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Ontario Reign 20-21

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Damn. Probably would've won if Byfield didn't flub that overhead pass to Madden breaking.
 
Herby said:
Please don’t take shots at me. I am watching, I didn’t say he is a bad player, just asking if it’s fair to ever expect him to be what we expected in June 2019? Has that ship sailed? Last year you blamed the coaches at UW, is it possible that this is maybe just a player with a limited offensive ceiling? Any chance.

You yourself asked it on this very board, do you think the upside is now as 2C with downside of a 3c?

Again, maybe my expectations were inflated but I’ve seen very little in the almost 2 years since that show me the pick isn’t trending down for the Kings. A top 5 pick should have shown more in the time since.
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I'm not taking shots, I'm asking if he passes your eye test.

I don't think that ship has sailed at all. I think this is a kid coming into pros for the first time directly off the IR into a new system with a whole lot of other first-time pros...and it's not just Turcotte, collectively they're oddly snakebitten.

Your expectations aren't 'inflated,' they're just totally out of whack for the time period. I'm not ready to pass judgment on his offensive ceiling this early.

I think he looks the part and the production will follow as it has at every level.
 
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Herby said:
Please don’t take shots at me. I am watching, I didn’t say he is a bad player, just asking if it’s fair to ever expect him to be what we expected in June 2019? Has that ship sailed? Last year you blamed the coaches at UW, is it possible that this is maybe just a player with a limited offensive ceiling? Any chance.

You yourself asked it on this very board, do you think the upside is now as 2C with downside of a 3c?

Again, maybe my expectations were inflated but I’ve seen very little in the almost 2 years since that show me the pick isn’t trending down for the Kings. A top 5 pick should have shown more in the time since.
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You realize Turcotte is 19 right?Talk in a few years time no one here is a Soothsayer or reads Crystal balls
 
Herby said:
They don’t have many future NHL guys down there, especially with Strand and TB up with the Kings, that is true.

I know I’ll get ripped for this, but at what point is it reasonable to expect Alex Turcotte to resemble a Top 5 pick? You yourself mentioned something in this thread about lowering expectations with his offensive game (paraphrasing). But last year was very underwhelming and this year doesn’t seem to be getting off to a much better start. The AHL isn’t a walk in the park, but it’s not that tough a league because plenty of 19 and 20 year olds have dominated in it before jumping to the NHL. This pick continues to trend downwards for the Kings. And I really thought King Arty would dominate down there.
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Would you say Turcotte looked like a top 5 pick during the World Juniors? If so, that's still a larger sample size than his time in the AHL thus far. I get the frustration because I feel it at times as well, but if we're going to ding him for 5 AHL games we have to raise him up for being the #1C on a gold medal-winning WJC team too.

As for Arty, he leads the teams in shots on net (4 per game) and has just missed the net on 1-2 one-timers per game (which don't count towards SOG). That is not sustainable for a shooter of his skill, and he should be in line for some positive regression. His shooting volume is there which is good, the goals will follow.
 
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Man. On one hand, these guys deserve better.

On another, the bad breaks are often self-inflicted wounds.

They'll learn from it and be better. Only a matter of time before things click--the offensive floodgates will open, the defense will coalesce, and the goalies almost literally can't play any worse, so...

But same as the other day, unsurprising that a team who mostly can't even buy their own beers is getting a rough intro to the pros!
 
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The Reign fought back from a 2 goal deficit and tied it! Then lost the lead in a blink of an eye and again tied it...so lots of positives here I believe...Byfield gets giant monkey off his back and scores...Fagemo scores on the PP! Hope they build on this game...the Defense needs to make passes on the sticks of the skilled forwards and not against the boards...Overall thought D played better...are they there yet,no,but getting better...Berube played far better than his last start
 
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Ontario's D has been an obvious weak point, but it's interesting to note based on the 6 d-men who played today compared to the 6 d-men currently on the Kings, Ontario's defense is older on average. I dunno if that means anything.
 
Raccoon Jesus said:
I'm not taking shots, I'm asking if he passes your eye test.

I don't think that ship has sailed at all. I think this is a kid coming into pros for the first time directly off the IR into a new system with a whole lot of other first-time pros...and it's not just Turcotte, collectively they're oddly snakebitten.

Your expectations aren't 'inflated,' they're just totally out of whack for the time period. I'm not ready to pass judgment on his offensive ceiling this early.

