Oilers now 13-12-1: THE THREAD THAT'S FUN FOR EVERYONE

Status
Not open for further replies.

HugginThePost

Flames Suck
Sponsor
Dec 28, 2006
3,978
3,502
Back to the Sweat Box
What I find truly fascinating is that a whole slew of Oiler fans can look at their team and come to the conclusion that it’s the goalie coach that is responsible for this travesty.

Not the horrific defense. Not the lack of scoring. Not the abysmal PK. Not the below average PP. Not the bad coaching decisions.

Nope! It’s Dustin f***ing Schwartz. The goalie coach.
 

PainForShane

formerly surfshop
Dec 24, 2019
2,846
3,283
Congratulations on being unbearably condescending and blindly cosigning weak narratives without providing any reasonable insights whatsoever. As someone who doesn't watch any Oilers games, you sure seem adamant that the hollow arguments of his I've been criticizing are indisputably true. You sure know how to dance around questions without answering them. (Don't bother replying btw, we're done here)

Bro, my entire point was that you completely misunderstood what he was saying. And then you tripled and / or even quadrupled down on your misunderstanding. And now it looks like you've completely misunderstood the conversation you and I are having also -- at no point have I ever entered an argument about whether McD improved his linemates (or not) or "cosign (the) weak narrative" / like you just claimed.

Put another way, I have not even come close to arguing for or against whether McD improved his linemates, not a single time, in our entire convo. So how can I be adamant about any of that.

This inability to understand things is no one's problem but your own. You have over two thousand posts, by now I'd argue it's worth spending the extra 5-10 seconds to actually understand another person's ideas before responding, that way you don't accuse people of things that are completely untrue, like you just did above.

***

As as aside, I can see that maybe I came across as being condescending, perhaps even unbearably so. That said, not many people completely ignore the point of the person they're talking to or pretend it's something else entirely, let alone accuse someone of adamantly supporting a particular side of an argument they never entered.

Probably not the best excuse for being borderline condescending (or maybe more than that), but all of us have seen worse in response to less. *shrug*
 

Windy River

Registered User
Jan 31, 2013
1,643
669
And you literally ignored the first post I replied to where he verbatim said he does nothing to improve the players around him. I replied saying a plethora of his linemates have career years as his teammate. He replied by trying to minimize his contributions by writing them off as measly neutral zone assists. I decided it wasn't worthwhile to go back and forth over that hyperbolic statement and didn't respond to that argument. I then reaffirmed the hole in his logic due to him admitting their numbers regress when they don't play with him (because if players perform better with you than they do without you, you are likely the reason their production has improved).

You can argue that his teammates only score more thanks to "cheap neutral zone assists" if you want (you'd be wrong btw; especially considering you just admitted you don't even watch many Oilers games) but I'm not gonna bother taking that seriously because I've actually watched him do it on a night to night basis.

Going from, "he does nothing to improve his teammates" to "yeah they produce more, but that doesn't count because of *insert hyperbolic statement here*" is moving the goalposts. What does "helping a teammate improve" even mean if helping them put up career years doesn't count? If creating space and giving your teammates more access to opportunities to score isn't helping them improve (because that's what he does), what is? Is he supposed to give them workout plans? Is he supposed to magically transfer his skills over to them? Should he pick up coaching during the offseason?
Somehow the whole concept of ‘improving’ is going completely over your head. Putting up more points may be a measure of improvement - but you have to consider the context, especially if that is your sole measure of a players value. By your logic pretty much every player ‘improves’ when they are playing on the powerplay. Are they actually suddebly playing better when on the pp? Or are they just picking up more points/min because it is an advantageous scoring situation?

Actual improvement is measured by how a players performance in varying situations improves over time. There are very skilled leaders throughout the NHL that have massive impacts on the players around them, helping to build and develop their games, eventually leading to that proverbial cup winning team ‘built around player X’. For that to happen it is contigent that player X is able to have a lasting impact on teammates that improves their game even when player X is not on ice. That is not McDavid.

Again - everyones game will “improve” while on ice with McD. They are not improving as players however. McDavid, for reasons already stated, is unfortunately not the type of leading player that teams are able to build around.
 

SeanMoneyHands

Registered User
Apr 18, 2019
15,275
14,615
FB_IMG_1699668547012.jpg
 
Aug 3, 2021
1,492
3,612
What I find truly fascinating is that a whole slew of Oiler fans can look at their team and come to the conclusion that it’s the goalie coach that is responsible for this travesty.

Not the horrific defense. Not the lack of scoring. Not the abysmal PK. Not the below average PP. Not the bad coaching decisions.

Nope! It’s Dustin f***ing Schwartz. The goalie coach.
At least the goalie coach excuse is fresh. They usually blame the league or Bettman directly.

