

Germany with Swiss in pot 2 and Slovakia in pot 3. Seriously ?

 

[Frederik95]

Germany with Swiss in pot 2 and Slovakia in pot 3. Seriously ?

It was an example i made quick. Honestly based it off what i think was last years standings combined with the promotion group from December

 

[Kajoo72]

It was an example i made quick. Honestly based it off what i think was last years standings combined with the promotion group from December

Ah clear, no problem

 

[Tweaky]

Open it up to 16 teams in 4 groups based on rankings on 01 Dec prior to tourney (but countries set the year prior...so 16 seed could be ranked 18th by IIHF list).
Group A: 1, 5, 9, 13
Group B: 2, 6, 10, 14
Group C: 3, 7, 11, 15
Group D: 4, 8, 12, 16

Three round robin games within each Group. At the end of the prelims, playoff games seed as follows: (1) B1 vs C2, (2) A1 vs D2, (3) C1 vs B2, (4) D1 vs A2. Round 2: (5) W1 vs W3 and (6) W2 vs W4 with loser bracket (7) L1 vs L3 and (8) L2 vs L4. Gold game would be (18) W5 vs W6 and Bronze (17) L5 vs L6.
Similar playoff for 3rd and 4th in each group: (9) B3 vs C4, (10) A3 vs D4, (11) C3 vs B4, (12) D3 vs A4. Round 2: (13) W9 vs W11 and (14) W10 vs W12 with loser bracket (15) L9 vs L11 and (16) L10 vs L12. But with the losers of (15) and (16) being relegated. Round 1 would be games 9, 10, 11, 12, round 2 would be games 13-16.

Current ranking would have Canada playing Germany, Slovakia, and Kazakhstan, Finland would have Czechia, Latvia and Belarus, Russia would be grouped with Sweden, Norway and France, while the USA would face Switzerland, Denmark and Great Britain. Some blowouts likely, but each group has one decent tune-up for the top seed. The playoff round would likely end up Finland/Sweden, Canada/Swiss, Russia/Czechia and USA/Germany...top seed gets the "easiest" game. And round 2 is almost guaranteed to have some good games. By seeding, round 2 would be CAN/USA and FIN/RUS, with FIN/CAN for gold. Also by seeding, France and GB drop out, with Italy and Austria getting promoted.

Every team gets at least 5 games with at least 3 being "appropriate level" and with the medal round teams getting a 6th.

Obviously, I am in favor of more teams being involved. The exposure is huge for those countries. And the blowouts may hurt at the time, but they turn into fuel for the players and the countries to improve. And the more the game improves in countries outside the current powerhouses, the more chance we have for players like Draisaitl, Kopitar, and others to get exposed to the game and development programs that can actually help them. More better players is good for everyone involved in hockey. Except those trogs that want to keep it isolated so they have less real competition.

Current rankings:
1. Canada
2. Finland
3. Russia
4. United States
5. Germany
6. Czechia
7. Sweden
8. Switzerland
9. Slovakia
10. Latvia
11. Norway
12. Denmark
13. Kazakhstan
14. Belarus
15. France
16. Great Britain

 

[maacoshark]

I guess it’s a good thing that we don’t care if more countries play hockey or not. Hockey will continue to exist regardless.

It’s fun to see more people enjoy it but I’m not exactly losing sleep over the fact that a winter sport has a hard time becoming popular in countries with no winter.

There are so many people hyper concerned about the popularity of the sport or the NHL. It will be fine. Fewer Canadians may play per capita but the States and Europe can help pick up the slack.

Meanwhile, more Canadians play soccer than hockey and the most representation in the NBA next to the US is Canada.

Who is this Kajoo72 clown? He obviously knows nothing about Canada.
I'm from Canada and I wasn't a hockey only athlete. In fact I played more basketball, football and baseball than I did hockey.
I played some soccer too but BORING. And such a soft sport. Basketball and even baseball are more physical.

 

[Number 57]

I personnaly agree and would widen the field of the World Juniors and many other hockey tournaments even more. Playing only once every 3 years in the main group and getting shelled 11-1 is simply not enough to generate interest and motivate the higher ups to invest.

I would have a 16-team tournament. There are a lot of positive things from having a bigger tournament:

1 - Games between teams of equal strength (like Russia-Canada, or Norway-Denmark) will be very exciting and the competition very high. We always talk about Canada shelling Austria but what about an exciting Latvia vs Ukraine matchup where underrated and unknown prospects get to show their stuff to an international audience? That would be fun to watch.

2 - Sure, Canada will rout teams like Austria and Belarus, but honestly, who cares? Start the tourney earlier (like Dec. 19) and scrap the pre-tournament games. Start Canada vs 2-3 lowly teams and treat them as ''tune-up'' games. Simple as that. If you don't want to watch, then don't and wait for the quarterfinals.

3 - Some smaller nations miss out on icing exciting prospects because on any given year they could find themselves relegated to the second division. Imagine if last year, Germany had been playing in division 2? This is a team that could potentially ice Stutzle-Peterka-Reichel-Seider... Makes no sense at all.

4 - There will be a lot of competition and excitement about the lower end of the standings. Sure Canada, Russia, etc will advance to the quarters and that's when the real tourney starts for them. But for the other smaller countries every game matters as they try to avoid relegation at all cost. These games will be highly exciting and a nice opportunity for prospects to showcase what they can do. These exciting games will mean a lot to these countries.

Germany and Switzerland had to suck for 30+ years and invest a ton of money/time into their hockey program, and it's just starting to pay dividends now. Let all the nations play and generate interest in their home land.