Only once did a Hab hit 80 points during Carey Price's career. Is there a current/future HHOFer who had a worse supporting cast than this?

[Crosby2010]

In 2008 Alex Kovalev had an 84 point year with Montreal. This was Carey Price's rookie season. After that no Canadien ever hit 80 points. There was PK Subban winning the Norris in that shortened season in 2013, but that is about all Price had in the way of any sort of good support in his career, which I assume is done more or less. The Habs went from 110 points in 2015 which was Price's incredible Hart season to 82 points and missing the playoffs the following season when Price played 12 games but still went 10-2. Then the surprise Stanley Cup final in 2021 with Price leading the way to him playing 5 games the next year in 2022 and the team having less points than they had in the 56 game shortened season in 2021. The monumental impact he had on the Habs is well pronounced. While I know there are arguments against this I feel most posters consider Price to be a Hall of Famer when he is eligible. So if that is the case is there a guy who was on worse teams and had less support in his career than Price that is in the Hall?

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[ContrarianGoaltender]

I think Carey Price is an obvious Hall of Famer, but at the same time I'm not sure this is the best argument in his favour. I don't see why a single player's point total is more relevant than a team's overall level of offence when we're talking about support for a goalie.

It's simply been a characteristic of recent Hab rosters that their best 5-on-5 scorers haven't been all that productive on the power play (players like Pacioretty, Danault, Gallagher, etc.), which lowers their individual scoring numbers.

If you look at Montreal's top 15 seasons in ESP since 2007-08, Kovalev isn't even on that list. And Tomas Plekanec (twice) was the only one of those players to score more than 17 PPP in the same season. Montreal has had a very point-man dominant power play with their defencemen combining to account for 11 of the top 20 PPP seasons over that same time frame, led by players like Markov, Subban and Weber.

If you weight Montreal's overall goal scoring by Price's games played, it turns out that his teams have produced total offence at a rate that is 99% of league average. That's clearly worse than a lot of great goalies who played much of their careers on very strong teams, of course, but it's at the same time not quite as bad as the "one guy with more than 80 points" framing makes it seem.

 

[MadLuke]

Over the whole tenure, the main guy was maybe Markov, which, the 50 wins montreal team did not had a 80 points forward in a low scoring league and Price was clearly the main piece but:

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The Subban-Markov d pair was really an elite one, elite dynamic guy with an experimented superbe hockey sense Markov, bring Petry for the playoff and
Subban-Markov-Petry-Emelin-Gilbert- no need for anyone else was a legit really good defensive group.

Forward was nothing above mediocre if it fully reached that level, but if we shift the forward group quality with the defensive one, we would call it a nice support with the Markov-Subban offensive forward star. A 60 pts D in 2014-2015 was probably not that far the equivalent of an 80 pts forward (there was 5 80 pts forward, 3 60pts d)

 

[MadLuke]

That said after looking at Lundvist and some others of the modern one, I am not sure if it is easy to come up with a clear answer for the post ww2 crowd.

Iginla 00 to 12 with Calgary whole prime ? maybe.

Cammalleri-Tanguay are the only one to do it, 82 and 81 pts season (but would they have without Iginla on their teams, that one thing that will happen with non goaltenders push over 80 pts season among teammates), and I think Price played with those 2.

Obviously he had Kiprusoft, Phaneuf, Bouwmmeester, Morris, Harmrlik, Regehr, Giordano and co. with him that would not translate into 80 pts seasons

 

[Crosby2010]

It isn't just about 80 point seasons. That was just more of an example to show the lack of support and even a game breaker type of player that Price has been without his entire career. I do like the Iginla comparison. At the tail end of his career he did have a couple of teams in which he was traded to that had a lot of support and even contended for a Cup, or should have. But he came on Calgary during the 1996 playoffs at a time when their once great regular seasons were over.

 

[JianYang]

He had Markov, subban, and petry infront of him all at the same time at one point.... Then subban was subbed in for weber, who was still good, but he had some injury issues as well right from the start.

The shame here was that price didn't get to play with Markov much in his prime because he was always hurt.

Price broke out in 2011, and maybe they go on another run that year if Markov was available in the playoffs. Instead they lost to the cup winners in game 7 OT of the first round.

