Confirmed with Link: Oilers Do Not Match Broberg ($4.58M X2) & Holloway ($2.29M x 2) Offer Sheets | Oilers acquire STL 3rd '28 & Paul Fischer for Futures

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What Would You Do?


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Behind Enemy Lines

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Feb 19, 2003
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And Jackson did his job.

He made the Oilers better during the off season.


You still have yet to bring up any points about how they were unaware.
I think that reports they were 'surprised' by the offer sheets might suggest they were unaware.

At least Bowman said he was surprised.

“No, I think things are fine,” Bowman told The Athletic this past week. “I’ve known Doug a long time. He’s a very bright guy, a good person. I think sometimes more is made out of that.

“He was trying to do what he could to make his team better. Once you get past the surprise of it, and you then roll your sleeves up and get to work on what you want to do, I don’t think there’s any value in holding grudges. I mean, what good is going to come out of that?
 

FlameChampion

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Jul 13, 2011
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I definitely agree that Broberg was the special one. At the very least he could have been the trade chip we used to fill that 2RD this summer. Broberg was absolutely a blue chip trade piece that we lost for scraps.

Holloway was good but not great. 1st rounders go this way sometimes. He was trending well

But if you look at it like Broberg returned a 2nd + 3rd and a prospect, then the value isn’t that far off. I don’t know what his value was but I doubt it was much higher than that. And once Theres rumours of a 4.6m cap hit, he probably has no trade value.
 
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FlameChampion

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I think that reports they were 'surprised' by the offer sheets might suggest they were unaware.

At least Bowman said he was surprised.

“No, I think things are fine,” Bowman told The Athletic this past week. “I’ve known Doug a long time. He’s a very bright guy, a good person. I think sometimes more is made out of that.

“He was trying to do what he could to make his team better. Once you get past the surprise of it, and you then roll your sleeves up and get to work on what you want to do, I don’t think there’s any value in holding grudges. I mean, what good is going to come out of that?

I personally don’t think the Broberg offer sheet would of surprised Jackson. It sounded like Armstrong was talking to Brobergs agent since July 1st. I remember listening Gregor and Seravalli talking about a Broberg offersheet at 4.6m on July 1/2.

I bet the Holloway offersheet surprised them in conjunction with Brobergs though.
 
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SupremeTeam16

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May 31, 2013
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They worked together and directly on the McDavid application for exceptional status. So that's one direct point of intersection. It also was a smaller agency versus a super agency like today that often crosses over with large staffing to other sports and entertainment. NHL agency is a small world and business approaches by individuals are known within the industry and those across the table. Jackson has had seats in both worlds.

Per previous post, I can see where Jackson might not even had been involved directly in negotiations. Doesn't mean his strategic oversight and wealth of experience wouldn't have engaged internally.

It sounds nefarious and frankly victimy to think the Oilers were outmaneuvered in a fair game process within the CBA. They missed or dismissed a trade request by a disgruntled player and tried to wait out two contract situations which they knew had risk associated within the CBA to be offer sheeted. I also don't see Holloway as an unwilling dupe. His eyes were wide open to the hard truth of St. Louis or Edmonton and frankly sounds okay with the opportunity down the street. He bought into the Blues plan with the big bank invested in him to back up their sales job. I've never seen any lack of confidence in Holloway.

I think there is a trend of young players asserting more control over their futures through all mechanisms available to them. This might be another proof point that young players will choose financial security and opportunity over winning, even in leaving a team that was two goals away from a Stanley Cup. This is part of a bigger trend I see forming. Oilers unfortunately felt that an old business model and maybe the winning formula that has attracted older players would be enough to passively play chicken with its two young NHL players.
They worked together and directly on the McDavid application for exceptional status. So that's one direct point of intersection. It also was a smaller agency versus a super agency like today that often crosses over with large staffing to other sports and entertainment. NHL agency is a small world and business approaches by individuals are known within the industry and those across the table. Jackson has had seats in both worlds.

Per previous post, I can see where Jackson might not even had been involved directly in negotiations. Doesn't mean his strategic oversight and wealth of experience wouldn't have engaged internally.

It sounds nefarious and frankly victimy to think the Oilers were outmaneuvered in a fair game process within the CBA. They missed or dismissed a trade request by a disgruntled player and tried to wait out two contract situations which they knew had risk associated within the CBA to be offer sheeted. I also don't see Holloway as an unwilling dupe. His eyes were wide open to the hard truth of St. Louis or Edmonton and frankly sounds okay with the opportunity down the street. He bought into the Blues plan with the big bank invested in him to back up their sales job. I've never seen any lack of confidence in Holloway.

I think there is a trend of young players asserting more control over their futures through all mechanisms available to them. This might be another proof point that young players will choose financial security and opportunity over winning, even in leaving a team that was two goals away from a Stanley Cup. This is part of a bigger trend I see forming. Oilers unfortunately felt that an old business model and maybe the winning formula that has attracted older players would be enough to passively play chicken with its two young NHL players.
I never said Holloway was some oblivious dupe, my point is that he made a poor career choice both in terms of short term and long term, unless he believes he’s not good enough to perform with the opportunity to play with two of the best players in the world.

Overpaying unproven bag chasers isn’t a recipe for success. Having players who prioritize money over winning won’t increase your chances of winning and setting a precedent of either overpaying or trading young players before you want to because they want to get paid more then they’re worth and you’re scared of offer sheets probably isn’t a good idea either.
 

Mr Positive

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But if you look at it like Broberg returned a 2nd + 3rd and a prospect, then the value isn’t that far off. I don’t know what his value was but I doubt it was much higher than that. And once Theres rumours of a 4.6m cap hit, he probably has no trade value.
Imo the 4.6 is totally fine for one of these teams loaded with cap space and wanting a young top 4 D loaded with potential and development already paid for. Plus it is unlikely that the offer sheet even happens if all of a sudden the chance of matching skyrockets

As for that additional assets we got, that was for both Broberg and Holloway so it's split between them. If their value was two firsts at least before, then a 2nd, 2 3rds and a prospects is pretty bad. It takes a lot more than a 3rd to upgrade a 2nd to a 1st
 

North

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Jun 25, 2009
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Their value would be 1st round picks at least. Holloway definitely didn't lose value, and even if Broberg lost some value, he was a high 1st rounder who just had a great playoffs. The proof that his value fell was also a small sample. Dmen are also expected to take a little longer, and Broberg is still very young. But sure, not 8th overall anymore but a mid 1st for sure
You’re kidding yourself if you think based on their history they would pull first round picks.
 

FlameChampion

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Imo the 4.6 is totally fine for one of these teams loaded with cap space and wanting a young top 4 D loaded with potential and development already paid for. Plus it is unlikely that the offer sheet even happens if all of a sudden the chance of matching skyrockets

As for that additional assets we got, that was for both Broberg and Holloway so it's split between them. If their value was two firsts at least before, then a 2nd, 2 3rds and a prospects is pretty bad. It takes a lot more than a 3rd to upgrade a 2nd to a 1st

Well my response was aimed towards the person who was disappointed with losing Broberg but didn’t think much of Holloway.

I think there value was higher than we got. But I don’t think they were worth firsts. Broberg might of been a late first if a team really liked him. Holloway might of been a second. I assume most GM would probably know he a junk wrist.
 

Behind Enemy Lines

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I never said Holloway was some oblivious dupe, my point is that he made a poor career choice both in terms of short term and long term, unless he believes he’s not good enough to perform with the opportunity to play with two of the best players in the world.

Overpaying unproven bag chasers isn’t a recipe for success. Having players who prioritize money over winning won’t increase your chances of winning and setting a precedent of either overpaying or trading young players before you want to because they want to get paid more then they’re worth and you’re scared of offer sheets probably isn’t a good idea either.
I think there was some general thoughts expressed here and elsewhere that Holloway 'looked' sad and was pawned into this decision to sign an offer sheet. I never saw any of that. But I've also never seen Holloway have any self doubt about himself or his game. Actually pretty resilient to being moved around under Woodcroft. He choice money and ice-time over fighting for a 3W spot on a winning phase team that just signed two quality, veteran top 6 to take a run at a Cup.