“The league is against us!” (the same league that let them get 1st overall after 1st overall after 1st overall after 1st overall)
 

CNeufeld

Registered User
Feb 5, 2009
85
41
I am not the GM, Holloway + pick maybe.
Tanev makes 4.5M. Holloway makes 925k. Oilers have $21k in salary room. And he’s useless.

That’s the issue the oilers have. They’ve got little to dangle in front of other teams. And no room to eat any contract coming back. But lots of teams have players the Oilers would want.

Worst start to a season in my career YET…
 
  • Like
Reactions: nonzerochance

Windy River

Registered User
Jan 31, 2013
1,643
669
What do you even mean by improve if putting the puck in the net more often doesn't count? Should he become their personal trainer or coach or something?
What I mean by improve is influencing the player, through any number of means, to better apply themselves and become a better hockey player in their own right.

Have you played hockey? I don’t mean this in a ‘you cant understand because you havent..’ type of way. But as an example Ive played at some crap levels of hockey, but nevertheless I have played alongside some quality (lower level college type) players. Some guys tear up the ice like none other. There are a few guys that can mimic it, and probably benefit from them. For me and alot of others though, we benefited alot more from the guys that manage to ‘slow the game down’, lead by examples, tips, encouragement. I’m suggesting that McD, as crazy as it sounds, operates at a level where even in the NHL most guys simply cannot mimic it, it’s totally out of reach. It’s not his fault, it just is what it is.

Think about some occupation or education youve had, did ‘the best’ people amongst your acquaintances necessarily provide the most help in advancing your career/education? Maybe, but probably not. Its about being able to connect and making the skillset accessible to others. Sure, if you do a project with one of those star performers it will likely have good/great results- but that doesnt mean you benefited from it more than you would working with anybody else. McDavid is a brilliant player- but there’s more than enough evidence that his talents do NOT elevate his team in the longer term the way weve seen other ‘elite talents’ like Crosby, Kucherov, Kopitar and perhaps a handful of others impact their teams and lead them to ongoing success.
 

HugginThePost

Flames Suck
Sponsor
Dec 28, 2006
3,978
3,502
Back to the Sweat Box
Bro, my entire point was that you completely misunderstood what he was saying. And then you tripled and / or even quadrupled down on your misunderstanding. And now it looks like you've completely misunderstood the conversation you and I are having also -- at no point have I ever entered an argument about whether McD improved his linemates (or not) or "cosign (the) weak narrative" / like you just claimed.

Put another way, I have not even come close to arguing for or against whether McD improved his linemates, not a single time, in our entire convo. So how can I be adamant about any of that.

This inability to understand things is no one's problem but your own. You have over two thousand posts, by now I'd argue it's worth spending the extra 5-10 seconds to actually understand another person's ideas before responding, that way you don't accuse people of things that are completely untrue, like you just did above.

***

As as aside, I can see that maybe I came across as being condescending, perhaps even unbearably so. That said, not many people completely ignore the point of the person they're talking to or pretend it's something else entirely, let alone accuse someone of adamantly supporting a particular side of an argument they never entered.

Probably not the best excuse for being borderline condescending (or maybe more than that), but all of us have seen worse in response to less. *shrug*

Somehow the whole concept of ‘improving’ is going completely over your head. Putting up more points may be a measure of improvement - but you have to consider the context, especially if that is your sole measure of a players value. By your logic pretty much every player ‘improves’ when they are playing on the powerplay. Are they actually suddebly playing better when on the pp? Or are they just picking up more points/min because it is an advantageous scoring situation?

Actual improvement is measured by how a players performance in varying situations improves over time. There are very skilled leaders throughout the NHL that have massive impacts on the players around them, helping to build and develop their games, eventually leading to that proverbial cup winning team ‘built around player X’. For that to happen it is contigent that player X is able to have a lasting impact on teammates that improves their game even when player X is not on ice. That is not McDavid.

Again - everyones game will “improve” while on ice with McD. They are not improving as players however. McDavid, for reasons already stated, is unfortunately not the type of leading player that teams are able to build around.

Yo, get a room you two……..
 
  • Haha
Reactions: PainForShane

Video Nasty

Registered User
Mar 12, 2017
5,655
9,873
No no, he IS the whole team, you can even see Draisaitl is suffering without a healthy McDavid.

McDavid would likely be sitting out if he didn’t like chasing personal accolades

What a silly comment. What personal accolades is he winning by playing at this level right now?

He was actually fractions of a point from being ahead of Bossy for 3rd in all-time in PPG before he came back early from the injury.

If what you said was true (even then, not really because it’s a huge stretch and a poor assumption to make), he would have preserved his career PPG for the meantime, and waited until he was 100% and everyone else in the league played more games (like Crosby all those times).