 

[Stephen]

Mats Sundin never had an 80 point teammate in Toronto between 1994-95 and 2007-08 or a major trophy winner as a teammate, albeit Dead Puck Era was a little different.

 

[Mandar]

I think Carey Price is an obvious Hall of Famer, but at the same time I'm not sure this is the best argument in his favour. I don't see why a single player's point total is more relevant than a team's overall level of offence when we're talking about support for a goalie.

It's simply been a characteristic of recent Hab rosters that their best 5-on-5 scorers haven't been all that productive on the power play (players like Pacioretty, Danault, Gallagher, etc.), which lowers their individual scoring numbers.

If you look at Montreal's top 15 seasons in ESP since 2007-08, Kovalev isn't even on that list. And Tomas Plekanec (twice) was the only one of those players to score more than 17 PPP in the same season. Montreal has had a very point-man dominant power play with their defencemen combining to account for 11 of the top 20 PPP seasons over that same time frame, led by players like Markov, Subban and Weber.

If you weight Montreal's overall goal scoring by Price's games played, it turns out that his teams have produced total offence at a rate that is 99% of league average. That's clearly worse than a lot of great goalies who played much of their careers on very strong teams, of course, but it's at the same time not quite as bad as the "one guy with more than 80 points" framing makes it seem.

OP.....this kinda says it all. Doesnt really matter if there is a "game breaker" type of player...their offensive output during his years wasnt lacking at all (compared to the rest of the league). You say "is there a guy who was on worse teams and had less support in his career than Price that is in the Hall?" The fact is...Price didnt suffer from lack of support.

 

[MadLuke]

If we put Price prime to be 2011-2017, montreal was 20th in goals:

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In that windows, that not even mediocre, it is below "making the playoff" ranking.

That also show how limited in time we are talking about here, if we take Erik Karlsson prime with the senators ? Almost the same one, were the Karlsson less sens more impressive than the Price less Habs ? Both reach the conference final.

With Still a bit of Spezza left early, Karlsson had a single 80 pts player season with him, highest after that would be 66 pts from 2014 Spezza.

But post injuries Karlsson got on a strong Sharks team for a while.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

He had Markov, subban, and petry infront of him all at the same time at one point.... Then subban was subbed in for weber, who was still good, but he had some injury issues as well right from the start.

The shame here was that price didn't get to play with Markov much in his prime because he was always hurt.

Price broke out in 2011, and maybe they go on another run that year if Markov was available in the playoffs. Instead they lost to the cup winners in game 7 OT of the first round.

This.

Yeah he didnt have "game breaking" forwards, but that doesn't really effect his stats. What he did always have was a rock solid D group in front of him and years behind a stud top pair of Markov-Subban

Markov, Subban, Weber, Streit, Hamrlik, Gorges, Emelin, Komisarek, Edmundson are all rock solid defenders (some more than others) and made for a perennially good to great D group

 

[GMR]

That said after looking at Lundvist and some others of the modern one, I am not sure if it is easy to come up with a clear answer for the post ww2 crowd.

Iginla 00 to 12 with Calgary whole prime ? maybe.

Cammalleri-Tanguay are the only one to do it, 82 and 81 pts season (but would they have without Iginla on their teams, that one thing that will happen with non goaltenders push over 80 pts season among teammates), and I think Price played with those 2.

Obviously he had Kiprusoft, Phaneuf, Bouwmmeester, Morris, Harmrlik, Regehr, Giordano and co. with him that would not translate into 80 pts seasons

Yeah, Iginla was the first player I thought of. I still can't believe he scored over 600 goals playing with those lineups.

 

[MadLuke]

Yeah, Iginla was the first player I thought of. I still can't believe he scored over 600 goals playing with those lineups.

After looking at prime Karlsson senators, I think we could include him.

Sundin had the 93-94 Nordiques during his prime, filled with high end talents and because his prime was so long,

95-2004 Leafs was one of the highest spending franchise in the whole league, that get underrated easily because it is Toronto..

They were not always great, Sundin often by far the best a lot of their HOF were way out of prime.

