OHL Expansion

[beastintheeast]

OHL green lights aggressive expansion plan

After a recent vote allowing Canadian Hockey League players to join men’s Division I NCAA hockey starting next season, one of the CHL's leagues is now eyeing expansion.

www.sportsnet.ca

This is a strange article.

Can anyone really see the USHL and OHL joining? I don't just based on travel.

When are people going to give up on the GTA and Hamilton? If people want to watch Junior hockey, they have the OJHL, which is pretty good hockey. The cost is just not with it as well as so much going on in the city

With the low attendance and fact that Hamilton could not handle it where in Ontario could you see an expansion team or do you think it would all be expanding to Upper NY, Pen Michigan

Click to read more...

 

[EvenSteven]

The only USHL cities a see possible based on travel is the already much talked about Youngstown and Muskegon. The rest of that league is too far west.

So if they were included, plus two Ontario based teams.

Not sure there’s a city in NY state.

Four teams may be biting off more than they can chew.

In Ontario, once the Steelhead franchise is sorted out, Belleville would work if their AHL team is moved out of the way.

 

[coolhandluc44]

I posted this in the NCAA/CHL thread so I figured I post this hear too

I have a crazy Toronto expansion idea

1. The team is plays out of Varisty arena at the University of Toronto. I know the arena needs a renovation, but imagine nice new seats, video board and lighting etc. The Brantford Civic Centre was a dump before the renovations happened for the Bulldogs so anything is possible. I have never been to this facility so I don't know the shape but it looks like it can hold about 4000. Maybe you even call the team the Toronto Varsity Blues, maybe have a student band section and try to market it like it where an NCAA team in the OHL.
2. The teams plays out of the old Maple Leaf Gardens. I know this venue is on the really small size (I believe 2600 capacity). Maybe there is a way you could get 400 more bodies in there to make it 3000. Maybe call the team the Arena's or St Pats. You would try and get fans the allure of seeing competitive hockey back at Maple Leaf Gardens

I think if the Toronto market is going to work, maybe have the team in city and market it to the hockey fans living in the city, university and college students and the not the suburbs. Toronto would not be my preferred choice, but if you’re going to try it try something abstract. Other option of course is if the Toronto Marlies ever left you put an OHL team there and call them the Marlies, just like what they did with the Hamilton Bulldogs.

 

[Kingpin794]

My impression from Friedman was that SOME people want 4 teams right away but that 2 is the more likely thing. Youngstown and Muskegon come in next season. Toronto and Belleville as a 5 year plan. 4 teams in 5 seasons would be rapid/aggressive in my book.

 

[OMG67]

My impression from Friedman was that SOME people want 4 teams right away but that 2 is the more likely thing. Youngstown and Muskegon come in next season. Toronto and Belleville as a 5 year plan. 4 teams in 5 seasons would be rapid/aggressive in my book.

Plus Burlington and maybe Cornwall

 

[EvenSteven]

I’d try out Cornwall, Chatham or Burlington ahead of another Toronto team. They’d probably double the attendance that any Toronto team would draw with their eyes closed.

 

[OMG67]

I’d try out Cornwall, Chatham or Burlington ahead of another Toronto team. They’d probably double the attendance that any Toronto team would draw with their eyes closed.

From my perspective, geography matters. If the OHL were to expand to 24 teams, that likely means 4 divisions of six teams. It makes sense to try to have six teams east of Toronto for travel purposes. That is where Cornwall and Belleville come into play. That assumes a town like Whitby couldn’t also house a team. They probably could but how would that affect Oshawa?

I sort of also wonder if a second team in Ottawa would work out of Kanata. The dynamics of how people in Ottawa travel is interesting. People in Kanata generally wouldn’t come downtown for a 67’s game and we know the people in the East end and downtown didn’t really travel out to Kanata to attend games during the Lansdowne site closure. We have a team in Gatineau that is supported by primarily those in Gatineau. With the Senators pending move to a new downtown arena soon, I could see a Major Junior Team in Kanata being very viable.