Talk about damned if you do, damned if you don’t. The guy could sit and listen to crumbs shouting from their couches about how he has no heart, or return with an injury because he’s still only 26 years old and hasn’t completely learned that his boss and company doesn’t really care about him, so he has that loyalty and blind character most of us have at that point in life and perhaps they also begged him to, because they know just how incompetent they are, and he still gets shit on.
 
Last edited:

WhataKnight

The KnightMan Cometh!
Jan 6, 2023
1,043
1,158
This is exactly the same team that dominated last year. It's only a question of time before they get back on top.

To all the haters who only show up now that they are on a ten games skid, enjoy it while it lasts.
While I mean no disrespect to your support; something needed changed well before now, and that same team that dominated last year hit a brick wall when it came to 5-on-5 in the PO’s.

This roster - as offensively potent when healthy as it is - going on a steamer would likely still have trouble scoring their way over deeper teams. Not knocking your zeal, but I think the crowdsourced eye test is accurate when all but shouting that something’s gotta give.
 

Fatass

Registered User
Apr 17, 2017
23,884
15,556
As a fsn who hated the Oilers this is fun go watch. The club should trade McDavidof Draisatle
 

SeanMoneyHands

Registered User
Apr 18, 2019
15,275
14,615
Worst start to a season in my career YET…

It’s only going to get worse for Edmonton before it gets better. How many more days is Holland going to sit and do nothing? Putting Campbell on waivers was one, he should have already made his 2nd move by now.
 

MCR74

Registered User
Nov 11, 2022
3,913
4,704
What I find truly fascinating is that a whole slew of Oiler fans can look at their team and come to the conclusion that it’s the goalie coach that is responsible for this travesty.

Not the horrific defense. Not the lack of scoring. Not the abysmal PK. Not the below average PP. Not the bad coaching decisions.

Nope! It’s Dustin f***ing Schwartz. The goalie coach.

I wonder if the bravado will be toned down next summer.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: CantHaveTkachev

Nathaniel Skywalker

DIG IN!!! RiGHT NOW!!!
Oct 18, 2013
14,241
5,897
What a silly comment. What personal accolades is he winning by playing at this level right now?

He was actually fractions of a point from being ahead of Bossy for 3rd in all-time in PPG before he came back early from the injury.

If what you said was true (even then, not really because it’s a huge stretch and a poor assumption to make), he would have preserved his career PPG for the meantime, and waited until he was 100% and everyone else in the league played more games (like Crosby all those times).

Talk about damned if you do, damned if you don’t. The guy could sit and listen to crumbs shouting from their couches about how he has no heart, or return with an injury because he’s still only 26 years old and hasn’t completely learned that his boss and company doesn’t really care about him, so he has that loyalty and blind character most of us have at that point in life and perhaps they also begged him to, because they know just how incompetent they are, and he still gets shit on.
Not even top 100 in scoring at age 26-27. That's pretty horrid. Crosby at 27 finished third in scoring and you called it putrid. Can't wait for your synopsis of the season when it's over
 
  • Like
Reactions: sanscosm

blundluntman

Registered User
Jul 30, 2016
3,151
3,436
Somehow the whole concept of ‘improving’ is going completely over your head. Putting up more points may be a measure of improvement - but you have to consider the context, especially if that is your sole measure of a players value. By your logic pretty much every player ‘improves’ when they are playing on the powerplay. Are they actually suddebly playing better when on the pp? Or are they just picking up more points/min because it is an advantageous scoring situation?

Actual improvement is measured by how a players performance in varying situations improves over time. There are very skilled leaders throughout the NHL that have massive impacts on the players around them, helping to build and develop their games, eventually leading to that proverbial cup winning team ‘built around player X’. For that to happen it is contigent that player X is able to have a lasting impact on teammates that improves their game even when player X is not on ice. That is not McDavid.

Again - everyones game will “improve” while on ice with McD. They are not improving as players however. McDavid, for reasons already stated, is unfortunately not the type of leading player that teams are able to build around.
This is what I meant when I said loose nit narratives earlier in this thread. I obviously agree that leaders need to be able to motivate and inspire their teammates to uphold a certain standard of play (something McDavid has actually been documented of doing by coaches and teammates as far back as his junior years btw) but outside of those things, what other impact is it they're supposed to have on their teammates? Unless there's proof, I don't believe it's Crosby alone that is teaching players how to develop their games, more than likely, the coaches who have told these leaders to develop their games are the same ones telling these other teammates to do the same. You see this with Yzerman and Scotty Bowman. His entire MO was to create teams that backchecked and played on both sides of the ice. But after this strategy worked, it was easy to look back in hindsight and say Yzerman was the sole reason his teammates played better. It's simply not true. I've seen this argument multiple times and imo it always gets extremely overblown. Yes leaders motivate and inspire their teammates with their play, but they aren't literally doing the coach's job like you suggest, that is taking things too far. This situation does't work as a parallel to the workplace because those skillsets that can be transferred to other coworkers are mental and depend on knowledge and work ethic, not talent. The skillsets that can be shared have already been taught.

