Old Gretzky and adjusted stats

[daver]

I dont know? Why don't you ask the guy who I replied to in the first place?

Sorry, I saw your reply and thought you were just making a statement. I must have the other poster on ignore.

 

[daver]

But SV% has to do with shots that the goalie STOPS or doesn't stop. So whether your team defense sucks or is good wouldn't affect it that much? It's very comparable to ERA and baseball pitchers - it focuses more on the pitcher /goaltender ALONE.

The average goalie of today stops a lot of shots that the average goalie of the '80's wouldn't. (not putting down the goaltenders of the '80's because they would be BETTER if they played today with the advantages I mentioned before). So a Gretzky (or anyone from the 80's) would score less goals and get less assists as the goaltender's today would also be stopping more shots from team mates he passed to. How MUCH less is where the argument really heats up

Not really. Why wouldn't we presume he would show a level of relative dominance that was in the same ballpark as this dominance when he played?

 

[BehindTheTimes]

The average SV% of goalies during the decade of the 1980's was .877. The average SV% of the last 10 years (thru last year) was .913. The SV% of the league LEADERS in SV% for each of the seasons of the entire 1980's was LESS than the league average for the last 10 years. (except for one season where the leader's SV% was only equal to the league average of the last 10 seasons).

That's pretty WILD. Either the shooters of the modern era suck compared to the shooters of the 80's OR the average goaltender of the 80's sucks by comparison to the modern goaltender. I think it's much more feasible that the average goaltender of the 80's was not nearly as good, although it may be MAINLY because of modern equipment, better training, and more evolutionary techniques that aid the modern goalie.

I think goaltending has improved, obviously, but I think the equipment is equally responsible for the uptick. Goalies didn't look like the Michelin Man in the 80's. They wore gear for protection.

 

[VanIslander]

To be clear: Gretzky was a PRIME passer for nearly two decades: he led the league in assists a remarkable 16 times in 18 years.

His prime goal-scoring period? He led the NHL in goals for 5 years during my 6-year junior high and senior high years.

 

[Video Nasty]

You know you’re talking about the best player when people make every effort to downplay your accomplishments because they otherwise can’t wrap their head around the idea that maybe just maybe, that player would be five or six moves ahead of everyone else, regardless of era.

It’ll be interesting to see if the league ever returns to 6.5-8 GPG and see what the excuses are if no one challenges Gretzky’s marks then too.

 

[BraveCanadian]

I think goaltending has improved, obviously, but I think the equipment is equally responsible for the uptick. Goalies didn't look like the Michelin Man in the 80's. They wore gear for protection.

Goaltending gear enables them to play the way they do now for sure. Pads for landing the knees and cheaters covering up the holes that used to be the trade off for goalies of the past going down... but goaltenders are also being selected for size.. kind of like basketball centers now. They are huge compared to the past and between the equipment and their larger size, they stop more pucks just by being there. Boring.

 

[golfortennis]

Goaltending gear enables them to play the way they do now for sure. Pads for landing the knees and cheaters covering up the holes that used to be the trade off for goalies of the past going down... but goaltenders are also being selected for size.. kind of like basketball centers now. They are huge compared to the past and between the equipment and their larger size, they stop more pucks just by being there. Boring.

You also have the fact the pads don't get weighed down over the course of a game anymore. The pads the goalies had in the 80s would collect water from the ice and sweat. Could be close to 10 pounds heavier at the end of the game vs the start.

"Learn how to make a kick save" isn't just a funny line a commercial anymore...

 

[Pominville Knows]

In Gretzky's day, hooking, holding and hand slashing were considered acceptable tactics and were often let go by the refs. Even in the 80's, the obstruction was crazy compared to today. The skilled players of today don't know how good they have it compared to the days before the officials actually adhered to the rule book.

Well... They tried to obstruct him but my guess is he was stellar at avoiding them just as with their hits?

One of his shots he probably would have done away with in a later era was that weak but pinpoint slapshot from just inside the line. My feeling is that they would translate to assists, but maybe he could have found another Effective way of putting it in.
But my guess is based upon him exchanging a 25+ percent shooting average almost in a straight line down to 10. But sure, before Suter it was 16+ which Might be worth mentioning, although he did hit that mark again once as late as in 93-94.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

You also have the fact the pads don't get weighed down over the course of a game anymore. The pads the goalies had in the 80s would collect water from the ice and sweat. Could be close to 10 pounds heavier at the end of the game vs the start.

This is a huge part of the game that some people just don't get.

I played goalie when my team was in a pinch a few times. Those pads were HEAVY. The goalie stick was heavy. Penalties weren't called when the goalie was breathed upon.

Even with all of the things which made goal scoring easier, it still doesn't explain why The Great One won his scoring titles by such ridiculous margins. The idea that he wasn't a unique talent (along with Lemieux) is an argument that has no teeth. They were generational players in the real sense of the word-not the force fit that people use for players like Crosby and the like.

 

[The Panther]

But my guess is based upon him exchanging a 25+ percent shooting average almost in a straight line down to 10. But sure, before Suter it was 16+ which Might be worth mentioning, although he did hit that mark again once as late as in 93-94.

I believe the decline in Gretzky's shooting percentage is more to do with shot selection and where the shots were coming from than his inability to beat goalies at a greater rate than prior. His shooting percentage in 1990-91 was better than in 1979-80. And 1993-94 was better than 1985-86 (the 215 point season). Gretzky simply became more of a perimeter player after his first season in L.A. (or thereabouts, though he had started trending that way even earlier in Edmonton).

Around 1981-1986, Gretzky would head to the front of the net more, and often carry the puck there. After about 1990 he rarely did that. When most of your shots are from outside, your shooting percentage drops a lot.

As to why he did so, I think it was largely self-preservation. As his career went on, and as he began to experience serious injuries for the first time, he became less willing to take chances near the net.

 

[Pominville Knows]

I believe the decline in Gretzky's shooting percentage is more to do with shot selection and where the shots were coming from than his inability to beat goalies at a greater rate than prior. His shooting percentage in 1990-91 was better than in 1979-80. And 1993-94 was better than 1985-86 (the 215 point season). Gretzky simply became more of a perimeter player after his first season in L.A. (or thereabouts, though he had started trending that way even earlier in Edmonton).

Around 1981-1986, Gretzky would head to the front of the net more, and often carry the puck there. After about 1990 he rarely did that. When most of your shots are from outside, your shooting percentage drops a lot.

As to why he did so, I think it was largely self-preservation. As his career went on, and as he began to experience serious injuries for the first time, he became less willing to take chances near the net.

Perimeter player you say, eh? So what about that slap shot from just inside the line then? That can't be perimeter area in a tighter league? Not to mention the never goalies/pads being there.

 

[The Panther]

Perimeter player you say, eh? So what about that slap shot from just inside the line then? That can't be perimeter area in a tighter league? Not to mention the never goalies/pads being there.

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying.