Only once did a Hab hit 80 points during Carey Price's career. Is there a current/future HHOFer who had a worse supporting cast than this?

[Crosby2010]

Only reason he is even in the hof is because he played for Toronto

No, not true at all. Sundin would be a guy who would be constantly mentioned as the best player not in the HHOF if he weren't in by now. He had remarkable consistency year in and year out. Sundin is definitely not the barometer for HHOF centres. He's above it. Whether that is Toronto or Buffalo he played for.

 

[BLNY]

Gump Worsley is the only goalie in the hall with a losing record. He spent his latter 30s with Montreal, and won 4 cups, but he had great numbers on some very bad Rangers teams where he played the first 10 years of his career.

 

[Crosby2010]

Gump Worsley is the only goalie in the hall with a losing record. He spent his latter 30s with Montreal, and won 4 cups, but he had great numbers on some very bad Rangers teams where he played the first 10 years of his career.

Agreed. I think if Gump stays on the Rangers he could be the winner here. Although does he get into the Hall without the Montreal Cups?

 

[BLNY]

Agreed. I think if Gump stays on the Rangers he could be the winner here. Although does he get into the Hall without the Montreal Cups?

I think he does. His numbers were great. Maybe better with the Rangers. If we can argue that Price belongs because he had great numbers without a great cast and no cups, then it's logical to say Gump gets in.

 

[reckoning]

Roy Worters should own this category. His prime years were spent on teams that were usually near the bottom of the league in GF.

 

[Burke the Legend]

No, not true at all. Sundin would be a guy who would be constantly mentioned as the best player not in the HHOF if he weren't in by now. He had remarkable consistency year in and year out. Sundin is definitely not the barometer for HHOF centres. He's above it. Whether that is Toronto or Buffalo he played for.

He had like 2 seasons in top 10 points, zero awards.

 

[Hobnobs]

Mats Sundin never had an 80 point teammate in Toronto between 1994-95 and 2007-08 or a major trophy winner as a teammate, albeit Dead Puck Era was a little different.

Sundin and Iginla was my first thought. I know Iginla had a couple of 80 point teammates in there (Camalleri and Tanguay) but his team was pretty much barren as well.

He had like 2 seasons in top 10 points, zero awards.

Funnily enough there is more to the game of hockey than total points in the NHL. Shocking, I know...

 

[MadLuke]

He had like 2 seasons in top 10 points, zero awards.

A bit like Buffet once said 'Our investments are simply not aware that it takes 365-1/4 days for the earth to make it around the sun.' about some people focus on yearly result I think this is loosing the forest for the trees in Sundin case, if you look at Top 10 of someone with so many near Top 10 miss, look the couple of last years how hard it is to make a Top 20 in the modern 30+ teams league.

If we had the habbit to look at Top 10 points of combined season instead of single season, say what did you do in a group of 3, 5, 7 seasons, etc.., Sundin look really good. And one can ask yourself, doing so do we remove noise and make it a group more elite or not ? I think the bar is high enough to not be about compiling but sustained excellence. It does put a lot of value into playing 70 or more games every year, but that not a bad thing by itself, in a era of the league were making the playoff is hard.

If we look at group of 5 seasons, say like this, to keep short and keep the Naslund peak in here to not favor Sundin longevity/consistency too much, but still capturing it:

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

Who in the league made the most Top 10 over 5 seasons (letting them overlap) *the code for this was not robust against lockout year or any complexity.