This was not great forward support for someone reaching the conference finals:

1998-99 Toronto Maple Leafs Roster, Stats, Injuries, Scores, Results, Shootouts | Hockey-Reference.com

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After Steve Thomas you go with
Bohonos, Berezin, Johnson, Sullivan, Perreault, King has the group that play 15 minutes or more.

but Joseph in goals, young Berard-Kaberle-Danny Markov at D. After that he had the McCabe-Kaberle era with expensive veteran help a la Roberts-Nieuwendyk-Renberg and co.

This was not wise team building and efficient spending:

2003-04 Toronto Maple Leafs Roster, Stats, Injuries, Scores, Results, Shootouts | Hockey-Reference.com

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But that was a team spending a giant amount on support, with Ed Belfour in net having an excellent late season and playoff.

And we need to forget the Nordiques and early Leafs (that had Gilmour-Murphy-Gartner-Anderychuck-Mathieu Scheieder, Potvin in net, playoff Kirk Muller-Wendel Clark), there a Sundin window comparable to Price I would imagine between those 2.

 

[Stephen]

After looking at prime Karlsson senators, I think we could include him.

Sundin had the 93-94 Nordiques during his prime, filled with high end talents and because his prime was so long,

95-2004 Leafs was one of the highest spending franchise in the whole league, that get underrated easily because it is Toronto..

They were not always great, Sundin often by far the best a lot of their HOF were way out of prime.

This was not great forward support for someone reaching the conference finals:

1998-99 Toronto Maple Leafs Roster, Stats, Injuries, Scores, Results, Shootouts | Hockey-Reference.com

Check out the latest Toronto Maple Leafs Roster, Stats, Injuries, Scores, Results, Shootouts and more on Hockey-Reference.com

www.hockey-reference.com

After Steve Thomas you go with
Bohonos, Berezin, Johnson, Sullivan, Perreault, King has the group that play 15 minutes or more.

but Joseph in goals, young Berard-Kaberle-Danny Markov at D. After that he had the McCabe-Kaberle era with expensive veteran help a la Roberts-Nieuwendyk-Renberg and co.

This was not wise team building and efficient spending:

2003-04 Toronto Maple Leafs Roster, Stats, Injuries, Scores, Results, Shootouts | Hockey-Reference.com

Check out the latest Toronto Maple Leafs Roster, Stats, Injuries, Scores, Results, Shootouts and more on Hockey-Reference.com

www.hockey-reference.com

But that was a team spending a giant amount on support, with Ed Belfour in net having an excellent late season and playoff.

And we need to forget the Nordiques and early Leafs (that had Gilmour-Murphy-Gartner-Anderychuck-Mathieu Scheieder, Potvin in net, playoff Kirk Muller-Wendel Clark), there a Sundin window comparable to Price I would imagine between those 2.

The 1998-99 Leafs were a surprise conference finalist. Their odd mash up of veterans and youth was basically evidence of a youth movement/rebuild in progress that was super charged by the addition of Joseph to replace Potvin. Other than that, that group wasn’t really expected to contend.

By 2000 they were definitely moving away from the youth movement into more of a win now mode. But more of a win now without the high end spending of a Colorado, Detroit or even Dallas.

Back to Price. It’s not that the Habs weren’t a good team during the 2010s. They just lacked championship upside.

 

[Crosby2010]

This.

Yeah he didnt have "game breaking" forwards, but that doesn't really effect his stats. What he did always have was a rock solid D group in front of him and years behind a stud top pair of Markov-Subban

Markov, Subban, Weber, Streit, Hamrlik, Gorges, Emelin, Komisarek, Edmundson are all rock solid defenders (some more than others) and made for a perennially good to great D group

But without Price we saw plenty of evidence of how this team played. Look at 2015, this is Price's Hart year and they have 110 points, 2nd in the NHL. Then 82 the next year. A 28 point drop. As Price went, so did the Habs.

Good seasons by Montreal in 2014 and 2015. Price has good seasons. Then 12 games in 2016 and the Habs drop like a stone. The Habs are rolling in the 2014 playoffs, then the first game vs. the Rangers he's hurt after Chris Kreider runs into him and the Habs lose the series. Then in 2017 back with a Vezina-caliber year and the Habs as well rebound with 103 points. I really don't know why he dropped so low in 2018, but either way, so did the Habs again with a lousy season. Shea Weber is hurt most of the year so that hurts too. Then not a bad year again in 2019, and to no surprise the Habs do better again although somehow miss the playoffs with 96 points.

