Oilers hire Stan Bowman as GM & EVP of Hockey Ops

[Crazy Cizikas]

Not if you are trying to respect the wishes of the victim.

That’s not true at all.

 

[TheNumber4]

That’s not true at all.

It is true. Not all victims want this to be a criminal trial for various reasons. That should be respected. IF the victim does want to bring this to the police, that should be supported, but that is his choice and his alone.

Also, organizations HR dept guidelines don’t call for reporting allegations of sexual abuse to the police as standard operating procedure. And keep in mind, these were just allegations at the point. An organizations recourse in these situations is to suspend, terminate, and investigate. Not open a police investigation.

 

[Crazy Cizikas]

It is true. Not all victims want this to be a criminal trial for various reasons. That should be respected. IF the victim does want to bring this to the police, that should be supported, but that is his choice and his alone.

Also, organizations HR dept guidelines don’t call for reporting allegations of sexual abuse to the police as standard operating procedure. And keep in mind, these were just allegations at the point. An organizations recourse in these situations is to suspend, terminate, and investigate. Not open a police investigation.

You can report a crime regardless of the victim’s wishes. Parents do it all the time when their daughters are statutorily raped by their older boyfriends. If you know of a crime, report it.

 

[North Cole]

McDung wasn’t reinstated probably because the report indicates he was prime culprit when it comes to managerial failure. Again, confirming what Bowman said and how he characterized the meeting.

Those who were reinstated, or those who avoided any culpability whatsoever like Chevyldayoff were deemed to be less culpable than McDung. It wasn’t a PR campaign that got Chevy off the hook, nor Queenville, nor others as you stated. It was the facts of the case.

The statements Bowman made went public in the Report. Are public in pressers. Can easily be called out by anyone in the know, after the fact. It doesn’t need to have had happened at the time of the report. It could have happened any time after and even now can still be denied by those involved. No denials have come out.

In fact, again, Bowman’s statements have been confirmed by the actions of McDung. What Bowman said McDung said and would do, he did exactly that.

Reinstatement comes from meeting directly with Bettman. He hasn't been reinstated because he hasn't met with bettman. Unless you have something showing he did and got denied? Otherwise we can assume he's not interested in working in the NHL, otherwise he would be taking steps to have that meeting and garner enough receipts to pass the meeting.

"In the know". In order to be in the know they would have to remember. You cannot use the defense of I don't know anything about the meeting really, and then turn around and give detailed refutations about something someone alleged at the meeting you hardly remember. Lol.

Yes, confirmed by the actions of McDung. 10 years after the actions took place. It's remarkable how McDung dealt with it after the cup win, and then 10 years later Stan clearly remembers McDung saying he would deal with it, but virtually nothing else. He doesn't remember the 19 minute phone call he had later the same day with Gary where Gary alleges Stan said they would handle it. Not that McDung would handle it. It's not at all possible that Stan would have been interviewed by the HR director after and known at that point McDung reported it, and is now super imposing that into the meeting he can't remember.

 

[wetcoast]

Why would he correct the record? He's never coming back, he clearly doesn't care. The others are defending their actions because they have a vested interest in working in the NHL again, that's not altruistic. His weak defense of his actions is "my boss told me he would handle it" and "I should have done more". Just burying their heads in the sand, and then going on to fly to some places and meet some people lmao.

It's not confirmed by that at all. No one else recalls that even be said per the report. He's looking back on an incident 10 years ago which he seems to remember very little except the get out of jail free card of "my boss said he would do something".

How much do you recall exactly what you were doing 10 years ago?

Last week?

This morning?

Life isn't like television drama shows here.

 

[TheNumber4]

You can report a crime regardless of the victim’s wishes. Parents do it all the time when their daughters are statutorily raped by their older boyfriends. If you know of a crime, report it.

You are talking in a general sense, like if you see a burglar accross the street, call it in. And in the case of your example, guardianship over a minor.

In this situation and in situations specifically about workplace sexual abuse allegations. Key word, allegations. You allow the victim to decide for himself whether he wants to press criminal charges or not. The organization doesn’t decide, nor should they, for good reason. The information the Hawks were given was an allegation at that point, even if they wanted to press charges they couldn’t even. The hawks weren’t the victim here. They have no first hand account of what happened. They only know of an allegation. The first hand account can only come from the victim and thus the choice to press charges or not can only come from the victim.

 

[Crazy Cizikas]

You are talking in a general sense, like if you see a burglar accross the street, call it in.

In this situation and in situations specifically about workplace sexual abuse allegations. Key word, allegations. You allow the victim to decide for himself whether he wants to press criminal charges or not. The organization doesn’t decide, nor should they, for good reason. The information the Hawks were given was an allegation at that point, even if they wanted to press charges they couldn’t even. The hawks weren’t the victim here. They have no first hand account of what happened. They only know of an allegation. The first hand account can only come from the victim and thus the choice to press charges or not can only come from the victim.

I’m not talking about pressing charges. I’m talking about reporting it to the police. Let he police investigate it rather than the team (who has its own self-interest).

 

[njdevils1982]

Oh spare me the condescending bullshit, please. No one is claiming to be a pillar of f***ing anything, nor did I ask if you apologize for anything. I don't care. You are entitled to your opinions, even if I think they are wrong. I get to share my perspective on the situation, and doing so doesn't mean I'm falsely outraged or that I think I'm better than anyone else.

terrific post

 

[JPT]

How much do you recall exactly what you were doing 10 years ago?

Last week?

This morning?

Life isn't like television drama shows here.

Which is why an investigation needed to happen at the time instead of over a decade later.

 

[TheNumber4]

I’m not talking about pressing charges. I’m talking about reporting it to the police. Let he police investigate it rather than the team (who has its own self-interest).

An investigation should have been started by the Hawks. As per their own PR policy they failed to conduct one and has admitted to this negligent mistake.

A police investigation however is not part of that policy or any others. Because, again, for good reason the choice of pressing charges is up to the victim. And asking the police to investigate is pressing charges.

 

[JPT]

terrific post

Lol thanks. I get tired of the people who want to act like wanting people to treat each other with compassion instead of defaulting to self-interest somehow makes a person a smug moral crusader. Just don't victimize people, and if you're in a position to punish and/or prevent this kind of thing you have a moral obligation to do so. It's a simple position, as is thinking the penalty for this kind of failure should be harsh.

 

[Three On Zero]

You can report a crime regardless of the victim’s wishes. Parents do it all the time when their daughters are statutorily raped by their older boyfriends. If you know of a crime, report it.

Some are legally required to do so, that’s why people are warned prior to having discussion about potential crimes or sexual abuse allegations (certain professions such as social work).

On the flip side if someone was sexually abused or assaulted on an industrial work site, the employer is not obligated to inform the authorities. It would be grounds for dismissal though.

In a situation like Bowman’s, we will never know why he didn’t pursue this issue further but he had no obligation do so other than doing the right thing.

 

[Crazy Cizikas]

An investigation should have been started by the Hawks. As per their own PR policy they failed to conduct one and has admitted to this negligent mistake.

A police investigation however is not part of that policy or any others. Because, again, for good reason the choice of pressing charges is up to the victim. And asking the police to investigate is pressing charges.

The hawks could could conduct their own internal investigation for the purpose of deciding what to do about their employee. They should not conduct a criminal investigation for the purpose of pressing charges; that should be done by the DA and police.

Some are legally required to do so, that’s why people are warned prior to having discussion about potential crimes or sexual abuse allegations (certain professions such as social work).

On the flip side if someone was sexually abused or assaulted on an industrial work site, the employer is not obligated to inform the authorities. It would be grounds for dismissal though

Right. He wasn’t legally obligated to report anything. He also want legally prohibited from reporting anything. The decision not to report was entirely his own decision. He made his decision and it resulted in Aldrich being free to rape a child.

 

[North Cole]

How much do you recall exactly what you were doing 10 years ago?

