Official 2024-25 Utah HC Season Discussion.

[Arizonatah Coyetis]

Not many people who discuss hockey consider just playing the most as the determinant of a 1D or a 1 center.

I don't recall saying that. It's not what I'm trying to say.

Tell me what your definition of a 1D is. I've told you mine. I have a feeling that playing a lot of minutes will be part of it.

If you consider playing the most then I think you are seriously underrating number 2 center Draisaitl.

I don't underrate Draisaitl at all either. I'm not sure how this relates.

 

[Arizonatah Coyetis]

delete

 

[Jamieh]

I don't recall saying that. It's not what I'm trying to say.

Tell me what your definition of a 1D is. I've told you mine. I have a feeling that playing a lot of minutes will be part of it.



I don't underrate Draisaitl at all either. I'm not sure how this relates.

Its the guy you depend on to lead the team and eat minutes on the backend. Generally well rounded so they add to offence and can shut guys down defensively. Alternatively if a player is really special offensively you can look away a bit at defensively deficiencies. And also if their defence is so strong you might not need them to add offense. Talking Sergachev he is not special offensively and doesn't exactly play a tight defensive game so imo not a real 1D and if he is your 1D you probably don't have a good defensive group unless you have a few as good as him. You aren't putting him out 25 minutes a night because you want to but more because you really don't have options. Draisaitl relates as you suggested he can't be a number 1 center because for Edmonton that's McDavid

 

[Arizonatah Coyetis]

Its the guy you depend on to lead the team and eat minutes on the backend. Generally well rounded so they add to offence and can shut guys down defensively.

The way I see it every coach has a d-man on their team that they trust the most and utilize this way. The rest is more of a debate about how good they are at the job. Some are better than others but they're all playing the same role for their coach/team. The 15 or so number we've been using as an example just means, to me, that there are 32 or so 1D out there and 15 or so of them are extremely good 1D. But the other 18 or so are still 1D because that's what they are to there team. That's the role they've been given.

Edit:

The word "Legit" means "extremely good" by definition. So legit 1D really means an extremely good 1D. It shouldn't be considered the standard. I know plenty more people see it your way instead of mine though. I just don't like it myself is all because it feels in some way flawed to me.

 

[Jakey53]

The way I see it every coach has a d-man on their team that they trust the most and utilize this way. The rest is more of a debate about how good they are at the job. Some are better than others but they're all playing the same role for their coach/team. The 15 or so number we've been using as an example just means, to me, that there are 32 or so 1D out there and 15 or so of them are extremely good 1D. But the other 18 or so are still 1D because that's what they are to there team. That's the role they've been given.

Edit:

The word "Legit" means "extremely good" by definition. So legit 1D really means an extremely good 1D. It shouldn't be considered the standard. I know plenty more people see it your way instead of mine though. I just don't like it myself is all because it feels in some way flawed to me.

I agree. If you can't find 15 1D in the NHL, playing in the best league in the world something is wrong. Sure some are better than others, that is normal. If Sergachev was still in Tampa and Hedman played for Utah, guess who woulde be the 1D for their team. Hedman is obviously the better of the two now, but is also older and has more experience. I would call Bouchard in Edmonton a 1D as well, Hughes in Vancouver, and the list goes on. Sometimes a player might not look like a 1D, but it could depend on the team that player is playing for. I wonder how Hedman would look playing for the Ducks?

 

[Coyotedroppings]

See how many Votes Serg gets this year if we make playoffs. Talk about carrying a team

I don’t know about carrying the team, but we sure as hell would be worse off w/o him.

It depends on your interpretation of a 1D is.

I have one. All teams have a defender that is basically designated their 1D, on a given night, so that’s what? 32 now?

