Speculation: Offseason coaching thread: Should they stay or should they go?

[Empoleon8771]

With a top core in place. Something doesn't quite match up. He couldn't get things done there, and yes, we should always worry about that. Just because our core is older influx of youth/skill can carry.

The Leafs top core is a bunch of losers while the Penguins have shown their core are winners.

 

[Tasty Biscuits]

We already know that Sullivan wasn't in favor of firing Rierden

When did he say that? Definitely missed that. Regardless, it's pretty weaksauce from Sully if that's his reaction to a Keefe hiring given the average NHL-coach's shelf-life and this team's past 2 seasons.

With a top core in place. Something doesn't quite match up. He couldn't get things done there, and yes, we should always worry about that. Just because our core is older influx of youth/skill can carry.

IMO stuff like coaches "getting things done" or not getting them done is wayyy over-romanticized. Hell, it's probably over-romanticized for players as well.

 

[Pancakes]

The Leafs top core is a bunch of losers while the Penguins have shown their core are winners.

Let's not kid ourselves. The Penguins core has done their fair share of embarrassing losing as well.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Not Keefe related but can you guys imagine how the local media is going to react when Sullivan finally is let go considering the gnashing and wailing over letting a dork like Reirden walk... which was like... the barest of bare minimums of what should have been done.

I'm thinking seppuku? Or perhaps some kind of Heaven's Gate situation?

 

[Pancakes]

Not Keefe related but can you guys imagine how the local media is going to react when Sullivan finally is let go considering the gnashing and wailing over letting a dork like Reirden walk... which was like... the barest of bare minimums of what should have been done.

I'm thinking seppuku? Or perhaps some kind of Heaven's Gate situation?

Yohe: "Yes Mike Sullivan has not won anything in the past twenty four years. There's no sugar coating that fact. But let's not forget that this man is arguably the best coach the Penguins have ever had, and won two Stanley Cups."

 

[Empoleon8771]

Let's not kid ourselves. The Penguins core has done their fair share of embarrassing losing as well.

The Penguins core is the most winning-est core the NHL has seen in the last 30 years.

 

[Pancakes]

The Penguins core is the most winning-est core the NHL has seen in the last 30 years.

Right, and even this core has tons of terrible playoff losses.

I don't think any of it has any bearing on Keefe's ability to coach or not. And I wouldn't be surprised if the Leafs core figures it out and wins. At one point we were in their boat more or less, with just the one cup to show for it, and years of playoff ineptitude.

 

[66-30-33]

Let's not kid ourselves. The Penguins core has done their fair share of embarrassing losing as well.

The cup is the hardest trophy to win in all of sports. You could also say every teams core has had embarrassments in the playoffs.

 

[Pancakes]

The cup is the hardest trophy to win in all of sports. You could also say every teams core has had embarrassments in the playoffs.

That's pretty much exactly my point. People make too much of winning in the playoffs. It's really frickin' hard to do.

 

[KrisLetAngry]

Trade Sully for a 4th to New Jersey.

Hire Keefe.

Honestly Sullivan should have been gone 3 years ago.

2 years ago especially after the Islanders loss.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

From a fans perspective? No one should be mad about that because he's a good coach and should absolutely be brought in. Hell, they should just fire Sullivan for him.

From Sullivan's perspective? I think he's going to be extremely upset if they fired Rierden only to hire the guy who is breathing down Sullivan's neck to take his job. We already know that Sullivan wasn't in favor of firing Rierden, Dubas doing that and then replacing him with Keefe would not sit well with him.

With that being said, Sullivan hasn't done anything to warrant the job security he has, so if he has an issue with it, tell him to do a better job.

Good. Some pressure from below is exactly what Sullivan needs. Maybe that will bring back some accountability and fire.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

That's pretty much exactly my point. People make too much of winning in the playoffs. It's really frickin' hard to do.

All the more reason why 3 in one era is pretty amazing. There have been some REAL lowlights to be sure but Sid/Malkin and a side of Letang have done a boatload for this team's legacy. Which is why I was always fine with a retirement tour. It was gonna be an awkward transition regardless and frankly I STILL don't think any of these guys are a problem.

The Leaf's core has plenty of talent or at least AM and MM do. But they've always struck me as a little unclutch and don't really change their mindset for the post-season. That was always one thing that impressed me about Malkin in particular (I never worried about Crosby... he's Crosby)... he would always make sure to clean up his game for the playoffs because he understands the stakes and that the games are simply different.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Trade Sully for a 4th to New Jersey.

Hire Keefe.

Honestly Sullivan should have been gone 3 years ago.

2 years ago especially after the Islanders loss.

I would argue 5 years ago after the Isles sweep. And if not that, definitely 4 years ago with the heartless effort vs Montreal in the bubble.