A surprise trip to the final on a team that was barely above .500. Why were they barely above .500? Price missed half of the season. But this team marches to the final on his back. Since the 2021 Cup final Price has played 5 games and the Habs were last overall in 2022 and are a bit better this year but still bad.

From 2011 which is the time he really busted out up until now, any success the Habs have had, or haven't had, has been directly tied to the sort of season he had or the amount of games he has played. To me I don't think this leads to a guy that has had much of a supporting cast. He's basically like how the Sabres were if you took out Hasek. Hasek had support later in his career on different teams, but the similarities are there when you look at Hasek's support (by the way, obviously not comparing the two goalies). Karlsson as mentioned in this thread comes to mind as well, but he has had some support with the Sharks earlier on, better than anything Price saw. But it still is a good name of a player that is in Price's boat. Marcel Dionne to an extent can be that guy too. Sure the Triple Crown line, which he was the driver for, but he was on black holes of teams outside of that.

 

[The Panther]

Over Price's career (up to 2021), Montreal ranked 17th of 31 clubs in goals for. That's marginally below average for the period, but just marginally. Their power-play was surprisingly even a little above average, though I suppose that means that ES scoring was a bit below average.

So, it's not like Montreal was at the bottom in scoring during Price's career (New Jersey was, btw).

But it is a bit odd how the Habs have not had any big offensive seasons since Damphousse / Turgeon in the mid-90s, or even Naslund's points in 1986. And goals-wise, Richer in 1990. Their last 40-goal scorer was nearly 40 years ago!

(Incidentally, from the autumn of 1980 to today, Montreal's top scorer is Saku Koivu...)

 

[FerrisRox]

Mats Sundin never had an 80 point teammate in Toronto between 1994-95 and 2007-08 or a major trophy winner as a teammate, albeit Dead Puck Era was a little different.

He did, however, have a teammate performing at a point-a-game.

In 2002-03, Sundin finished second in team scoring while Alex Mogilny had 79 points in 73 games.

 

[Melrose Munch]

Mats Sundin never had an 80 point teammate in Toronto between 1994-95 and 2007-08 or a major trophy winner as a teammate, albeit Dead Puck Era was a little different.

Your right... but Alex Mogilny was injured, that's why. He was on pace for 70-plus each year with the Leafs.
~~~~~~~
Pacioretty didn't do enough. End of story. He was the leader. PK won a Norris and was a top 10 defenseman for at least 3 years.

 

[Stephen]

He did, however, have a teammate performing at a point-a-game.

In 2002-03, Sundin finished second in team scoring while Alex Mogilny had 79 points in 73 games.

Numbers are numbers.

 

[MXD]

Numbers are numbers.

Sundin can (and does) have an influence on the offensive production of his teammates though. Price, really, doesn't, or at least not as directly.

~~~~~~~
Pacioretty didn't do enough. End of story. He was the leader. PK won a Norris and was a top 10 defenseman for at least 3 years.

...Not really.
I mean I guess he could've benefitted from slightly better goalscoring support from Center, but 30+ goals and -70 points (for that time period) reflects his talent level.

 

[Burke the Legend]

Mats Sundin never had an 80 point teammate in Toronto between 1994-95 and 2007-08 or a major trophy winner as a teammate, albeit Dead Puck Era was a little different.

Only reason he is even in the hof is because he played for Toronto

 

[Stephen]

Sundin can (and does) have an influence on the offensive production of his teammates though. Price, really, doesn't, or at least not as directly.

I'm just commenting in terms of statistical anomaly of not having an 80 point teammate over a long term, not a woe is me contest.

 

[Stephen]

Only reason he is even in the hof is because he played for Toronto

Makes sense, it's a big deal playing for Toronto.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Low scoring era and they played to their goaltender by being a defensive minded team.

 

[MadLuke]

Only reason he is even in the hof is because he played for Toronto

What Alfredsson has over Sundin ?

Long tenured captain of any relevant team would have been more than enough to lock him, from 97-04, 2 forward had more points than Sundin, Sakic-Jagr, no problem putting Forsberg when he play ahead of him, but that not that clear who else (some would pick Modano-Fedorov I am sure, but it is no clear cut).

