Ondrej Pavelec

[TheDarkKnight]

One of the most bang on articles I've read on the issue thus far. Thought or opinions?

http://www.thehockeynews.com/blog/ondrej-pavelec-the-worst-decision-the-winnipeg-jets-have-made-so-far/

Click to read more...

 

[Samcanadian]

How much does the defense come in to blame here? I'm not a save Pavs kind of guy, but it's not like he's making top 10 or even top 15 money. Yeah he's kind of sucked lately, but I think we can all admit we assumed his numbers would improve as we began to develop a d corps in front of him.

That being said... The bottom line is that Pavs numbers suck and are some of the worst out of all starting goalies in the league. Can't really argue that away.

 

[Rook37]

Agree 100%. I avoid talking about it in case I'm wrong, but I expect a new starting goalie to be the single biggest improvement the Jets can make. I've been waiting for them to prove me wrong for a while now.

 

[White Out 403*]

great thread title. his stats speak for himself over a huge volume of games. people who blame the defense are excusing pavelec.

edit: read the whole article and god damn thats well written. huge thumbs up

 

[YWGinYYZ]

great thread title. his stats speak for himself over a huge volume of games. people who blame the defense are excusing pavelec.

edit: read the whole article and god damn thats well written. huge thumbs up

Can we not blame Pavelec AND the defense?

 

[White Out 403*]

Can we not blame Pavelec AND the defense?

of course!

but the easiest fastest fix is 1 player IE pavelec, rather tahn trying to figure out the hecks wrong with our D or system.

 

[YWGinYYZ]

of course!

but the easiest fastest fix is 1 player IE pavelec, rather tahn trying to figure out the hecks wrong with our D or system.

Can't we fix both? Wouldn't that produce even better results? Imagine having a D system and core that would allow a goalie to not be on top of their game at ALL times, and only needs the goalie to bail them out on occasion.

That would be my happy little world.

 

[White Out 403*]

Can't we fix both? Wouldn't that produce even better results? Imagine having a D system and core that would allow a goalie to not be on top of their game at ALL times, and only needs the goalie to bail them out on occasion.

That would be my happy little world.

Well, the easiest and fastest fix is 1 player whose above his head. id say this:
if we got an average D in front of pavelec we would miss the playoffs
we got an average goaltender behind our defense we'd be a lot closer to the playoffs.

pavelec isnt an nhl #1 goaltender by any stretch. i dont like muddying the issue by bringing in the D. Yes it needs to be better but pavs is the far bigger problem

 

[Savagestevo]

I feel all these articles calling out Pavelec are excusing this teams absolutely awful defense. Don't get me wrong, Pavelec really has not been good enough and the Jets could use an upgrade but for the past few seasons the Jets have been doing a good job of making their goalie look worse than he already is.

 

[White Out 403*]

I feel all these articles calling out Pavelec are excusing this teams absolutely awful defense. Don't get me wrong, Pavelec really has not been good enough and the Jets could use an upgrade but for the past few seasons the Jets have been doing a good job of making their goalie look worse than he already is.

I disagree. This article is the nail on the head. It's not just the last 2 years this is data from 5 seasons. Isn't that enough to convince you or are you now suggesting that for the last 5 years we've had the worst defence in history, rotating back and forth? I think more realistically this article is just pointing out the fastest way to improve, and our next biggest problem, is Pavelec himself. Not the D.

 

[abax44]

He's a starting goalie in the NHL, so by definition he IS a #1 goalie.

 

[SCP Guy]

How did Flaherty survive the axe? Shouldn't he be held accountable for Pav?

 

[YWGinYYZ]

I disagree. This article is the nail on the head. It's not just the last 2 years this is data from 5 seasons. Isn't that enough to convince you or are you now suggesting that for the last 5 years we've had the worst defence in history, rotating back and forth? I think more realistically this article is just pointing out the fastest way to improve, and our next biggest problem, is Pavelec himself. Not the D.

Pavelec is not great. D is currently not good either (look at our SA). I would like to see an improvement in both areas. I would be happy to see ONE improve, and ecstatic if both improved.

I'm an equal opportunity chastiser.

 

[Savagestevo]

I disagree. This article is the nail on the head. It's not just the last 2 years this is data from 5 seasons. Isn't that enough to convince you or are you now suggesting that for the last 5 years we've had the worst defence in history, rotating back and forth? I think more realistically this article is just pointing out the fastest way to improve, and our next biggest problem, is Pavelec himself. Not the D.