Of course once the offer sheets were signed, the players value to the Oilers was out the window. Their market value proved grossly different and at fundamental odds to the Oilers team need for cheap and young support. The bet for St. Louis is their cap space with Krug's LTIR and a buy-out at pennies on the dollar if either fail to put together their upward trending games.

Like I continue to repeat in my posts. I think we're seeing a new trend with modern age young players who are asserting themselves to play where they want to play, gain financial security, and have a belief that the opportunity grass is greener elsewhere. Broberg and Holloway choosing money (like probably 99% of all of us) and consistent ice-time over a team 2 goals from a Cup is an eye opener that things are changing within the modern era workforce.
 

Mr Positive

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You’re kidding yourself if you think based on their history they would pull first round picks.
Imo that opinion is an example of the extreme fan bias for picks. A developed player is worth more than a question mark. Isn't a player taken at Holloway's draft position expected to pan out... exactly like he did? You aren't banking on a top line player, more like middle six.

True, they miss out on the lottery ticket aspect of a pick, but what's that truly worth? Plus based on Dmen, Broberg still has lottery ticket potential to be an impact top pairing guy. Of course he's worth more than a 1st
 

JordanGalhanth

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Apr 21, 2012
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Overall, as much as it's brutal how it played out, what's done is done and it's in the best interest for our own sanity to move on.

For Philip and Dylan...they gave us a few good memories, but they also chose immediate money for themselves over long-term commitment to the team that invested in them. I hope they feel the heavy sting of that choice in June when they see us hoist the Cup without them.

For the rest of us... The rookie tournament starts soon. The captain's skates are on. We've got a full year of Knoblauch awesomeness coming up, along with a promising upstart in Savoie (who I feel will end the season with the big club, if not make the team right out of camp).

There's new ground to uncover and new battles to win. Let's go.
 

Oilslick941611

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Jul 4, 2006
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So when contenders are up against the cap and still sign the RFA’s late in summer without an offer sheet are you going to question if they’re asleep at the wheel?
dude there were people here thinking that because Bowman didn't issue a statement immediately after the offer sheets broke that he was unaware they happened and somewhere in the mountains with no cell service or sleeping all day and doing nothing.

People HAVE NO IDEA WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED behind closed doors and some people here talk with such authority on subjects they don't know about or only have 1 side of the story and make definitive statements on partial or missing information.

People here think that things happen in linear instalments like a flowchart that lead to definitive end, that it's all a straight line and in a vacuum. Some people here just run theirs mouths to hear themselves talk.
 

FlameChampion

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Jul 13, 2011
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Imo that opinion is an example of the extreme fan bias for picks. A developed player is worth more than a question mark. Isn't a player taken at Holloway's draft position expected to pan out... exactly like he did? You aren't banking on a top line player, more like middle six.

True, they miss out on the lottery ticket aspect of a pick, but what's that truly worth? Plus based on Dmen, Broberg still has lottery ticket potential to be an impact top pairing guy. Of course he's worth more than a 1st

In regards to Holloway, I think Oilers picked him higher than he was projected to go. He was projected to go in the 20’s. I don’t recall many being that high on him.


The way that draft played out though, basically the top 13-14 guys went so it was a bit of a crap shoot. He didn’t really have productive NHL or AHL seasons and he had double wrist surgery and other injuries. I don’t know what his value was.

Oilers reached on Broberg to some extent but I am sure another team would of picked him high. Too many tools for some GM to not be enamoured with him. I think GM probably still liked his tool set despite some of his struggles.
 

Oilslick941611

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Do you prefer inactive? The market forced the Oilers into being reactive when the horses left the salary barn. They had inflated salaries imposed on them by not dealing with the RFA threat that became real and viable on July 1.