[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD]FullName[/TD]
[TD]TopCount[/TD]
[TD]avgFinish[/TD]
[TD]Best Finish[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Gordie Howe[/TD]
[TD]21[/TD]
[TD]2.3[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Wayne Gretzky[/TD]
[TD]16[/TD]
[TD]2.3[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Jean Beliveau[/TD]
[TD]15[/TD]
[TD]4.8[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Joe Sakic[/TD]
[TD]14[/TD]
[TD]5.2[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Jaromir Jagr[/TD]
[TD]13[/TD]
[TD]1.8[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Marcel Dionne[/TD]
[TD]13[/TD]
[TD]3.9[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Alex Delvecchio[/TD]
[TD]13[/TD]
[TD]7.6[/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Stan Mikita[/TD]
[TD]12[/TD]
[TD]3.5[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Bobby Hull[/TD]
[TD]12[/TD]
[TD]3.6[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Sidney Crosby[/TD]
[TD]12[/TD]
[TD]4.3[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Ted Lindsay[/TD]
[TD]12[/TD]
[TD]4.3[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Norm Ullman[/TD]
[TD]12[/TD]
[TD]6.5[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Phil Esposito[/TD]
[TD]11[/TD]
[TD]2.0[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Maurice Richard[/TD]
[TD]11[/TD]
[TD]2.6[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Mario Lemieux[/TD]
[TD]11[/TD]
[TD]2.7[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Alex Ovechkin[/TD]
[TD]11[/TD]
[TD]3.2[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Joe Thornton[/TD]
[TD]11[/TD]
[TD]3.9[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Bernie Geoffrion[/TD]
[TD]11[/TD]
[TD]6.0[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Andy Bathgate[/TD]
[TD]10[/TD]
[TD]3.2[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Steve Yzerman[/TD]
[TD]10[/TD]
[TD]5.8[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Johnny Bucyk[/TD]
[TD]10[/TD]
[TD]6.8[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Patrick Kane[/TD]
[TD]9[/TD]
[TD]4.1[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Jean Ratelle[/TD]
[TD]9[/TD]
[TD]5.4[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Frank Mahovlich[/TD]
[TD]9[/TD]
[TD]6.6[/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Guy Lafleur[/TD]
[TD]8[/TD]
[TD]3.3[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Martin St. Louis[/TD]
[TD]8[/TD]
[TD]4.6[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Adam Oates[/TD]
[TD]8[/TD]
[TD]4.9[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Henri Richard[/TD]
[TD]8[/TD]
[TD]7.1[/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Jarome Iginla[/TD]
[TD]8[/TD]
[TD]7.5[/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Bobby Clarke[/TD]
[TD]7[/TD]
[TD]3.9[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Jari Kurri[/TD]
[TD]7[/TD]
[TD]4.1[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Teemu Selanne[/TD]
[TD]7[/TD]
[TD]4.7[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Peter Forsberg[/TD]
[TD]7[/TD]
[TD]5.4[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Darryl Sittler[/TD]
[TD]7[/TD]
[TD]5.6[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Dale Hawerchuk[/TD]
[TD]7[/TD]
[TD]5.9[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Gilbert Perreault[/TD]
[TD]7[/TD]
[TD]6.1[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Mats Sundin[/TD]
[TD]7[/TD]
[TD]7.0[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Mike Bossy[/TD]
[TD]6[/TD]
[TD]2.3[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Bobby Orr[/TD]
[TD]6[/TD]
[TD]2.5[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Bryan Trottier[/TD]
[TD]6[/TD]
[TD]3.7[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Henrik Sedin[/TD]
[TD]6[/TD]
[TD]4.3[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Dickie Moore[/TD]
[TD]6[/TD]
[TD]5.0[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Claude Giroux[/TD]
[TD]6[/TD]
[TD]5.5[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Peter Stastny[/TD]
[TD]6[/TD]
[TD]5.7[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Ted Kennedy[/TD]
[TD]6[/TD]
[TD]5.8[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Denis Savard[/TD]
[TD]6[/TD]
[TD]5.8[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Elmer Lach[/TD]
[TD]6[/TD]
[TD]6.7[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Bert Olmstead[/TD]
[TD]6[/TD]
[TD]7.2[/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Pierre Turgeon[/TD]
[TD]6[/TD]
[TD]7.2[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Bernie Federko[/TD]
[TD]6[/TD]
[TD]7.7[/TD]
[TD]6[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Mark Recchi[/TD]
[TD]6[/TD]
[TD]7.8[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Rod Gilbert[/TD]
[TD]6[/TD]
[TD]8.2[/TD]
[TD]6[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Michel Goulet[/TD]
[TD]6[/TD]
[TD]8.7[/TD]
[TD]6[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

The only name that show up in continue excellence not in the Hall his Turgeon I think, which should end up in one day and a controversial one to be left out, and Turgeon with half of Sundin International resume for team Canada would have been in the first year of eligibility, complete non brainer.

And it is not like Sundin is weak at hockey outside accumulating point or was not a line driver and able to do it in any team circumstance at any stage and he did it in a 30 teams league for the most part, enjoyed maybe not the best era of top healthy forward at some points but also missed a Top 10 by a spot when he scored 114pts at some other point.

First column, is their number of top 10, second column is their average, say someone did a Top 2-7-8 the average will be 17/3, the lower the better, last column is their best Top 10 result, lower the better.

Add, looking like one if not the best player in the world on the biggest stages and being the Swedish captain for a decade over Forsberg-Lidstrom:

• Named to the World Championships All-Star Team in 1992 and 2003.
• World Championships' Best Forward in 1992 and 2003.
• Named to the Canada Cup All-Star Team in 1991.
• Named to the World Cup of Hockey All-Star Team in 1996.
• Named to the Olympic Tournament All-Star Team in 2002.

How can you tell the story of hockey (international and nhl) from Sundin being the first euro 1st overall in 89 to his hyped cup chasing days pre-retirement and exclude him for either the Hockey Hall of Fame or the IIHF, he is not even a borderline pick imo, we are talking about someone that did not felt specially weird to get in the first year of eligibility or to get a statue in Toronto.

 

[Crosby2010]

I think he does. His numbers were great. Maybe better with the Rangers. If we can argue that Price belongs because he had great numbers without a great cast and no cups, then it's logical to say Gump gets in.

I guess the argument against him would be that as a goalie he never was a 1st or 2nd all-star in those years. Luongo was on a bad Florida team in 2004 and was a 2nd team all-star. Not that I don't agree Gump has a chance though either way as he might get a lot of credit for being that good goalie on rotten teams.

Roy Worters should own this category. His prime years were spent on teams that were usually near the bottom of the league in GF.

Glad someone mentioned Shrimp Worters

He had like 2 seasons in top 10 points, zero awards.

It goes beyond that with Sundin. How many times was he in the top 20 in points? Twice in the top 10 sure, but this is a guy that went 17 straight years without going below 72 points. In any given season you knew Sundin was at least a point a game guy. For that long that is some small company. It is like a better version of Mike Gartner getting at least 30 goals in 15 straight years. But we all know Sundin was a better player than Gartner. By the way, the Hall is filled with guys who never won any awards.

 

[BLNY]

I guess the argument against him would be that as a goalie he never was a 1st or 2nd all-star in those years. Luongo was on a bad Florida team in 2004 and was a 2nd team all-star. Not that I don't agree Gump has a chance though either way as he might get a lot of credit for being that good goalie on rotten teams.

Gump was up against some seriously heavy hitters in a six team league. Sawchuk, Plante, Hall, Bower; that's a serious list.

 

[FissionFire]

Dominik Hasek had a pretty mediocre supporting cast up until his late career trade to Detroit, when he was already 37.

 

[Crosby2010]

Gump was up against some seriously heavy hitters in a six team league. Sawchuk, Plante, Hall, Bower; that's a serious list.

That would be the other argument of course.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Carey Price is very underrated.

Easily the best goalie since Martin Brodeur.

Price had everything going for him; leadership, ability to perform in the toughest market, elite stickhandling skills, size, athleticism and perfect technic.

I would pick him as my goalie for the next 20 years without thinking twice. I don't think he's significantly below any Montreal goalie of the past. They were more clutch, so they deserve their higher rank, but Price was right up there.

 

[Crosby2010]

Carey Price is very underrated.

Easily the best goalie since Martin Brodeur.