Well it's been close to the worst in the league for quite some time now, in any case.

Pavelec is not a very good goaltender, he has a tendency to let in bad goals and that's a bad thing for this team because it seems like the Jets let themselves get discouraged rather easily. With that being said though if nothing is done to improve this teams defense bringing in a league average goaltender would only make a marginal difference. It's a start, sure, but he isn't holding the Jets back from greatness, he could have perhaps held them back from making the playoffs the past couple of seasons, but even if the Jets did make it those two years they would have been easily handled by their opponent in the first round. Unless you bring in some elite tender you won't see the Jets improve exponentially. Pavelec lets in bad goals, he also lets in ones that no goalie would have any chance and is hung out to dry quite often.

 

[blueandgoldguy]

Just wait until Pavs leads the Czech team to a medal at the Olympics. He'll show all of you what a goalie can do with a half-decent defense.

 

[tbcwpg]

of course!

but the easiest fastest fix is 1 player IE pavelec, rather tahn trying to figure out the hecks wrong with our D or system.

The problem with this line of thinking is that it assumes if you fix one thing, it fixes both things that are broken, which it doesn't. The defence didn't let the Coyotes have any room tonight and, lo and behold, Pavelec comes out with a +.940 save percentage.

They both need fixing. The team will not improve if both Pavelec AND the defence don't improve.

 

[White Out 403*]

The problem with this line of thinking is that it assumes if you fix one thing, it fixes both things that are broken, which it doesn't. The defence didn't let the Coyotes have any room tonight and, lo and behold, Pavelec comes out with a +.940 save percentage.

They both need fixing. The team will not improve if both Pavelec AND the defence don't improve.

2 things are wrong about this post, so let me correct them. 1, I didn't assume it would fix the defence. at all. No such assumption was made or declared. I simply said of 2 problems, the goaltender is the easiest to fix as its 1 player.

2nd thing wrong was you took 1 game and tried to use that as some sort of example where Pavelec can be good. A game where literally Winnipeg dominated the all living hell out of Phoenix, and the Coyotes had nothing. We owned them in every zone. To call this cherry picking would be an understatement. Unless you think we can hold teams to under 20 shots all the time? And totally kick their teeth in for 60 mins? Is that the plan to make Pavelec an NHL goaltender?

 

[tbcwpg]

2 things are wrong about this post, so let me correct them. 1, I didn't assume it would fix the defence. at all. No such assumption was made or declared. I simply said of 2 problems, the goaltender is the easiest to fix as its 1 player.

2nd thing wrong was you took 1 game and tried to use that as some sort of example where Pavelec can be good. A game where literally Winnipeg dominated the all living hell out of Phoenix, and the Coyotes had nothing. We owned them in every zone. To call this cherry picking would be an understatement. Unless you think we can hold teams to under 20 shots all the time? And totally kick their teeth in for 60 mins? Is that the plan to make Pavelec an NHL goaltender?

You said blaming the defence is excusing Pavelec. How can one not take from that that you think replacing him is the best way to improve the team? Sure, he's got plenty of flaws but he is not the problem on his own, and your comment that commenting on poor defensive play is some sort of absolution of Pavelec as a goalie shows where you really think on the topic. Goaltender is easiest to fix, but it's a pretty poor fix if the defence doesn't improve, unless you feel that losing games 3-2 instead of 4 or 5-2 is an improvement.

My point about tonight's game was to show that when both the goalie and the defence play well and do their jobs, that it makes both look better. Only someone looking for an argument, or someone unwilling to give the goaltender any shred of credit would assume that it was, again, absolving Pavelec of any wrongdoing or praising his virtues. The plan should be that Pavelec shows decent rebound control and that the defence don't both go behind the goal line and leave an open man in front, or that a centre covers the guy in he high slot, or that we don't have 5 guys collapsing to one side and leaving the far side open. Your constantly saying that Pavelec doesn't make the big saves to keep us in games, my question is the same as yours but also adding "Why does our defensive play put our goalie in the position to have to bail out his team so often?"

 

[White Out 403*]

There's really no need to discuss or debate my post further; it stands on its own merit. I was correcting your inaccurate statement that I said fixing the goaltending fixes the D. I never said that, case closed.