His vision on day 1 was stated to build a sustaining winning organization. They have a hole in young NHL depth notably a succession plan on left defense. The current right defense I don't think can be viewed as better or good enough with loss of a 20 point, 20 minute defensive defenseman who PK's and their big third pair RD who also penalty kills and area defends with condor like reach.

It's not a binary thing. Oilers are improved for a short-term Cup run. The sustaining winning window has questions and gaps with losing a top 8 and top 16 NHL ready in-house young players only now entering peak season performance. Their prospect pipeline is viewed as bottom third of the league (generously) and hollowed out by this loss - primarily Broberg as big, young puck moving d are harder to find and acquire and a position that traditionally takes longer to onboard and succeed at the NHL level.

I've applauded much of Jackson's strategic thinking and management work from day 1. Thought he killed free agency including a savvy McLeod trade. Unfortunately they missed clear risk whether aware or unaware (I have to believe the former) and the consequences are severe. Franchise altering no. But I venture virtually everyone on this board was pencilling Broberg and Holloway on opening night roster after seeing them elevate at the hardest level of competition this past June.
im convinced you have no idea what you are talking about and you are just working yourself in a frenzy over the offer sheets.

How was Jackson inactive? because 2 low priority RFAs werent signed before high profile/priority UFAs that could actually affect the team this year?

You are acting like Broberg is a sure thing, he isn't and hasn't shown that he is. What if we signed broberg July 1st and he absolutely flops? or worse, we matched the offer sheet and he flops and we have 13 million in deadweight on D corps for 2 years with no hope of trading either of them or money to replace them. seriously, have you read your posts?
 
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Behind Enemy Lines

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Imo that opinion is an example of the extreme fan bias for picks. A developed player is worth more than a question mark. Isn't a player taken at Holloway's draft position expected to pan out... exactly like he did? You aren't banking on a top line player, more like middle six.

True, they miss out on the lottery ticket aspect of a pick, but what's that truly worth? Plus based on Dmen, Broberg still has lottery ticket potential to be an impact top pairing guy. Of course he's worth more than a 1st
I'm not sure many people saw a recent top 10 pick Savoie as a trade return for McLeod. It's not unreasonable like you point out for a team looking to make a jump betting on an NHL ready player coming off a final four Cup run airlifted into play after a month as a black ace.

An example is the poaching team St. Louis with a strong prospect pool of pedigree forwards as options or even this year's #16 Adam Jiricek, a big, raw LD whose years away. That's a reasonable scenario for Broberg. Holloway is tougher as middle roster wingers are the most plentiful and cheapest asset to find.
 

Mr Positive

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I'm not sure many people saw a recent top 10 pick Savoie as a trade return for McLeod. It's not unreasonable like you point out for a team looking to make a jump betting on an NHL ready player coming off a final four Cup run airlifted into play after a month as a black ace.

An example is the poaching team St. Louis with a strong prospect pool of pedigree forwards as options or even this year's #16 Adam Jiricek, a big, raw LD whose years away. That's a reasonable scenario for Broberg. Holloway is tougher as middle roster wingers are the most plentiful and cheapest asset to find.
Trade value for young players isn't so well established compared to rental players. They aren't traded so often because they are too valuable to an organization

The Savoie McLeod trade is interesting but it does highlight that actual performance at the NHL level is more valuable than equivalent draft value.

I think in Savoie's case he was valuable but not to the Sabres, as they've been so bad that their prospect pool is stacked. Even a minor glitch in development is enough to drop him in their rankings. What they are desperate for is graduated young players, and McLeod even has playoff experience. These players are usually not for sale. I'd easily say that McLeod value has far exceeded his draft position as a 2nd rounder.

I'd compare Broberg to Savoie, if Savoie had showed signs at the NHL level that he was worth his draft position. Savoie's value is where Broberg's was a couple years ago when everyone was doubting him.
 

Behind Enemy Lines

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I personally don’t think the Broberg offer sheet would of surprised Jackson. It sounded like Armstrong was talking to Brobergs agent since July 1st. I remember listening Gregor and Seravalli talking about a Broberg offersheet at 4.6m on July 1/2.

I bet the Holloway offersheet surprised them in conjunction with Brobergs though.
Agree, it shouldn't have been a surprise. The player's camp asked for a trade in-season and there was clear disconnect about his handling and place within a veteran team. Maybe they were surprised by Holloway but really have to prepare for all scenarios. And if not surprised, why not be aggressive in negotiation to determine if the player(s) can be signed within your budget threshold instead of playing chicken hoping for capitulation.

Media broadly were speculating about potential offer sheets with the cap infusion. Armstrong himself said as much in June during a media avail. which I would speculate a dialed-in Saravalli would have heard or been aware of.
 

Tobias Kahun

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The 2nd, 3rd and a prospect that they got for Broberg is more than he would’ve gotten in a trade.

I think the oilers were aware of a potential offer sheet, I don’t think they expected it to be at 3x the value of the players.
 
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Behind Enemy Lines

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im convinced you have no idea what you are talking about and you are just working yourself in a frenzy over the offer sheets.

How was Jackson inactive? because 2 low priority RFAs were signed before high profile/priority UFAs that could actually affect the team this year?

You are acting like Broberg is a sure thing, he isn't and hasn't shown that he is. What if we signed broberg July 1st and he absolutely flops? or worse, we matched the offer sheet and he flops and we have 13 million in deadweight on D corps for 2 years with no hope of trading either of them or money to replace them. seriously, have you read your posts?
You are mighty aggressive with your tone, sir. Previously falsely declaring that I have some sort of weird vendetta about Oilers management.

I'm not acting at all like Broberg is a sure thing. He's an emergent prospect who stepped up in late stage playoff competition and a stellar AHL reset season. St. Louis were given opportunity within the CBA to assign their own value to both Broberg and Holloway. That's all that matters. The question is how did it get to that point with two young players on a team with very limited NHL ready youth to help sustain this team's winning window. It's fair to ask how this happened given all the information available as to team vulnerabilities, fractured relationship, and time lag from team control, opening of free agency on July 1 and a month and a half when the hammer dropped with the external market setting an unreachable value on Broberg and Holloway.

The issue is not after the market set Broberg's valuation at $4.6 million AAV. That was my first post when the offer sheet was signed. I expected Broberg was gone but maybe they would squeeze for Holloway. How did it get to the point?
 

Tobias Kahun

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You are mighty aggressive with your tone, sir. Previously falsely declaring that I have some sort of weird vendetta about Oilers management.

I'm not acting at all like Broberg is a sure thing. He's an emergent prospect who stepped up in late stage playoff competition and a stellar AHL reset season. St. Louis were given opportunity within the CBA to assign their own value to both Broberg and Holloway. That's all that matters. The question is how did it get to that point with two young players on a team with very limited NHL ready youth to help sustain this team's winning window. It's fair to ask how this happened given all the information available as to team vulnerabilities, fractured relationship, and time lag from team control, opening of free agency on July 1 and a month and a half when the hammer dropped with the external market setting an unreachable value on Broberg and Holloway.

The issue is not after the market set Broberg's valuation at $4.6 million AAV. That was my first post when the offer sheet was signed. I expected Broberg was gone but maybe they would squeeze for Holloway. How did it get to the point?
You still don’t seem to understand that teams squeeze RFAs all the time while up against the cap and don’t end up losing them to offersheets.

For example Evan Bouchard, he was signed August 23.

The team probably weighed the risk vs reward, if they could squeeze them for cheap vs losing to an offer sheet.
 
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Behind Enemy Lines

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The 2nd, 3rd and a prospect that they got for Broberg is more than he would’ve gotten in a trade.

I think the oilers were aware of a potential offer sheet, I don’t think they expected it to be at 3x the value of the players.
What do you think they would expect for an offer sheet? It was strategically placed to fall under minor compensation of a 2nd round pick and Holloway a 3rd. Makes no sense to table an offer sheet for the sake of it being easy to match. It was always about risk-return to acquire an NHL ready big, mobile defenseman. Holloway helped to ensure the handcuffs.
 