In a world that every year you put over 2 nhler in the Hall, there will be no arguably Top 4 forward of an era that has super longevity outside of it and an argument for the biggest Captain of his international team of a top hockey nation that was the face of a relevant franchise for more than a decade that will miss the hall.

Over Price's career (up to 2021), Montreal ranked 17th of 31 clubs in goals for.

And I think around 20th in the window Price was in his full prime.

Maybe a better way to look at it, from 11 to 17, with Price in net Montreal were 210W, 37 OT points in 375 (372 started), had a .923 save percentage and a 2.29 GAA, that 457 pts on 372 game started on a pace of 100.7 pts by seasons, that's almost exactly the Boston Bruins of that era in terms of wins and the best defence in the league tie with the Kings.

Without Price in net, they go to
168 game started, 75 wins, 25OT points, .911, a 85 pts pace, about the Devils of that era, a lot of those non Price game were played by a borderline number 1 Peter Budaj, but most by a collection of typical replacement level. In that era 92-98 pts was what you needed to reach the playoff in the east depending on the seasons.

 

[JianYang]

But without Price we saw plenty of evidence of how this team played. Look at 2015, this is Price's Hart year and they have 110 points, 2nd in the NHL. Then 82 the next year. A 28 point drop. As Price went, so did the Habs.

Good seasons by Montreal in 2014 and 2015. Price has good seasons. Then 12 games in 2016 and the Habs drop like a stone. The Habs are rolling in the 2014 playoffs, then the first game vs. the Rangers he's hurt after Chris Kreider runs into him and the Habs lose the series. Then in 2017 back with a Vezina-caliber year and the Habs as well rebound with 103 points. I really don't know why he dropped so low in 2018, but either way, so did the Habs again with a lousy season. Shea Weber is hurt most of the year so that hurts too. Then not a bad year again in 2019, and to no surprise the Habs do better again although somehow miss the playoffs with 96 points.

A surprise trip to the final on a team that was barely above .500. Why were they barely above .500? Price missed half of the season. But this team marches to the final on his back. Since the 2021 Cup final Price has played 5 games and the Habs were last overall in 2022 and are a bit better this year but still bad.

From 2011 which is the time he really busted out up until now, any success the Habs have had, or haven't had, has been directly tied to the sort of season he had or the amount of games he has played. To me I don't think this leads to a guy that has had much of a supporting cast. He's basically like how the Sabres were if you took out Hasek. Hasek had support later in his career on different teams, but the similarities are there when you look at Hasek's support (by the way, obviously not comparing the two goalies). Karlsson as mentioned in this thread comes to mind as well, but he has had some support with the Sharks earlier on, better than anything Price saw. But it still is a good name of a player that is in Price's boat. Marcel Dionne to an extent can be that guy too. Sure the Triple Crown line, which he was the driver for, but he was on black holes of teams outside of that.

I think each case has to be looked at individually.

Price was obviously a superstar, and any season where your superstar misses the entire year, you are going to be in trouble. That season you refer to in 2016, the problem just as big as losing their number 1 goalie is that they didn't even have a #2 goalie. Mike Condon was the guy who was asked to carry the load. He was fine in spot duty but carrying the load is a whole different beast, and he imploded.

Compare that to earlier teams such as the price /budaj era. It didn't seem to matter if price or budaj were in net, the Habs still were winning games.... Although budaj would eventually lose trust with the coaching staff, he still had a good run, and was a legitimate backup.

Otherwise, the Habs have tried to plug the backup position with journeyman guys who just were either at the end of the rope, or just weren't very good.... Auld, tokarski, scrivens, Montoya, Niemi, lindgren, kinkaid

They finally addressed it when they signed Jake Allen but then price turned out to be at the end of the road himself.

As for the covid season, they had a pretty good start, but things fell off the rails eventually. I remember because of covid shutdowns, they were playing the last 2 months either every day or every other day while a new coach was trying to put his print on the team (the old coach was fired mid season) while travelling across Canada.

It was asinine schedule even by covid standards, and the first time they had more than one day between games was for the playoffs.... They got two days between games from the end of the regular season to the opening playoff game, and then it was back to playing every other day again for another 2 months.