I think he looks the part and the production will follow as it has at every level.
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Depends on what you mean by the eye test.

If you're asking me if he passes the eye test as a future NHL'er? Yes, he does, I have never said otherwise. He has a high motor, he skates well and he has an above average skill set, he's never going to win a Selke but I think he is better defensively than his numbers have indicated (due to poor team def situations) but not as good as some have hyped (not close a prime Richards defensively for example). A player like this has value, but not top 5 value.

If you're asking me if he passes the eye test as someone with 1st line potential or someone who should have been a Top 5 pick? I can't say that he has. I feel like when you are picking in the top 5 there has to be some significant offensive potential (whether you are picking C, W or D) and I just don't know if Turcotte has that kind of offensive potential. I have seen with my eyes plenty of future 1st line players play in the Big Ten and I just don't know if he has the offensive game to be that kind of player.

I also don't think the Kings helped the situation at all, should have told him to go back to school and be dominant offensively and we will sign you at the end of the season. This will likely be two consecutive seasons where Turcotte struggles offensively, where as had he stayed in school he'd be gaining confidence offensively on one of the best teams in college hockey this year. Confidence is an important thing for offensive players.
 
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tbrown33 said:
Turcotte out with a lower body injury again, not expected to play Wednesday.
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As R. Jesus has mentioned this is really starting to be a bit concerning. Not gonna use injury prone but man this kid has been injured a lot in his young career. USNTDP, Wisconsin, Post WJC, and now the A. Not gonna be too worried but man kid seems to be made of fine China. Hoping it's not serious this time.
 
WhatTheFox said:
Ontario's D has been an obvious weak point, but it's interesting to note based on the 6 d-men who played today compared to the 6 d-men currently on the Kings, Ontario's defense is older on average. I dunno if that means anything.
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Outside of Doughty(31) in LA and Alt(29) in Ontario the defenses of both clubs are extremely young...and yes that's a good thing to have...rather lose with good promising youngsters than winning here and there with a bunch Ol' guys!
 
BringTheReign said:
Would you say Turcotte looked like a top 5 pick during the World Juniors? If so, that's still a larger sample size than his time in the AHL thus far. I get the frustration because I feel it at times as well, but if we're going to ding him for 5 AHL games we have to raise him up for being the #1C on a gold medal-winning WJC team too.

As for Arty, he leads the teams in shots on net (4 per game) and has just missed the net on 1-2 one-timers per game (which don't count towards SOG). That is not sustainable for a shooter of his skill, and he should be in line for some positive regression. His shooting volume is there which is good, the goals will follow.
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I kind of answered this in the other post about eye test. I don't really value WJC one way or the other. It's just a short tournament with guys who don't really play much together. Place more emphasis on the regular seasons of these players. I liked the Turcotte pick when it happened (was worried we'd be stuck with Dach :/ ), but after seeing him play a few times last year I'm just underwhelmed based on where the Kings took him and am concerned with his longterm offensive upside.

As for Arty, he's a tough guy to evaluate with an eye test, I said this in his thread but he reminds me of Luc Robitaille, another guy tough to evlaluate with an eye test. Arty's game is going to be the same at whatever level he plays at, either he's going to score or he's not going to play at that level. I am much more optimistic about him, I think he has a legit chance to lead this team in scoring multiple times in the future.
 
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At this point where we are almost a whole year into this damn pandemic, we've got a bunch of first year pros, with a brand new coach, some players just coming off injuries. I think its absolutely ridiculous to criticize any prospect not just within this organization, but everyone else as well and especially when we are barely a month into the season. Lafreniere has 1 f***ing point this season for crying out loud. Give. Prospects. Time.
 
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Herby said:
Depends on what you mean by the eye test.

If you're asking me if he passes the eye test as a future NHL'er? Yes, he does, I have never said otherwise. He has a high motor, he skates well and he has an above average skill set, he's never going to win a Selke but I think he is better defensively than his numbers have indicated (due to poor team def situations) but not as good as some have hyped (not close a prime Richards defensively for example). A player like this has value, but not top 5 value.

If you're asking me if he passes the eye test as someone with 1st line potential or someone who should have been a Top 5 pick? I can't say that he has. I feel like when you are picking in the top 5 there has to be some significant offensive potential (whether you are picking C, W or D) and I just don't know if Turcotte has that kind of offensive potential. I have seen with my eyes plenty of future 1st line players play in the Big Ten and I just don't know if he has the offensive game to be that kind of player.