Of course, I have been pining for a move of the Gatineau Olympiques to the OHL. Their travel schedule is horrid. They basically have to go through Montreal for all games other than Rouyn-Noranda and Val D’Or. AND, those travel times are 5 hours plus. It could make more sense for the OHL to take all three of those teams. It is only around 3 hours to North Bay and Sudbury. Those four teams plus Barrie and then find another team….

 

[coolhandluc44]

I’d try out Cornwall, Chatham or Burlington ahead of another Toronto team. They’d probably double the attendance that any Toronto team would draw with their eyes closed.

I would agree. It’s almost like the CFL mindset with the Argos. I get the mindset that a popular Toronto team would be great for the league. In an ideal world you would want a Toronto team. Problem is how do you make it work. I think you are going to need someone with a great marketing background and some outside the box thinking to make it work

 

[EvenSteven]

I would agree. It’s almost like the CFL mindset with the Argos. I get the mindset that a popular Toronto team would be great for the league. In an ideal world you would want a Toronto team. Problem is how do you make it work. I think you are going to need someone with a great marketing background and some outside the box thinking to make it work

…. and DEEP pockets to survive the years it would take to get it to work.

 

[OMG67]

I would agree. It’s almost like the CFL mindset with the Argos. I get the mindset that a popular Toronto team would be great for the league. In an ideal world you would want a Toronto team. Problem is how do you make it work. I think you are going to need someone with a great marketing background and some outside the box thinking to make it work

It won’t work no matter what you do. At best, they would get transient fan bases. I like the idea of trying to tie in with U of T or something like that but that provides the transient fanbase that you can never truly cultivate. You have a fan for 3-4 years and then they are gone.

The demographics in Toronto do not allow for a Major Junior hockey team. there is absolutely no reason why it should be forced either. Junior Hocke is community based. It always has been. Toronto isn’t a community. You would need a real Toronto community to work. They tried Mississauga, Brampton and downtown with St Mike’s. None of it really worked. These communities are chalked full of new Canadians and it really isn’t part of the culture. Their kids may play but you need multiple generations to form or change culture. Each of those cultures have stronger cultural communities rather than geographic communities.

We look at a town like Brantford and understand it is a community. But, that isn’t’ the same in Toronto. There are cultural communities within the geographic community. There would need to be a driving force behind a shift to hockey being part of foreign cultural communities. Other than waiting it out for a couple generations for hockey to grow and be part of the culture, there really isn’t a lot you can do.

 

[ohloutsider]

I’d try out Cornwall, Chatham or Burlington ahead of another Toronto team. They’d probably double the attendance that any Toronto team would draw with their eyes closed.

Chatham and Burlington don't have an arena to support a team. Both may in the future but it is only a dream at this point.

 

[coolhandluc44]

It won’t work no matter what you do. At best, they would get transient fan bases. I like the idea of trying to tie in with U of T or something like that but that provides the transient fanbase that you can never truly cultivate. You have a fan for 3-4 years and then they are gone.

The demographics in Toronto do not allow for a Major Junior hockey team. there is absolutely no reason why it should be forced either. Junior Hocke is community based. It always has been. Toronto isn’t a community. You would need a real Toronto community to work. They tried Mississauga, Brampton and downtown with St Mike’s. None of it really worked. These communities are chalked full of new Canadians and it really isn’t part of the culture. Their kids may play but you need multiple generations to form or change culture. Each of those cultures have stronger cultural communities rather than geographic communities.

We look at a town like Brantford and understand it is a community. But, that isn’t’ the same in Toronto. There are cultural communities within the geographic community. There would need to be a driving force behind a shift to hockey being part of foreign cultural communities. Other than waiting it out for a couple generations for hockey to grow and be part of the culture, there really isn’t a lot you can do.

Agree 100% . I have a hard time seeing it work, but if there going to try, I’d say do something abstract or a little less traditional.

It would be a great project for someone who is super rich and wants to own a hockey team, loves junior hockey and like EvenSteven said won’t mind loosing money for multiple years to get it up and ready. I don’t know how many people are out there lol

 

[User13452]

What about Orillia or Huntsville or Bracebridge? Maybe they aren’t big enough cities not sure

 

[Ward Cornell]

One item never talked about here is expansion includes an USHL team but that team transfers to another US city to lessen travel.
Is the OHL territorial rights to players is locked in if they have a team in that state? I believe at one time it did. That could also come into play.

 

[bigsportsfan]

Unless we are talking about USHL teams joining the OHL, expansion makes no sense.

First, there are already enough teams with attendance struggles in the OHL. Some, like Brampton, may be looking for a new home sooner than later.

Secondly, more teams mean a decrease in the quality of hockey. I get it that with the NCAA allowing CHL players to play in the NCAA, more 16 year olds will want to play in the OHL. But on the other side, now 18 and 19 year olds can leave the OHL to play in the NCAA plus we have the talk that 19 year old CHL players will soon be able to play in the AHL.

If the OHL expands too much, we may be watching a level of play that is only slightly above Tier 2 Jr. A.

 

[bigsportsfan]

When are people going to give up on the GTA and Hamilton?

With the low attendance and fact that Hamilton could not handle it...

Low attendance??? Hamilton had very decent attendance numbers every season.

 

[Otto]

Unless we are talking about USHL teams joining the OHL, expansion makes no sense.

First, there are already enough teams with attendance struggles in the OHL. Some, like Brampton, may be looking for a new home sooner than later.

Secondly, more teams mean a decrease in the quality of hockey. I get it that with the NCAA allowing CHL players to play in the NCAA, more 16 year olds will want to play in the OHL. But on the other side, now 18 and 19 year olds can leave the OHL to play in the NCAA plus we have the talk that 19 year old CHL players will soon be able to play in the AHL.

If the OHL expands too much, we may be watching a level of play that is only slightly above Tier 2 Jr. A.

Overall Attendance isn't as bad as you make it out to be. Last season only 4 teams saw an attendance decrease over the previous season. And one of those was Brantford, comparing to the much larger Hamilton arena. So far this season, as of last weekends games 8 teams are down year over year, but only Niagara, Owen and, and Ottawa were also down at the end of last season, the other 5 teams showed an increase. Attendance in the OHL is very much cyclical. Brampton in particular was second last season in year over year attendance and are down 6.6% this year Sarnia was #1 last season and is down 6.04%

Overall the league is up 2.49% year over year after being up 3.8% last season. If ever there were a time for expansion it's now.

 

[ScoutLife4]

Any ohl team getting 3K bodies in seats plus is making a profit.
If an OHL team comes back to Belleville it will not be until after the 2027 season when Belleville leaves as they have full rights on their lease to the CAA Arena and all facilities.
They would have to exit for an OHL team to come in. (Which is likely the case post 2027 season when the lease expires.
City would likely allow an OHL team to play rent free for 5 or so years as well making it even more lucrative.

 

[OMG67]

Unless we are talking about USHL teams joining the OHL, expansion makes no sense.

First, there are already enough teams with attendance struggles in the OHL. Some, like Brampton, may be looking for a new home sooner than later.

Secondly, more teams mean a decrease in the quality of hockey. I get it that with the NCAA allowing CHL players to play in the NCAA, more 16 year olds will want to play in the OHL. But on the other side, now 18 and 19 year olds can leave the OHL to play in the NCAA plus we have the talk that 19 year old CHL players will soon be able to play in the AHL.

If the OHL expands too much, we may be watching a level of play that is only slightly above Tier 2 Jr. A.

I think the grandiose expansion plan will need to be over time. We could see Youngstown and Muskegon as early as next year for sure. But, I think further “expansion” will take time.

I agree that Brampton needs to be resolved but I think that is likely the only team that needs a solution. I think all other teams are in a decent situation.

The big issue is available arena’s at a calibre that makes sense for the OHL. I think ere are a lot of communities that could host an OHL team. Even smaller communities can. for those communities, they are the only game in town so it can be very popular. I think f you looka t Owen Sound, Sudbury, North Bay, Peterborough etc, you can see they all can work. The challenge is convincing the community (township) to either endorse building a new complex or renovating the existing to the level required to host an OHL team. I think that is the tough sell.