What I mean by improve is influencing the player, through any number of means, to better apply themselves and become a better hockey player in their own right.

Have you played hockey? I don’t mean this in a ‘you cant understand because you havent..’ type of way. But as an example Ive played at some crap levels of hockey, but nevertheless I have played alongside some quality (lower level college type) players. Some guys tear up the ice like none other. There are a few guys that can mimic it, and probably benefit from them. For me and alot of others though, we benefited alot more from the guys that manage to ‘slow the game down’, lead by examples, tips, encouragement. I’m suggesting that McD, as crazy as it sounds, operates at a level where even in the NHL most guys simply cannot mimic it, it’s totally out of reach. It’s not his fault, it just is what it is.

Think about some occupation or education youve had, did ‘the best’ people amongst your acquaintances necessarily provide the most help in advancing your career/education? Maybe, but probably not. Its about being able to connect and making the skillset accessible to others. Sure, if you do a project with one of those star performers it will likely have good/great results- but that doesnt mean you benefited from it more than you would working with anybody else. McDavid is a brilliant player- but there’s more than enough evidence that his talents do NOT elevate his team in the longer term the way weve seen other ‘elite talents’ like Crosby, Kucherov, Kopitar and perhaps a handful of others impact their teams and lead them to ongoing success.
You bring this up but when stories of McDavid literally drawing plays on the whiteboard for his teammates, giving them words of encouragement, leading by example and being commended by his coaches for exhibiting literally these exact same qualities come up, people write them off. There was a thread at the beginning of the season about McDavid asking his teammates to come earlier to training camp to get a head start, and he was clowned because of it. There are quotes of his teammates and coaches admitting he helps motivate/encourage his teammates and leads by example. Where is the proof of players like Crosby, Kucherov (who btw, I've never heard used as an example for leadership) and Kopitar impacting their teammates in ways that McDavid hasn't been documented to do? I'll even give you some links to articles that confirm McDavid's done this. Like I said, you can motivate and inspire your teammates to be better players, but developing players is not what team leaders do (as pretty and mythologoical as this sounds), it's what the coaches do. Imo you're simply crediting the team captain for doing this because he's the figurehead of the team.



Edit: and like clockwork, the mute Crosby fanboy Sanscosm proves my point
 
Last edited:
  • Wow
Reactions: sanscosm

Ray Mercer

Registered User
Oct 3, 2018
340
337
Tough to see a Canadian team with those superstars play like bums. Nugent Hopkins and Kane should be enough of a supportive offensive cast. They need to bring in a new defensive minded coach to try to implement a new system.
 

Video Nasty

Registered User
Mar 12, 2017
5,655
9,873
Not even top 100 in scoring at age 26-27. That's pretty horrid. Crosby at 27 finished third in scoring and you called it putrid. Can't wait for your synopsis of the season when it's over

I’m giving it in real time and will be happy to continue to give an honest synopsis when I see the final draft 6-7 months from now.

The biggest difference between you and I is that I can label what I’m seeing a dozen games in, injury or not, a disappointment thus far, while you’ve spent close to a decade arguing otherwise in regards to Crosby.

I’m afraid there’s not going to be a gotcha moment for you to climax to.
 

Seanaconda

Registered User
May 6, 2016
9,701
3,442
At least the goalie coach excuse is fresh. They usually blame the league or Bettman directly.

“The league is against us!” (the same league that let them get 1st overall after 1st overall after 1st overall after 1st overall)
I think that's not normally just edmonton fans

but normally anti all of canada conspiracy theorists
 

Nathaniel Skywalker

DIG IN!!! RiGHT NOW!!!
Oct 18, 2013
14,241
5,897
I’m giving it in real time and will be happy to continue to give an honest synopsis when I see the final draft 6-7 months from now.

The biggest difference between you and I is that I can label what I’m seeing a dozen games in, injury or not, a disappointment thus far, while you’ve spent close to a decade arguing otherwise in regards to Crosby.

I’m afraid there’s not going to be a gotcha moment for you to climax to.
Considering the putrid start mcdavids having. Him finishing third would be good actually.

Considering the putrid start mcdavids having. Him finishing third would be good actually.
For the time being he can continue looking up at a 36 year old crosby in the scoring charts
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad