OHL Expansion

[Kingpin794]

I know Flint well, and Flint had an IHL team back in the day that did well with attendance. IHL at that point was a feeder team for the NHL on the level of the AHL. The later UHL team was essentially a semi-pro league. Its like comparing the AHL now and your neighbor's beer league. USHL and OHL are far more close in terms of quality of play.

That's kind of the point though. The IHL back in the original days of the Generals and Gears meant something. The NHL wasn't this megabrand. Smaller pro leagues carried some weight. Then they didn't and no one cared about them anymore, so they didn't show up. Flint had an NAHL team. I don't believe it was well attended but you can correct me on that. And yes while the USHL is closer to the OHL that the UHL ever was to the OG IHL, it's still not a league people really care about. For a junior league, there aren't a large amount of high end prospects there. What are people going there to watch most nights? Outside of the NTDP, most guys will be what? 2nd and 3rd line NCAA players? At least with the OHL I know I'm watching a few future NHL stars on any given night. Honestly the OHL is a better product than the AHL. It's the best hockey for the money you'll get outside of the NHL.

 

[DubCee21]

I don't know where you've gotten this number from but I highly doubt that Zoldan is worth 30 billion. That's more than Steve Cohen.

I know Flint well, and Flint had an IHL team back in the day that did well with attendance. IHL at that point was a feeder team for the NHL on the level of the AHL. The later UHL team was essentially a semi-pro league. Its like comparing the AHL now and your neighbor's beer league. USHL and OHL are far more close in terms of quality of play.

A simple google search turned up several links with this number. His fireworks business alone brings in $100M/ yr and they've been around 40+ yrs. It's not a stretch to think $30B isn't unreachable through other ventures and investments. Also, his co-owner of the Phantoms, Murry Gunty, the CEO of Black Bear Sports( which owns many minor hockey teams and sports venues all over the US) is a multi billionaire who got much of his wealth through private equity and real estate.

 

[shenmue16]

That's kind of the point though. The IHL back in the original days of the Generals and Gears meant something. The NHL wasn't this megabrand. Smaller pro leagues carried some weight. Then they didn't and no one cared about them anymore, so they didn't show up. Flint had an NAHL team. I don't believe it was well attended but you can correct me on that. And yes while the USHL is closer to the OHL that the UHL ever was to the OG IHL, it's still not a league people really care about. For a junior league, there aren't a large amount of high end prospects there. What are people going there to watch most nights? Outside of the NTDP, most guys will be what? 2nd and 3rd line NCAA players? At least with the OHL I know I'm watching a few future NHL stars on any given night. Honestly the OHL is a better product than the AHL. It's the best hockey for the money you'll get outside of the NHL.

We're talking about Muskegon and Youngstown, two places with small fanbases and limited following of hockey. Youngstown is bottom two for attendance in the USHL. Moving to the OHL would bring a marginal increase, but either of these teams will likely still rank in the bottom five for attendance. I assume their cost of operating the team will increase heavily. But I highly doubt that switching from the USHL to the OHL is going to move the needle for their numbers. The US remains a difficult market, because I get the feeling that people in Flint barely notice the Firebirds, and nobody in Plymouth cared when the Whalers left. It's just a different beast versus Canada. My opinion is that junior hockey is just not as culturally significant for Americans.

A simple google search turned up several links with this number. His fireworks business alone brings in $100M/ yr and they've been around 40+ yrs. It's not a stretch to think $30B isn't unreachable through other ventures and investments. Also, his co-owner of the Phantoms, Murry Gunty, the CEO of Black Bear Sports( which owns many minor hockey teams and sports venues all over the US) is a multi billionaire who got much of his wealth through private equity and real estate.

There is a single link on a website called Naija News that lists his net-worth as $30B and a poster on Reddit that claims he's worth 30 billion. I don't think you realize how massive of a number that is. Dan Gilbert is worth about 33 billion and was ranked by Forbes as the third richest sports owner in the US. You're quoting a recent revenue number that doesn't take into account any financial cost of running a company. 100m in revenue is not 100m in profit. Even if that was true, Phantom would have to make that entire amount for 300 years to get anywhere near $30B. The entire fireworks industry in the United States is worth about $2.3B. Even considering other investments, there is absolutely no way that either of these investors is near the net worth that you think they're at.

 

[MJ5]

Kessler as Antitrust Litigator Could Reshape Junior Hockey

Famed litigator Jeffrey Kessler has been retained by the Youngstown Phantoms as team pursues entry into the OHL amid chaos in junior hockey industry.

www.sportico.com

 

[Kingpin794]

Well Zoldan has to be worth a decent bit and not afraid to spend it to make the OHL work if he’s retaining Kessler. USHL isn’t winning that lawsuit of this goes to court.

 

[LDN]

 

[OMG67]

I have a feeling that USA Hockey feels if they lose those two teams, the entire USHL program will start to crumble. If it does, the USA Hockey program will crumble with it.

You have to think that these two teams would be the first domino. This is starting to shape up like the PGA vs LIV where some form of merger is required but neither side want to talk in those terms.

 

[frontsfan67]

I have a feeling that USA Hockey feels if they lose those two teams, the entire USHL program will start to crumble. If it does, the USA Hockey program will crumble with it.

You have to think that these two teams would be the first domino. This is starting to shape up like the PGA vs LIV where some form of merger is required but neither side want to talk in those terms.

Was thinking that. I’m sure if 2 teams join maybe more will want to join in coming years and lead to the eventual demise of the USHL.

On the other hand. Means we wouldn’t probably have to play the same teams 8 times anymore! I’m all for it.

50k transfer fee for a player to go from USHL to the CHL is absolutely RIDICULOUS. Money hungry badgers.

 

[Golden_Jet]

It’s basically a given Belleville will have a OHL team back it’s just a matter of when they move the baby sens out

Like I said before , will not happen, and now Andlauer has confirmed it.
@ScoutLife4

 

[OMG67]

Like I said before , will not happen, and now Andlauer has confirmed it.
@ScoutLife4

Andlauer and Senators committed to keeping American Hockey League affiliate in Belleville – Belleville Sens

Ottawa Senators and Belleville Senators Owner Michael Andlauer has addressed recent rumours surrounding the relocation of the American Hockey League club and says the Belleville Sens and the City of Belleville continue to be an important piece to the organization. Speaking with TSN’s Claire...

bellevillesens.com

 

[Golden_Jet]

Andlauer and Senators committed to keeping American Hockey League affiliate in Belleville – Belleville Sens

Ottawa Senators and Belleville Senators Owner Michael Andlauer has addressed recent rumours surrounding the relocation of the American Hockey League club and says the Belleville Sens and the City of Belleville continue to be an important piece to the organization. Speaking with TSN’s Claire...

bellevillesens.com

Ya I saw the interview live a week or so ago, during an intermission. It was what some of us assumed, Belleville Senators staying and his OHL team sold, or staying in Brampton.

Some around Hamilton and Toronto didn’t believe AHL Sens were staying in Belleville.

 

[Savard18]

Was thinking that. I’m sure if 2 teams join maybe more will want to join in coming years and lead to the eventual demise of the USHL.

On the other hand. Means we wouldn’t probably have to play the same teams 8 times anymore! I’m all for it.

50k transfer fee for a player to go from USHL to the CHL is absolutely RIDICULOUS. Money hungry badgers.

I’m not sure what the NTDP is planning on doing but I really don’t see any other USHL teams joining the O. Chicago is the next closest and that’s almost 5 hours from Flint or Windsor via bus. I mean Sioux Falls or Omaha surely aren’t joining. I’d more likely think some NAHL teams step up and join the USHL to keep it afloat but their talent pool is going to be thinned out significantly. The USHL should have focused geographically on Michigan, Illinois, Wisconsin, Minnesota, Ohio and western PA. Or something like that. I mean, c’mon. Iowa and Nebraska?

 

[OMG67]

I’m not sure what the NTDP is planning on doing but I really don’t see any other USHL teams joining the O. Chicago is the next closest and that’s almost 5 hours from Flint or Windsor via bus. I mean Sioux Falls or Omaha surely aren’t joining. I’d more likely think some NAHL teams step up and join the USHL to keep it afloat but their talent pool is going to be thinned out significantly. The USHL should have focused geographically on Michigan, Illinois, Wisconsin, Minnesota, Ohio and western PA. Or something like that. I mean, c’mon. Iowa and Nebraska?

I think they are more targets for the WHL on that side of the lake. It would make it easier for teams like Brandon and the southern Saskatchewan teams.

 

[donjohnson]

A simple google search turned up several links with this number. His fireworks business alone brings in $100M/ yr and they've been around 40+ yrs. It's not a stretch to think $30B isn't unreachable through other ventures and investments. Also, his co-owner of the Phantoms, Murry Gunty, the CEO of Black Bear Sports( which owns many minor hockey teams and sports venues all over the US) is a multi billionaire who got much of his wealth through private equity and real estate.

So I just went off of the first link I saw and after doing some thinking, it is pretty far fetched to think it's 30 billion and he doesn't show up on the forbes richest americans where the amount starts at 3 billion.

I found another site that estimated it at 150million which is probably a little more realistic but it could be north of that. He just donated 750,000 worth of fireworks to the Trump inauguration and 5 million to Youngstown state so he's got some scratch for sure.

If you use the example I had before (losing 1 million), it would be like someone worth 1,000,000 losing 6 or 7 grand which is not that much. Point is, Zoldan has plenty of clams to be a big boy in the CHL world.

 

[shenmue16]

I’m not sure what the NTDP is planning on doing but I really don’t see any other USHL teams joining the O. Chicago is the next closest and that’s almost 5 hours from Flint or Windsor via bus. I mean Sioux Falls or Omaha surely aren’t joining. I’d more likely think some NAHL teams step up and join the USHL to keep it afloat but their talent pool is going to be thinned out significantly. The USHL should have focused geographically on Michigan, Illinois, Wisconsin, Minnesota, Ohio and western PA. Or something like that. I mean, c’mon. Iowa and Nebraska?

Sioux Falls and Fargo seem to be doing well. ND/SD makes sense when you consider that team with the single highest attendance in division 1 college hockey is the University of North Dakota, which is in Grand Forks. According to their site, last season they were 38th in the world for attendance (31 NHL teams + Euro teams, ahead of the Arizona Coyotes). That being said, I agree that I can't see any other USHL team joining the OHL.

I have a feeling that USA Hockey feels if they lose those two teams, the entire USHL program will start to crumble. If it does, the USA Hockey program will crumble with it.

You have to think that these two teams would be the first domino. This is starting to shape up like the PGA vs LIV where some form of merger is required but neither side want to talk in those terms.

USA Hockey does a lot more than simply operate a USHL team, and I realistically cannot see them falling apart as an organization simply because of the USHL falling apart. They could absolutely disband their team, and a Plymouth team could return. I also think a merger would be disastrous for the USHL and OHL. It makes more sense to pitch the USHL as a 4th CHL league and consolidate the teams. USHL is probably nearing the end of it's lifetime, but I don't think the OHL would be smart to take on teams that will stretch the travel schedule even further. OHL needs to stay out of anything West of Lake Michigan.

 

[Golden_Jet]

A simple google search turned up several links with this number. His fireworks business alone brings in $100M/ yr and they've been around 40+ yrs. It's not a stretch to think $30B isn't unreachable through other ventures and investments. Also, his co-owner of the Phantoms, Murry Gunty, the CEO of Black Bear Sports( which owns many minor hockey teams and sports venues all over the US) is a multi billionaire who got much of his wealth through private equity and real estate.

100 million in sales a year is not 100 million in profits.

 

[Kingpin794]

I think they are more targets for the WHL on that side of the lake. It would make it easier for teams like Brandon and the southern Saskatchewan teams.

Don't think the WHL is eyeing those plains teams from the USHL. Have heard they are trying poach the BCHL's crown jewel in Penticton. Them and Chilliwack would be top notch adds to round them out at 24.

 

[Corso]

Don't think the WHL is eyeing those plains teams from the USHL. Have heard they are trying poach the BCHL's crown jewel in Penticton. Them and Chilliwack would be top notch adds to round them out at 24.

Heard from more than one source that Penticton is the prime target....

So I just went off of the first link I saw and after doing some thinking, it is pretty far fetched to think it's 30 billion and he doesn't show up on the forbes richest americans where the amount starts at 3 billion.

I found another site that estimated it at 150million which is probably a little more realistic but it could be north of that. He just donated 750,000 worth of fireworks to the Trump inauguration and 5 million to Youngstown state so he's got some scratch for sure.

If you use the example I had before (losing 1 million), it would be like someone worth 1,000,000 losing 6 or 7 grand which is not that much. Point is, Zoldan has plenty of clams to be a big boy in the CHL world.

He's going to need that scratch because losses would be rather excessive in the first few seasons before he can build up the fan base....if he can build up the fan base.

 

[Captain Crash]

Apologies if I'm missing something here, but why do so many posts seem to assume that the operational costs of the OHL will be so much higher for Youngstown than the USHL? They would add the living stipend and education packages, but the travel burden and budget would be exceptionally reduced.

Currently, their nearest opponent, the USNTDP, is 3.5 hours away. Their furthest are Fargo and Tri City, each over 15 hours away. Even in their own division, they have a 9+ hour trek to Green Bay.

Conversely, in the OHL they'd pick up an instant rival in Erie with a 1.5 hour drive and would likely be in a division with the Michigan teams, Windsor, and Sarnia, all under 5 hours. Their longest trips in the O would be to Ottawa and the Soo, and neither still wouldn't crack 8 hours, which, again, is over an hour closer than one of their in-division opponents now.

Those long drives for them in USHL aren't just harder on the players, but it means higher costs in bussing, per diem, and lodging. The OHL cuts their travel times practically in half. I don't think the owners want to switch because they think they'll get an attendance bump-- I think they just want to decrease their costs.

 

[Otto]

Conversely, in the OHL they'd pick up an instant rival in Erie with a 1.5 hour drive and would likely be in a division with the Michigan teams, Windsor, and Sarnia, all under 5 hours. Their longest trips in the O would be to Ottawa and the Soo, and neither still wouldn't crack 8 hours, which, again, is over an hour closer than one of their in-division opponents now.

I still don't see Youngstown playing in the West, that would mean 2 expansion teams playing in the same division plus really screw over The Soo. Barring any major realignment I see Youngstown in the mid-west.

But your overall argument I agree with