 

[Coyotedroppings]

I agree. If you can't find 15 1D in the NHL, playing in the best league in the world something is wrong. Sure some are better than others, that is normal. If Sergachev was still in Tampa and Hedman played for Utah, guess who woulde be the 1D for their team. Hedman is obviously the better of the two now, but is also older and has more experience. I would call Bouchard in Edmonton a 1D as well, Hughes in Vancouver, and the list goes on. Sometimes a player might not look like a 1D, but it could depend on the team that player is playing for. I wonder how Hedman would look playing for the Ducks?

Excellent explanation.

 

[Jormungandr]

Prime OEL was a Norris candidate, top 5 or 10 a few years in voting, and primarily an excellent defensive D, Sergi is not either.

Evan Bouchard was 5th in Norris voting in 2024. Bouchard is horrendous in his own zone. Finishing 5-10 in Norris voting basically means nothing.

I’m not saying OEL was a bad defenseman. He was not. But he also was not a true 1D. We wouldn’t be eating a retained salary slot on him for the better part of a decade if he were. And if only he could live up to more than half of his contract that was more than fair for an actual 1D. Which he was not. And why his contract was a boat anchor.

 

[cobra427]

Evan Bouchard was 5th in Norris voting in 2024. Bouchard is horrendous in his own zone. Finishing 5-10 in Norris voting basically means nothing.

I’m not saying OEL was a bad defenseman. He was not. But he also was not a true 1D. We wouldn’t be eating a retained salary slot on him for the better part of a decade if he were. And if only he could live up to more than half of his contract that was more than fair for an actual 1D. Which he was not. And why his contract was a boat anchor.

OEL was a top 10 D for 3 years, long before he signed the big contract, he was an elite 1D. I like Sergi, I think he is a good player, but if he is our 1D and best defensive D, we will always struggle to be an elite team. Just like expecting Hayton to be a 1C on an elite team, it won't work.

Sergi has similar points to Ghost and Chych this year, both are also not great on D which is why all 3 of them are not a 1D on a good team. Durzi and marino are not elite on D either but they will help a ton when they come back, it will take pressure off of Sergi.

 

[Jormungandr]

OEL was a top 10 D for 3 years, long before he signed the big contract, he was an elite 1D. I like Sergi, I think he is a good player, but if he is our 1D and best defensive D, we will always struggle to be an elite team. Just like expecting Hayton to be a 1C on an elite team, it won't work.

Sergi has similar points to Ghost and Chych this year, both are also not great on D which is why all 3 of them are not a 1D on a good team. Durzi and marino are not elite on D either but they will help a ton when they come back, it will take pressure off of Sergi.

OEL was a top 10 D based on what? Your opinion? Where is this list? Everything you said in your first paragraph also pertained to OEL. It was why we always struggled to be an elite team for years. Our talent just wasn’t talented enough. OEL included.

I also don’t know why you keep bring up Ghost and Chychruns point totals being similar like it’s proof he must be the same type of player. You know who also have similar point totals? Hedman and Fox. Two Norris winners.

 

[Arizonatah Coyetis]

Back in the summer of 2023 NHL Network compiled their list of the Top 20 Defensemen. Number 17 is Sergachev. Ahead of Drew Doughty, Brandon Montour, and Shea Theodore.

If Sergachev can be considered the 17th best defenseman in the NHL but still isn't a 1D then something is wrong with either the definition of 1D or the scale used to determine what qualifies as 1D. IMO.

NHL Top Players: Top 20 Defensemen | NHL.com

 

[Llewzaher]

Managements all spouts shit, but I see no reason to fire BA or Bear at this point, unless the rest of the season goes south.

Until we see the Utah Jazz firing everyone, I think,BA and team are in good position

Whether or not BA is satisfied with the coaches remains to be seen… I think,he is

If the team kept going down that spiral where they played good for about half a period of a game, I think changes may have been made … but lately the team seems to be playing well win or lose….. with a few exceptions

Wow still blows my mind how far you guys have come ….