I also don't think the Kings helped the situation at all, should have told him to go back to school and be dominant offensively and we will sign you at the end of the season. This will likely be two consecutive seasons where Turcotte struggles offensively, where as had he stayed in school he'd be gaining confidence offensively on one of the best teams in college hockey this year. Confidence is an important thing for offensive players.
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I was with you until the boldfaced where you start crystal balling based on 4 pro games.

It's hard to believe this is also you, posted literally minutes apart:

Herby said:
Boucher took 6 years to develop into a good d-man after this trade and then immediately signed with a division rival and became a borderline star d-man (no pun intended). Just to add some salt to it.
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I know you're extremely critical of Turcotte and that's fine, I just think your patience is extremely selective and in this case it's unfairly thin.
 
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Raccoon Jesus said:
I was with you until the boldfaced where you start crystal balling based on 4 pro games.

It's hard to believe this is also you, posted literally minutes apart:

I know you're extremely critical of Turcotte and that's fine, I just think your patience is extremely selective and in this case it's unfairly thin.
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You say I'm extremely critical, I think you continue to give a free pass more than I criticize. Last year what was it, Granato and his teammates? + The Mike Richards viral infection for the entire Big Ten season. Remember that? You think I am overly critical, but at what point do you get concerned at all?

We're 5 games in and he has yet to find the scoresheet and is now going to miss time with an injury, so it's more than likely that he ends up struggling offensively than not
But would you be happier if I said, second straight year where a player the Kings expect to be a dominant offensive player isn't?

The other one is just ridiculous to even compare apples to pickup trucks. Players, especially defenseman took much longer to develop then, and I was just giving credit to Boucher for sticking with it when basically the entire league had given up on him. I don't know how that compares to discussing Alex Turcotte and comparing him vs. players that were picked around him. If Alex Turcotte is Phillipe Boucher it's awful for the Kings.

Edit: Maybe we should move this to a different thread as to not clutter the Reign thread
 
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It's completely fair to wonder if Turcotte will be worthy of a Top 5 selection in his draft year based on the current progress of the 2019 draftees.

We'd all take Zegras and Cozens probably. Detroit still keeps Seider over him. The four before him remain above him.

It doesn't mean he is garbage but it's completely fair to wonder if they missed on the pick a bit.

Maybe Blake is really following the Lombardi rebuild by making the wrong pick with his first Top 5 selection. The injury thing is a legit issue right now.
 
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Herby said:
You say I'm extremely critical, I think you continue to give a free pass more than I criticize. Last year what was it, Granato and his teammates? + The Mike Richards viral infection for the entire Big Ten season. Remember that? You think I am overly critical, but at what point do you get concerned at all?

We're 5 games in and he has yet to find the scoresheet and is now going to miss time with an injury, so it's more than likely that he ends up struggling offensively than not
But would you be happier if I said, second straight year where a player the Kings expect to be a dominant offensive player isn't?

The other one is just ridiculous to even compare apples to pickup trucks. Players, especially defenseman took much longer to develop then, and I was just giving credit to Boucher for sticking with it when basically the entire league had given up on him. I don't know how that compares to discussing Alex Turcotte and comparing him vs. players that were picked around him. If Alex Turcotte is Phillipe Boucher it's awful for the Kings.

Edit: Maybe we should move this to a different thread as to not clutter the Reign thread
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No, last year I was very clear that he had 25 points in 19 games when he was healthy and 0 (or 1?) in 10 when everyone knew he was hurt. You extrapolated that to 'bad season,' I extrapolated that to 'great when healthy.' It's just different perspectives.

I'd be curious to go back and see if you gave up on Vilardi in similar manner.

It's not about 'making me happy,' and as I said it's fair to show concern, I don't think it's fair to throw your hands up and go "great he's going to be awful for the next 40 pro games because he didn't score in the first 4," especially when just about the whole team has the same snakebitten issues. I know close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades but there were at least 3 opportunities in the last few games including one that would have been goal of the year where had he finished I doubt we'd be having this conversation. I firmly believe that with more time that sort of stuff starts going in for everyone, not just Turcotte, and so to me, he's passing the eye test of a guy who is going to be very productive. As far as "top 5 productive?" Well, it doesn't appear he'll be able to appease you in any way, but I think he compares to Toews in so many ways, and so I'd be satisfied with a 60 point guy playing the two-way game he did at the WJCs.
 
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