Last week?

This morning?

Life isn't like television drama shows here.

True, I don't remember what I had for lunch 10 years ago. I do remember getting hit in the head with a hammer 16 years ago by accident. I remember someone going through my office because the coworker he was banging had some stuff missing and he thought I was hiding it. I remember reporting him to his boss and the heated conversation we had. I remember someone reporting a manager for trying to pay them for sex...

I guess if you equate a meeting with most of the senior managers in the middle of your first ever cup run, about a sexual assault in your workplace, to....eating lunch, or driving to work, I could see how you'd forget. Weird to work in a place where that's so trivial though.

 

[Three On Zero]

An investigation should have been started by the Hawks. As per their own PR policy they failed to conduct one and has admitted to this negligent mistake.

A police investigation however is not part of that policy or any others. Because, again, for good reason the choice of pressing charges is up to the victim. And asking the police to investigate is pressing charges.

False, criminal investigations do not mean charges have been laid. Investigations are just simply that, an investigation.

Right. He wasn’t legally obligated to report anything. He also want legally prohibited from reporting anything. The decision not to report was entirely his own decision. He made his decision and it resulted in Aldrich being free to rape a child.

Correct.


My wife has a masters in Social Work, I get to hear tidbits of horror stories from what she is allowed to legally share. This is how I know Kane getting custody of his daughter over his ex wife is really meaningless as the father getting custody isnt that uncommon anymore.

 

[mightbeabird]

Oh spare me the condescending bullshit, please. No one is claiming to be a pillar of f***ing anything, nor did I ask if you apologize for anything. I don't care. You are entitled to your opinions, even if I think they are wrong. I get to share my perspective on the situation, and doing so doesn't mean I'm falsely outraged or that I think I'm better than anyone else.

Just wanted to quote this for its awesomeness.

At this point the Oilers should just go full heel and sign the gangbang guys to contracts too. Hockey as a sport, and the NHL itself, does not seem to care if you cause harm to other people as long as you apologize for covering it up first.

 

[TheNumber4]

The hawks could could conduct their own internal investigation for the purpose of deciding what to do about their employee. They should not conduct a criminal investigation for the purpose of pressing charges; that should be done by the DA and police.


Right. He wasn’t legally obligated to report anything. He also want legally prohibited from reporting anything. The decision not to report was entirely his own decision. He made his decision and it resulted in Aldrich being free to rape a child.

The hawks could could conduct their own internal investigation for the purpose of deciding what to do about their employee. They should not conduct a criminal investigation for the purpose of pressing charges; that should be done by the DA and police.


Right. He wasn’t legally obligated to report anything. He also want legally prohibited from reporting anything. The decision not to report was entirely his own decision. He made his decision and it resulted in Aldrich being free to rape a child.

They should not conduct a police investigation cause yes, they can’t, they aren’t the police. But also, they shouldn’t request a police investigation because that is the choice of the victim and not the standard operating procedure of any HR dept.

He wasn’t not only legally obligated to open a police investigation, he also shouldn’t have to respect the wishes of the victim and to follow his own company’s and all company’s HR policies. He followed the word of his boss that he would handled it then assumed the HR dept would handle properly with an investigation. That’s what he did wrong here. Not opening a police investigation is NOT what Bowman did wrong here. And that would be the opinion of mine, the independent 3rd party investigation, the NHL’s investigation, the opinion of Kennedy, and also probably Kyle Beach himself. Sorry but you are wrong here on multiple levels on factual level.

 

[JianYang]

Let's just push the off ice issue aside for a second.

I think Stan bowman's transactional resume has its fair share of headscratching moves.

He's a questionable hiring just purely from a hockey perspective and then you add the other baggage on top of it.... I don't quite get it.

Did they just look at his Stanley cups and stop digging right there?

 

[Crazy Cizikas]

They should not conduct a police investigation cause yes, they can’t, they aren’t the police. But also, they shouldn’t request a police investigation because that is the choice of the victim and not the standard operating procedure of any HR dept.