 

[KrisLetAngry]

I would argue 5 years ago after the Isles sweep. And if not that, definitely 4 years ago with the heartless effort vs Montreal in the bubble.

I definitely was one of the people wanting to keep him longer and I will admit that. Will not change my history.

I did feel it a bit against Montreal but I said probably just the bubble screwed everything up so I gave him a pass.

I was extremely against the extension.

 

[SEALBound]

Good. Some pressure from below is exactly what Sullivan needs. Maybe that will bring back some accountability and fire.

My thoughts exactly. If Sullivan is TRULY here to stay, it would be a hell of a power move by Dubas to hire Keefe to put pressure on Sullivan.

If Sullivan coached the way he did in 2016 and 2017, this would be a non-issue. But he got comfortable and was able to pick his own staff of yes men. Since then, complete and utter complacency and stubbornness. Putting someone in place to breath down his neck a bit is what is needed if he doesn't decide to leave on his own.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

NHL coaches are what they are. I have no idea why so many fans, media and teams get attached to them. They aren't re-inventing the wheel with these guys. The vast, vast majority of the time it ends up the same way and it isn't hard to see coming, frankly. Once Sullivan won his B2B he nearly immediately started getting comfortable to downright lazy and resistant to thinking around corners, keeping things fresh and surrounding himself with the BEST people. Everyone shoulda known, then.

It's hilarious to me that the Penguins think they are so smart that they've figured something out here that the rest of the league hasn't. Meanwhile they are going on a decade of abject failure.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

With a top core in place. Something doesn't quite match up. He couldn't get things done there, and yes, we should always worry about that. Just because our core is older influx of youth/skill can carry.

Then we're free to discredit all coaches who coach good rosters. Nothing matters until playoffs, right?
Definitely didn't feel that way, when we missed the playoffs the last 2 years.

I don't buy into this mentality. Regular season is 80-90% of their job.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

NHL coaches are what they are. I have no idea why so many fans, media and teams get attached to them. They aren't re-inventing the wheel with these guys. The vast, vast majority of the time it ends up the same way and it isn't hard to see coming, frankly. Once Sullivan won his B2B he nearly immediately started getting comfortable to downright lazy and resistant to thinking around corners, keeping things fresh and surrounding himself with the BEST people. Everyone shoulda known, then.

It's hilarious to me that the Penguins think they are so smart that they've figured something out here that the rest of the league hasn't. Meanwhile they are going on a decade of abject failure.

It's less about strategy and more about ability to motivate and get buy-in. That's why we constantly see coaching bumps for new hires.
Although strategy and deployment certainly still matters.
Sullivan sucks at both of these aspects these days, so he's gotta go. There is no bloody way he would have gotten a 69 goal season out of Matthews, or a 98 point season out of Nylander. Forget it.

 

[CascadiaPenguin]

Yohe: "Yes Mike Sullivan has not won anything in the past twenty four years. There's no sugar coating that fact. But let's not forget that this man is arguably the best coach the Penguins have ever had, and won two Stanley Cups."

You forgot the infinitely repeated "He'll be hired the second he's available and make more money, to boot". It is well past absurd, more just sad these days.

 

[Tasty Biscuits]

Trade Sully for a 4th to New Jersey.

Hire Keefe.

Honestly Sullivan should have been gone 3 years ago.

2 years ago especially after the Islanders loss.

I would argue 5 years ago after the Isles sweep. And if not that, definitely 4 years ago with the heartless effort vs Montreal in the bubble.

He should've been gone after missing the playoffs last year for sure.

People acting like we weren't a healthy goaltender away from making a legitimate run in 2022 are completely out to lunch. It's laughable.

 

[CascadiaPenguin]

Good. Some pressure from below is exactly what Sullivan needs. Maybe that will bring back some accountability and fire.

Probably the reason Sully supposedly wanted to keep Reirden. That dude ain't getting another HC job in the NHL.

 

[BillyOcean]

Yohe: "Yes Mike Sullivan has not won anything in the past twenty four years. There's no sugar coating that fact. But let's not forget that this man is arguably the best coach the Penguins have ever had, and won two Stanley Cups."

You forgot the part where he's woofing a double hoagie while saying that.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I'm not sure what's going on. I thought it was against the rules to fire a coach who has an extension in place? Aren't those guys given endless excuses and chances?

 

[CascadiaPenguin]

He should've been gone after missing the playoffs last year for sure.

People acting like we weren't a healthy goaltender away from making a legitimate run in 2022 are completely out to lunch. It's laughable.

Has anyone suggested that? Hell, we've easily have made it to round two with Spicy Pork absent one Trouba chicken wing.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Probably the reason Sully supposedly wanted to keep Reirden. That dude ain't getting another HC job in the NHL.

Think it's just about them being close friends. Sully's gotten used to having his way.
He's under the impression that they work well together. But they don't, because the results are dogshit, Reirden's especially.