Official 2024-25 Utah HC Season Discussion.

[rt]

IMO, Sergachev is more comparable to OEL than he is to Yandle

and

Gostisbehere is more comparable to Yandle than he is OEL.

Curious what others think...

You’re right. He’s wrong.

I take Sergachev for Moser/Geekie all day long.

Easy.

He plays the excessive amount of minutes because Marino/Durzi are out, that doesn't mean he is great, we don't have anyone behind him. Sergi isn't a great defender, he is average at best, closer to Chych/Yandle on D, not anywhere close to prime OEL. He is an offensive D man, might get 50-60 points this year which is great. He isn't a true #1D because of his defense, Moser is better defensively.

I know everyone here thinks BA is the best GM ever, I don't. He gave up Geekie and Moser, that is a lot. Geekie could be very good in a few years. I would have rather kept Moser/Geekie, and not traded Ghost for a third round pick. We would have the solid D in Moser, scoring of Ghost and upside of Geekie. BAs trades are not all one sided and magical.

This is all nonsense.

 

[cobra427]

So I came across this: Analyzing Shayne Gostisbehere’s 2024 contract

"While Gostisbehere is coming off a great year in Detroit, he was also extremely sheltered at 5-on-5, being used in a more offensive role than any other defender on the team, while also facing the lowest quality of competition (according to Dobber’s player usage chart). So it would be up to Gostisbehere to show he can handle a tougher role with the Hurricanes."

The Player Usage Chart also shows that Ghost is being sheltered heavily again this season in CAR. For their entire careers Sergachev has been put up against much higher quality of competition. By a pretty big margin too according to the statistics - Sergachev is mostly facing the highest quality of competition and Ghost is facing the lowest.

Don't get me wrong, I love Ghost Bear, but he's nowhere close to as well rounded as Sergachev is and the statistics prove it. There's a reason one of them makes an average salary of $3.2M and the other makes $8.5M.

Edit:

Players that are good on defense play on the PK. Ghost's PK minutes are all but non-existent. (AZ was the only team that gave him good minutes on the PK.) This season he has a whopping 4.06 minutes of SH TOI which is the least of every CAR d-man that has played more than 5 games.

Literally everything points to Ghost being below average in his own end and very one dimensional.

Sergi was sheltered behind MCD and Hedman, he isn't a 1D because of his poor D play, I will grant you based on the stats you provided, Sergi is a little better on D then Ghost. Go read the TB board on the trade, it will give you a run down on Sergi: Most like him but say he isn't a top pairing D, closer to Yandle then OEL.

I take Sergachev for Moser/Geekie all day long.

Maybe, I wouldn't take him over Moser/Geekie/Ghost.

 

[cobra427]

1) Not everyone here thinks BA is the “best ever”. They just don’t think he’s bad like you claim he is.

2) Nobody has ever said giving up Geekie or Moser was good either. But even you are hedging your take with saying Geekie “could be” good later on.

There’s always a risk with these trades. So far BA has held his own with them.

I have said I am mixed on BA. He has made some good moves and many I question, the results so far aren't great in year 5. Sure, he/we need more time, we also need more progress too. If we saw his 5th year plan from 5 years ago when he was hired, year 5 would look a lot better in his plan.

 

[Arizonatah Coyetis]

2019-20 season

Sergi was sheltered behind MCD and Hedman, he isn't a 1D because of his poor D play, I will grant you based on the stats you provided, Sergi is a little better on D then Ghost.

Look at the stats. Sergachev hasn't been sheltered bedhind Hedman since the 2019-20 season. In fact, since then Sergachev had face roughly the same quality of competition as Hedman with fewer offensive zone starts on TBL. There were seasons Sergahev was actually facing tougher competition than Hedman was.

2023-24:

2022-23:

2021-22:

 

[Coyotedroppings]

IMO, Sergachev is more comparable to OEL than he is to Yandle

and

Gostisbehere is more comparable to Yandle than he is OEL.

Curious what others think...

I think it’s absurd that you would have to point out that which is so blatantly obvious.

 

[Arizonatah Coyetis]

Go read the TB board on the trade, it will give you a run down on Sergi: Most like him but say he isn't a top pairing D

I did. There's also plenty of TBL fans that said they think Sergachev deserves the chance to see if he can be a top pairing D. Which is the opportunity he's getting in Utah. I'm not disappointed with how he's done.