He wasn’t not only legally obligated to open a police investigation, he also shouldn’t have to respect the wishes of the victim and to follow his own company’s and all company’s HR policies. He followed the word of his boss that he would handled it then assumed the HR dept would handle properly with an investigation. That’s what he did wrong here. Not opening a police investigation is NOT what Bowman did wrong here. And that would be the opinion of mine, the independent 3rd party investigation, the NHL’s investigation, the opinion of Kennedy, and also probably Kyle Beach himself. Sorry but you are wrong here on multiple levels on factual level.

All I’m saying is that if you believe a crime may have been committed, you can tell the police and let them investigate. You don’t need permission from the victim, your boss, the AGM, the pope, or anyone. I’m not wrong about that.

 

[PaulD]

I don’t understand why these teams just keep recycling the same coaches/ staff/ GMs over and over again. Hockey old boys network really needs to go.

It's called experience, and in this case significant record if success and championships.
Not really that difficult to understand.

 

[TheNumber4]

I’m not talking about pressing charges. I’m talking about reporting it to the police. Let he police investigate it rather than the team (who has its own self-interest).

Sorry no. That would take the victims ability away to decide how he wants this handled. Reporting to the police, makes
it public, something victims may or may not want.

I’m not opposed to a police investigation, I’m just telling you, that’s the victims decision and his alone. HR policies world wide work in this way, probably for that very reason.

All I’m saying is that if you believe a crime may have been committed, you can tell the police and let them investigate. You don’t need permission from the victim, your boss, the AGM, the pope, or anyone. I’m not wrong about that.

If you are part of an organizaiton with policies and understand why you wouldn’t take that decision away from the victim, you wouldn’t report to the police. Not reporting to the police was not the mistake that happened here.

 

[wetcoast]

True, I don't remember what I had for lunch 10 years ago. I do remember getting hit in the head with a hammer 16 years ago by accident. I remember someone going through my office because the coworker he was banging had some stuff missing and he thought I was hiding it. I remember reporting him to his boss and the heated conversation we had. I remember someone reporting a manager for trying to pay them for sex...

I guess if you equate a meeting with most of the senior managers in the middle of your first ever cup run, about a sexual assault in your workplace, to....eating lunch, or driving to work, I could see how you'd forget. Weird to work in a place where that's so trivial though.

I think that you are glossing over that this didn't happen directly to Bowman and it was an allegation at the time and some of the timeline suggests that someone else was taking care of it, nothing suggests that it was a totally fleshed out conversation and everyone wanted to avoid it which is what a lot of people do.


It's not like Bowman saw or witnessed what occured to Beach he heard something that's a huge area for variance there.

 

[Crazy Cizikas]

Sorry no. That would take the victims ability away to decide how he wants this handled. Reporting to the police, makes
it public, something victims may or may not want.

I’m not opposed to a police investigation, I’m just telling you, that’s the victims decision and his alone. HR policies world wide work in this way, probably for that very reason.


If you are part of an organizaiton with policies and understand why you wouldn’t take that decision away from the victim, you wouldn’t report to the police. Not reporting to the police was not the mistake that happened here.

I’m starting to get the feeling that you’re not an attorney.

Edit. Just to say that corporate HR or internal policies have no legal value regarding criminal proceedings.

 

[TheNumber4]

I’m starting to get the feeling that you’re not an attorney.

Edit. Just to say that corporate HR or internal policies have no legal value regarding criminal proceedings.

I’m not an attorney. But Jenner and Block the firm hired to investigate wrongdoing in this matter, did not note a lack of police investigation as part of that wrong doing or even a concern. Cause it wasn’t one.

 

[Crazy Cizikas]

I’m not an attorney. But Jenner and Block the firm hired to investigate wrongdoing in this matter, did not note a lack of police investigation as part of that wrong doing or even a concern. Cause it wasn’t one.

I’m not saying that Bowman committed a crime. I’m just saying that he wasn’t prohibited from reporting one.