 

[Llewzaher]

It’s interesting to read the Sergachev debate in here. I must be in the minority because I think he’s already better than OEL. OEL is one of those players who, to me, was always massively overrated on these boards. While watching the games I used to text my brother back and fourth with things like “you won’t read about that turnover on hfboards, but they will crucify Yandle for his mistake.” every time he(OEL) made a mistake or boneheaded play, which was often. And sure enough, that’s always exactly how it played out. He lives off the memory of his two 20 goal seasons.

I like Sergachev , he is a work horse, logging tons of minutes, game in and game out…
I do find that at times he fatigues out at the end of the shift, and then hesitates on plays , and the effort drops… I think if we had Durzi, and Marino playing, Sergachev wouldn’t have to play the the monstrous amount of minutes he does ( 2nd in the league , I think).

I hate losing Geekie, …hated it ..but I think we made the correct trade.

 

[Llewzaher]

All three are producing very well in challenging leagues already. All three play a strong physical game that projects well to the NHL. I think all three will be good picks. I like But's trajectory best. Dvorsky's speed MIGHT hold him back. Leonard's size MIGHT hold him back from playing his power game. But has the size, speed, vision, hands and shot all working for him.

Agreed … I wanted Leonard and Benson at the time…. Was pretty impressed with Simashev , after watching his videos the day we drafted him ..

But , Danil But impresses me more and more … I hope he can up his physical game , because a beast that size , who can move that fast with the hands he has can be an intimidating factor ..

I can’t wait to see what the team looks like If our prospects, like Iginla, But, Simashev, Maverick all pan out.

Maverick is super impressive, if he can just keep the penalties down

 

[cobra427]

OEL was a top 10 D based on what? Your opinion? Where is this list? Everything you said in your first paragraph also pertained to OEL. It was why we always struggled to be an elite team for years. Our talent just wasn’t talented enough. OEL included.

I also don’t know why you keep bring up Ghost and Chychruns point totals being similar like it’s proof he must be the same type of player. You know who also have similar point totals? Hedman and Fox. Two Norris winners.

Pretty common knowledge on OEL back then, coyotes not being elite had nothing to do with OEL, he was a our best player and only true elite 1D we had as a team after Teppo, we have had none since, including Sergi. Hedman and Fox are way better on D then Sergi, thats part of why they won the Norris, and also why scoring D that are average on D, like Chych/Yandle/Sergi won't win a Norris, unless they become elite scorers like Karlson.

 

[Jamieh]

Back in the summer of 2023 NHL Network compiled their list of the Top 20 Defensemen. Number 17 is Sergachev. Ahead of Drew Doughty, Brandon Montour, and Shea Theodore.

If Sergachev can be considered the 17th best defenseman in the NHL but still isn't a 1D then something is wrong with either the definition of 1D or the scale used to determine what qualifies as 1D. IMO.

NHL Top Players: Top 20 Defensemen | NHL.com

Shouldn't you use the 24 list to make this point? Or do you believe Burns and Karlsson are both still top 20 as well?

 

[cobra427]

Back in the summer of 2023 NHL Network compiled their list of the Top 20 Defensemen. Number 17 is Sergachev. Ahead of Drew Doughty, Brandon Montour, and Shea Theodore.

If Sergachev can be considered the 17th best defenseman in the NHL but still isn't a 1D then something is wrong with either the definition of 1D or the scale used to determine what qualifies as 1D. IMO.

NHL Top Players: Top 20 Defensemen | NHL.com

This is from august of 2024, Sergi isn't in the top 30. I am not a believer in these lists by the way, unless its GMs making up the list.

High Noon 2024: Ranking the NHL’s 30 best defensemen today

Which blueliners grade out the best in a weighted ranking factoring in the past three seasons?

www.dailyfaceoff.com

 

[Jakey53]

Evan Bouchard was 5th in Norris voting in 2024. Bouchard is horrendous in his own zone. Finishing 5-10 in Norris voting basically means nothing.