Cornwall has a rink that could almost host right now. Close. They would need an Owen Sound style renovation where they demolish one side and build it out with some private boxes etc. Belleville made some good Reno’s and would be a good community again. If the Senators could build out a rink in Kanata when they move downtown, I think Ottawa could host two teams. The big issue there is the owner already owns the Bulldogs…

Burlington will have a team. Chatham could have a team now if they had a rink. So, really, it is all about the arenas and lack of funding to build them.

 

[AttackSound]

From reading this article here's what I get from this.

The new commissioner is enthusiastic about the league and is looking at uncovering every stone. Which I certainly don't blame him for doing so beyond that, I can't say will see any massive movement on this front for some time at least not for the nearing future yet.

There are a few places on the map that could be in the mix, that have been rumored by fans but none of them at the moment have shown any real traction in being the next coming franchise to join the OHL beyond rumors.

Will see what happens as this story unfolds and if/when this may come to happen but until then this might just be exactly what it is talk of what could be one day for the OHL. It seems to pop up more frequently from season to season by fans but the ones in charge will choose if they believe expansion is needed or not. I'm not sure if will see such decision anytime soon...

 

[OMG67]

From reading this article here's what I get from this.

The new commissioner is enthusiastic about the league and is looking at uncovering every stone. Which I certainly don't blame him for doing so beyond that, I can't say will see any massive movement on this front for some time at least not for the nearing future yet.

There are a few places on the map that could be in the mix, that have been rumored by fans but none of them at the moment have shown any real traction in being the next coming franchise to join the OHL beyond rumors.

Will see what happens as this story unfolds and if/when this may come to happen but until then this might just be exactly what it is talk of what could be one day for the OHL. It seems to pop up more frequently from season to season by fans but the ones in charge will choose if they believe expansion is needed or not. I'm not sure if will see such decision anytime soon...

Without viable arenas, there cannot be “aggressive” expansion. It is the arena situation that is holding expansion back, not viable communities. So, unless the expansion involves merging with other leagues or pulling from other leagues, I cannot see any sort of viable expansion right now.

The OHL is quite literally waiting for the Field of Dreams. Build it and we will come!

 

[ScoutLife4]

There are several USHL teams with barns that are much nicer then most of the OHL arena's.
There are a few that are probably even more suited for AHL to be honest.
Sioux City
Sioux Falls
Green Bay
to name a few.

Covelli Centre in Youngstown is a perfect OHL arena.
Trinity Health Arena -Muskegon - Needs some work to become an OHL rink -Probably upwards of 10M.

OHL is sitting on an opportunity to absorb a whole league.
I can see them doing so with any teams that want to pay league dues.

 

[OMG67]

There are several USHL teams with barns that are much nicer then most of the OHL arena's.
There are a few that are probably even more suited for AHL to be honest.
Sioux City
Sioux Falls
Green Bay
to name a few.

Covelli Centre in Youngstown is a perfect OHL arena.
Trinity Health Arena -Muskegon - Needs some work to become an OHL rink -Probably upwards of 10M.

OHL is sitting on an opportunity to absorb a whole league.
I can see them doing so with any teams that want to pay league dues.

Other than Muskegon and Youngstown, the remainder of the teams in the USHL are territorial WHL. It would make more sense to fold it into that league.

 

[ScoutLife4]

Other than Muskegon and Youngstown, the remainder of the teams in the USHL are territorial WHL. It would make more sense to fold it into that league.

Territories won't stay the same.
They are not going to have teams from Illinois and Wisc that want to join the CHL drive 25 hours for WHL games when they can travel 10 for OHL.
It's more then just the 2 Mich teams that want to move over.

 

[OMG67]

Territories won't stay the same.
They are not going to have teams from Illinois and Wisc that want to join the CHL drive 25 hours for WHL games when they can travel 10 for OHL.
It's more then just the 2 Mich teams that want to move over.

That’s overstated. It is a one way drive out on a long road trip with the WHL East and West teams home and home over two seasons.

Theoretically, the OHL could do it that way too with the Eastern Conference playing the USHL teams once per year with a home and home every two years but that would require a 14 day road trip every second season like the WHL. I am not too sure the OHL would go that route. Maybe they would but I cannot see it.