Edit:

If I had posted what TBL fans on their board say, you'd have responded with "what do you expect them to say? They lost Sergachev!"

 

[cobra427]

I did. There's also plenty of TBL fans that said they think Sergachev deserves the chance to see if he can be a top pairing D. Which is the opportunity he's getting in Utah. I'm not disappointed with how he's done.

Edit:

If I had posted what TBL fans on their board say, you'd have responded with "what do you expect them to say? They lost Sergachev!"

If Sergi was as good or better overall than MCD/Hedman, he wouldn't have been the odd man out. They elected to resign MCD and trade a younger player in Sergi for a reason. Sergi isn't a top pairing D on defense on a good team right now, on offense he sure is though. He's like Yandle and Chych, gets an "A" on offense and a "B" or "C" on D.

 

[Arizonatah Coyetis]

If Sergi was as good or better overall than MCD/Hedman, he wouldn't have been the odd man out. They elected to resign MCD and trade a younger player in Sergi for a reason. Sergi isn't a top pairing D on defense on a good team right now, on offense he sure is though. He's like Yandle and Chych, gets an "A" on offense and a "B" or "C" on D.

"If Sergi was as good or better overall than MCD/Hedman, he wouldn't have been the odd man out."

This means one thing and one thing only... Sergachev didn't have a chance to be a top line D on TBL because they have so much talent. Connor Bedard could be the odd man out on a team like Edmonton because he isn't as "good or better overall" than McDavid and Draisatl. Doesn't mean he isn't wrthy of a spot on the top line somewhere else.

 

[Jakey53]

If Sergi was as good or better overall than MCD/Hedman, he wouldn't have been the odd man out. They elected to resign MCD and trade a younger player in Sergi for a reason. Sergi isn't a top pairing D on defense on a good team right now, on offense he sure is though. He's like Yandle and Chych, gets an "A" on offense and a "B" or "C" on D.

I think Tampa were smart. They didn't give up any assets for MCD, then traded Sergi for a younger, cheaper, good Dman in Moser AND got a young Geekie. Tampa is a better team with MCD AND Moser. Don't forget Tampa was against the cap, and trading Sergi at the time gave them some flexibility. It was a hockey trade and both teams got what they wanted. You don't have to be a defensive Dman to be considered a #1D.

 

[cobra427]

I think Tampa were smart. They didn't give up any assets for MCD, then traded Sergi for a younger, cheaper, good Dman in Moser AND got a young Geekie. Tampa is a better team with MCD AND Moser. Don't forget Tampa was against the cap, and trading Sergi at the time gave them some flexibility. It was a hockey trade and both teams got what they wanted. You don't have to be a defensive Dman to be considered a #1D.

Agree, except your last sentence, it is the exact reason Yandle/Chych weren't ever a 1D. Unless you can score like Karlson and get 80+ points.

 

[cobra427]

"If Sergi was as good or better overall than MCD/Hedman, he wouldn't have been the odd man out."

This means one thing and one thing only... Sergachev didn't have a chance to be a top line D on TBL because they have so much talent. Connor Bedard could be the odd man out on a team like Edmonton because he isn't as "good or better overall" than McDavid and Draisatl. Doesn't mean he isn't wrthy of a spot on the top line somewhere else.

Sergi had the chance but couldn't beat out either because of his lesser D play and worse zone exits/turnovers, even though he is younger. Sergi is not Bedard level, bad comparison.

 

[Arizonatah Coyetis]

Sergi had the chance but couldn't beat out either because of his lesser D play and worse zone exits/turnovers, even though he is younger.

Like I said, "Sergachev didn't have a chance to be a top line D on TBL because they have so much talent."

"Doesn't mean he isn't wrthy of a spot on the top line somewhere else."

Sergi is not Bedard level, bad comparison.

Bedard is only a bad comparison if you completely miss the point. It's not a skill level comparison. It's an example of how even great players could get stuck behind other great players in certain scenarios. I just used an extreme example because I though it would be easier to see what I mean.

 

[Arizonatah Coyetis]

Utah Is Thriving in Ways Coyotes Never Dreamed Of - The Hockey Writers Utah Hockey Club Latest News, Analysis & More

 

[Coyotedroppings]

Utah Is Thriving in Ways Coyotes Never Dreamed Of - The Hockey Writers Utah Hockey Club Latest News, Analysis & More

Ironic how the team had more success at home in the unsuitable 4,500 seat arena than they do in their new home.
Mullett Magic begs to differ.