Price had everything going for him; leadership, ability to perform in the toughest market, elite stickhandling skills, size, athleticism and perfect technic.

I would pick him as my goalie for the next 20 years without thinking twice. I don't think he's significantly below any Montreal goalie of the past. They were more clutch, so they deserve their higher rank, but Price was right up there.

That's impressive. Not to take anything away from Price but that's very high praise for a goalie who doesn't normally get that sort of praise. I think his injuries have robbed us off seeing him more. Also he missed a couple of Olympics he would have been in had the NHL gotten their heads straight.

 

[wetcoast]

In 2008 Alex Kovalev had an 84 point year with Montreal. This was Carey Price's rookie season. After that no Canadien ever hit 80 points. There was PK Subban winning the Norris in that shortened season in 2013, but that is about all Price had in the way of any sort of good support in his career, which I assume is done more or less. The Habs went from 110 points in 2015 which was Price's incredible Hart season to 82 points and missing the playoffs the following season when Price played 12 games but still went 10-2. Then the surprise Stanley Cup final in 2021 with Price leading the way to him playing 5 games the next year in 2022 and the team having less points than they had in the 56 game shortened season in 2021. The monumental impact he had on the Habs is well pronounced. While I know there are arguments against this I feel most posters consider Price to be a Hall of Famer when he is eligible. So if that is the case is there a guy who was on worse teams and had less support in his career than Price that is in the Hall?

Is Carey Price the goalie version of Marcel Dionne, now there was a guy who had very little support and made stars out of a reclamation project in Charlie Simmer and a guy drafted 210th overall in 1975.

 

[Crosby2010]

Is Carey Price the goalie version of Marcel Dionne, now there was a guy who had very little support and made stars out of a reclamation project in Charlie Simmer and a guy drafted 210th overall in 1975.

He very much could be. First guy I thought of outside of Iginla. Iggy did have some good teams outside of Calgary and some potential Cup teams later in his career. But he was older then and those teams didn't win. As for Dionne, yeah outside of the Triple Crown line that team was a black hole for the most part. I don't know what I would have done differently as a coach. Maybe break that line up and spread the wealth a bit, who knows. But they never had success.

 

[JianYang]

That's impressive. Not to take anything away from Price but that's very high praise for a goalie who doesn't normally get that sort of praise. I think his injuries have robbed us off seeing him more. Also he missed a couple of Olympics he would have been in had the NHL gotten their heads straight.

I know that kreider takeout in 2014 gets the most attention, but he had other seasons as well where he could not finish out the season or playoffs due to injury.

Thats one of the sad parts about his career. It also makes you wonder how long he was playing in pain, and if that was the root cause for his substance issues which surfaced late in his career.

 

[Crosby2010]

I know that kreider takeout in 2014 gets the most attention, but he had other seasons as well where he could not finish out the season or playoffs due to injury.

Thats one of the sad parts about his career. It also makes you wonder how long he was playing in pain, and if that was the root cause for his substance issues which surfaced late in his career.

It could very well be. No doubt he was playing in pain in the 2021 playoffs. He had to have been.

 

[markymarc1215]

The Dominik Hasek late 90s teams had no one close to being an offensive dynamo.

Lundqvist never had any real scoring machines aside from the Jagr line in 05-06 and 06-07, plus a few good years from Gaborik sprinkled in here and there.

Brodeur never had a lot either beyond Elias and Sykora, maybe a spot year of Arnott and Gomez

 

[JianYang]

The Dominik Hasek late 90s teams had no one close to being an offensive dynamo.

Lundqvist never had any real scoring machines aside from the Jagr line in 05-06 and 06-07, plus a few good years from Gaborik sprinkled in here and there.

Brodeur never had a lot either beyond Elias and Sykora, maybe a spot year of Arnott and Gomez

Depends on what your definition of offensive dynamo is. I'm not saying the Sabres had much, but satan was pretty darn good. Probably around that Pacioretty realm as a goal scorer.

Brodeur teams were generally ultra defensive, but from a pure talent perspective, he had alot more infront of him.