Tobias Kahun

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What do you think they would expect for an offer sheet? It was strategically placed to fall under minor compensation of a 2nd round pick and Holloway a 3rd. Makes no sense to table an offer sheet for the sake of it being easy to match. It was always about risk-return to acquire an NHL ready big, mobile defenseman. Holloway helped to ensure the handcuffs.
I think they were probably pencilling in the Holloway deal for broberg and no signing of holloway. Considering that’s still a pretty good overpay for broberg at 2.4
 

Behind Enemy Lines

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You still don’t seem to understand that teams squeeze RFAs all the time while up against the cap and don’t end up losing them to offersheets.

For example Evan Bouchard, he was signed August 23.

The team probably weighed the risk vs reward, if they could squeeze them for cheap vs losing to an offer sheet.
I totally understand that strategy worked in the covid flat cap era where there wasn't extra money to roll into offer sheets. And that the offer sheet signing on Bouchard would have to be significant enough that 1st or multiple 1st round picks come into play as compensation. The juice is not worth the squeeze. And McLeod was signed early August so the double offer sheet risk wasn't a factor.

The Blues found the financial vulnerability point with Edmonton and doubled down with two offers with meagre compensation of a 2nd and 3rd round picks. So they were taking a reasonable risk to get one or maybe two players with minimal loss.

If you're going to use the nuclear option which is an inflationary tool and pisses off the receiving team, then you position the offer to succeed versus a weak half measure.
 

Behind Enemy Lines

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I think they were probably pencilling in the Holloway deal for broberg and no signing of holloway. Considering that’s still a pretty good overpay for broberg at 2.4
I can't speculate on what the Oilers ceiling offers would be for either Broberg or Holloway. What I wonder is why they didn't move faster and more aggressively to negotiate to their line in the sand (whether high million or low two million as you suggest). If you can't find the effective salary price point then pivot to trading him.
 
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AM

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That sounds a bit scary actually
July 1 replenishment means overpaying for free agents usually and trade deadline replenishment usually means selling vets for picks
We are going to eventually need some high functioning ELC’s to maintain our window
No, players who want to win will provide the contract to allow them to play for Edmonton.
 
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Fourier

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They should have been aware. They had multiple vulnerabilities beginning with cap space. They have an experienced super agent running the organization who's leveraged the CBA for client value including recent team negotiation with the Connor Brown contract. If the Oilers suspected the players were not going to sign 'fair deals' (team budget vs. market), then even more they should have moved early and aggressively to move the players. It was public knowledge St. Louis discussed both players at the deadline and by some suggestion the trade deadline two years ago. The Oilers were in the market for veteran players for the past several seasons and among their prospective trade assets were Broberg and Holloway.
I could easily argue that unless they were explicitly told that there was an OS in play that there was no reason to increase their offers or to move either player. The vast majority of these situations, probably 95%+, resolve themselves in the team's favour. But if they were made aware of the threat of an offer sheet, or even strongly suspected it, trading the players would have been more challenging.

While not quite the same of course, we have recently seen some very good players let go because of the threat of pending arbitration, and not just by cap-strapped teams. Teams are always reluctant to give RFA's too much because of the significant inflationary impact such deals have and those that are in a position to sign for more than the norm have seen their value decrease substantially. Neither player was arbitration eligible, but any significant known or even perceived threat of an OS would have had a similar dampening effect. It seems clear that any team looking to acquire these guys would have similar knowledge of the situation. Aside from St. Louis the threat of a significant OS would have been an issue for any team looking to deal for the pair or individually, reducing the compensation.

From a risk management point of view I still do not see any significant error that management made. They did not lose the players for nothing, nor were they ever at any risk of doing so. At best the compensation that they might have received would very likely have been only a modest improvement on what they got. That is just a historical fact. Frankly, as much as I am disappointed that they lost both players, because of the extreme value of cap space to this team, I actually think that at least for the next two years the team is currently in a stronger position to succeed than they would have been had they given them much more than they were offered.
 
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