I’m not saying OEL was a bad defenseman. He was not. But he also was not a true 1D. We wouldn’t be eating a retained salary slot on him for the better part of a decade if he were. And if only he could live up to more than half of his contract that was more than fair for an actual 1D. Which he was not. And why his contract was a boat anchor.

OEL was definitely a #1D before injuries.

 

[Jakey53]

OEL was a top 10 D for 3 years, long before he signed the big contract, he was an elite 1D. I like Sergi, I think he is a good player, but if he is our 1D and best defensive D, we will always struggle to be an elite team. Just like expecting Hayton to be a 1C on an elite team, it won't work.

Sergi has similar points to Ghost and Chych this year, both are also not great on D which is why all 3 of them are not a 1D on a good team. Durzi and marino are not elite on D either but they will help a ton when they come back, it will take pressure off of Sergi.

You don't have to be the best defensive Dman on your team to be #1D. You are looking for a generational talent to be called a 1D for every team.

 

[Jamieh]

You don't have to be the best defensive Dman on your team to be #1D. You are looking for a generational talent to be called a 1D for every team.

Words have meanings

 

[Jakey53]

Pretty common knowledge on OEL back then, coyotes not being elite had nothing to do with OEL, he was a our best player and only true elite 1D we had as a team after Teppo, we have had none since, including Sergi. Hedman and Fox are way better on D then Sergi, thats part of why they won the Norris, and also why scoring D that are average on D, like Chych/Yandle/Sergi won't win a Norris, unless they become elite scorers like Karlson.

Winning the Norris means you are the best of the best, for that year, by a vote of the members of the Professional Writers Association. Doesn't mean the others are not just as good or better. It's a vote based on a personal view. Some of those members I'm sure have biased towards certain players.

 

[Jakey53]

This is from august of 2024, Sergi isn't in the top 30. I am not a believer in these lists by the way, unless its GMs making up the list.

High Noon 2024: Ranking the NHL’s 30 best defensemen today

Which blueliners grade out the best in a weighted ranking factoring in the past three seasons?

www.dailyfaceoff.com

Do you know who won the Norris last year? None other than Hughes, you know the one who is a shut down, best defensive Dman on his team. Or the year before in none other than Karlsson who doesn't know where his end of the ice is. You don't have to be the #1 defensive Dman on your team to be considered a #1D.

 

[cobra427]

Do you know who won the Norris last year? None other than Hughes, you know the one who is a shut down, best defensive Dman on his team. Or the year before in none other than Karlsson who doesn't know where his end of the ice is. You don't have to be the #1 defensive Dman on your team to be considered a #1D.

Hughs had 92 points and he is better on D then Sergi. If you are an elite scorer, you get a pass for being average on D.

 

[Mangosteen]

14. Mikhail Sergachev, D, UTA. This year

Fantasy hockey top 50 defenseman rankings | NHL.com

Most valuable options at position for standard leagues; new podcast episodes

www.nhl.com

 

[Arizonatah Coyetis]

Shouldn't you use the 24 list to make this point?

I tried. Couldn't find the NHL's top 20 D for 2024. Either way, don't act like I used one from 5 years ago. It's still recent.

Or do you believe Burns and Karlsson are both still top 20 as well?

The topic is still about what qualifies as a 1D. Karlsson and Burns are still being given the most minutes this season with their teams. Still being utilized as 1D even if they've fallen off the top 20 list. The point of the Top 20 list was to show that that Sergachev made the list, is in elite company with all the others, and still doesn't get the recognition.

This is from august of 2024, Sergi isn't in the top 30. I am not a believer in these lists by the way, unless its GMs making up the list.

High Noon 2024: Ranking the NHL’s 30 best defensemen today

Which blueliners grade out the best in a weighted ranking factoring in the past three seasons?

www.dailyfaceoff.com

I at least used an article directly from the NHL where the players were chosen by NHL Network Producers and Analysts. That's another reason I stuck to the 2023 list - I like the source better than the ones I found for 2024. I don't know if Daily Face Off is any more credible than Eklund.