The other part really needs no further discussion. It was a game where he faced less than 20 shots and never really faced in any pressure; congrats to him for the win but this one single game means nothing compared to 4 years of data. You were the one who said "oh hey the D played well, and check it out pavelec got a 940 save %!". Again I'll repeat you chose to cherry pick 1 game and made the suggestion that if the Jets always played like this pavs would be lights out. Not me, you.

 

[BigZ65]

Can't we fix both? Wouldn't that produce even better results? Imagine having a D system and core that would allow a goalie to not be on top of their game at ALL times, and only needs the goalie to bail them out on occasion.

That would be my happy little world.

Yes it would.

If the the Jets D gave up 25-27 shots a game and Pavelec played consistently at .910 (ideally .915), we'd have a chance to be middle of the pack in our division/conference. That would require a substantial, yet reasonable improvement from both the skaters in front of Pavelec and Pavelec.

Problem is, I don't think Pavelec has given any indication that he can even play at that level while starting 65 games.

 

[tbcwpg]

There's really no need to discuss or debate my post further; it stands on its own merit. I was correcting your inaccurate statement that I said fixing the goaltending fixes the D. I never said that, case closed.

The other part really needs no further discussion. It was a game where he faced less than 20 shots and never really faced in any pressure; congrats to him for the win but this one single game means nothing compared to 4 years of data. You were the one who said "oh hey the D played well, and check it out pavelec got a 940 save %!". Again I'll repeat you chose to cherry pick 1 game and made the suggestion that if the Jets always played like this pavs would be lights out. Not me, you.

I think this game is an outlier, but I think his numbers improve if the guys in front of him play more like tonight and less like the last 40 games. I'm not calling him a great goalie, but goalies need help. Everyone who's anyone in the NHL world has said "he has to be better but he gets no help". I don't care which one gets fixed first, but I disagree that replacing Pavelec is the easiest fix here. Tight defensive play is actually relatively quick to fix and costs no assets. Both do need to be fixed.

We don't really disagree on the level of play of Pavelec. It's bad. I think the defence is more of a contributor than you seem to do, that's all. You get so passionate on the discussion of this guy, quick to point out his flaws but absent when he plays well. I think replacing him will have a positive impact, but not as positive as you would think.

 

[Inflict]

The article is criticizing Chevy as much as it is Pavelec and I think the author is wrong in some aspects. The author is attacking Chevy for the signing only based on hindsight and has missed several points as to how our GM came to the decision.

At the time it must have seemed like a good deal to the organization, even if the term was a little long. Pavelec was coming off a season where he was named team MVP and showed flashes of brilliance. Coupled with his previous stats the year before and his relatively young age (by goaltending standards), Pavelec had the opportunity to become a good goaltender in the league and a great signing for the organization. Obviously, that is no longer the case. It was a moderate risk that has, so far, failed.

This isn't a post defending Pavelec, but defending the logic behind the signing and how it doesn't speak to Chevy's incompetence.

 

[garret9]

The article is criticizing Chevy as much as it is Pavelec and I think the author is wrong in some aspects. The author is attacking Chevy for the signing only based on hindsight and has missed several points as to how our GM came to the decision.

At the time it must have seemed like a good deal to the organization, even if the term was a little long. Pavelec was coming off a season where he was named team MVP and showed flashes of brilliance. Coupled with his previous stats the year before and his relatively young age (by goaltending standards), Pavelec had the opportunity to become a good goaltender in the league and a great signing for the organization. Obviously, that is no longer the case. It was a moderate risk that has, so far, failed.

This isn't a post defending Pavelec, but defending the logic behind the signing and how it doesn't speak to Chevy's incompetence.

That's just wrong:
http://www.arcticicehockey.com/2012...-does-ondrej-pavelec-deserve-hint-not-4m-year

His comparables had him under 2 mil... so it did not seem like a good idea at the time to all

 

[GaryinPrague]

Just wait until Pavs leads the Czech team to a medal at the Olympics. He'll show all of you what a goalie can do with a half-decent defense.

this.

If he does great, ir greatly increases our chances of trading him, if we want

If he doesn't, doesnt matter, his value can't get any lower

 

[King Woodballs]

Just wait until Pavs leads the Czech team to a medal at the Olympics. He'll show all of you what a goalie can do with a half-decent defense.

oh man
I would love too see the reactions if that happens