 

[Canis Latrans]

Sergi had the chance but couldn't beat out either because of his lesser D play and worse zone exits/turnovers, even though he is younger. Sergi is not Bedard level, bad comparison.

Do you think Draisaitl isn't a number one center because the Oilers have McDavid? By that logic Dylan Larkin must be better because he's the top center in Detroit and Draisaitl. I know you don't follow that logic, but your argument is coming across more and more akin to it.

By a basic definition, Sergachev is among the top-32 defensemen in the league and therefore is a number one defenseman. The team didn't have a serious candidate for a number 1 defenseman prior to acquiring him. I think Moser is good, but would put him at 2nd pairing for his peak. He's got a really good all-around game, and putting him on a team that has an established number 1 already will let him really thrive as he gets better matchups. Geekie might turn out well too. I'm sure he'll consistently produce, but Utah gets what's turned out to be a for sure number 1 for several seasons out of this.

 

[Canis Latrans]

Think it's interesting that Crouse/Bjugstad picked up their games once Maccelli is moved elsewhere/out sick. I was under the impression Maccelli had improved his game more in the past few weeks and those two hadn't picked it up yet. Maccelli maybe forcing plays more because he didn't have the options from the other two. Forcing them to simplify their games and just grind and board battle seems to have ignited them.

At this time, it looks like Maccelli is an odd-man out, but I'd rather keep him around. I ultimately foresee the 3rd line morphing into a 2nd 2nd line once more of the prospects develop. Playing with a little more talent might work better for Maccelli and Crouse can drop to the 4th line to play a more straightforward game while being a strong defender. Of course, maybe Crouse just turns it around and they regain their chemistry, who knows.

 

[Arizonatah Coyetis]

Utah gets what's turned out to be a for sure number 1 for several seasons out of this.

And there's value in having Sergachev here to mentor our Russian prospects - to help But and Simashev adjust to life in not only the NHL, but N. America in general and help them to feel less out of place or homesick.

 

[Arizonatah Coyetis]

Armstrong is one of them

Three GM's Seen Scouting the Vancouver Canucks; Trade Speculation Heats Up

 

[cobra427]

Do you think Draisaitl isn't a number one center because the Oilers have McDavid? By that logic Dylan Larkin must be better because he's the top center in Detroit and Draisaitl. I know you don't follow that logic, but your argument is coming across more and more akin to it.

By a basic definition, Sergachev is among the top-32 defensemen in the league and therefore is a number one defenseman. The team didn't have a serious candidate for a number 1 defenseman prior to acquiring him. I think Moser is good, but would put him at 2nd pairing for his peak. He's got a really good all-around game, and putting him on a team that has an established number 1 already will let him really thrive as he gets better matchups. Geekie might turn out well too. I'm sure he'll consistently produce, but Utah gets what's turned out to be a for sure number 1 for several seasons out of this.

On Defense, Sergi isn't top 32, your 1D has to be good on defense unless he gets 80 points like Karlson, Sergi is a 2D. Drai playing behind McDavid doesn't make him a 2C, McDavid is one of the top 20 players ever. Sergi was playing behind a pair of good D but neither was Orr/Lindstorm/Borque etc...

 

[Prestigeworldwide]

Armstrong is one of them

Three GM's Seen Scouting the Vancouver Canucks; Trade Speculation Heats Up

I wouldn't mind JT miller but the length of contract is kind of a bummer. Not sure how good he's gonna be at 36-37...

 

[Jormungandr]

JT Miller turns 32 in two months. That’s a lot of assets to give up for a player that will be too old to play a top role on this team during its supposed cup window.

 

[Jormungandr]

It’s interesting to read the Sergachev debate in here. I must be in the minority because I think he’s already better than OEL. OEL is one of those players who, to me, was always massively overrated on these boards. While watching the games I used to text my brother back and fourth with things like “you won’t read about that turnover on hfboards, but they will crucify Yandle for his mistake.” every time he(OEL) made a mistake or boneheaded play, which was often. And sure enough, that’s always exactly how it played out. He lives off the memory of his two 20 goal seasons.

 

[lanky]

Why would you take But over Dvorsky or Leonard? I liked Dvorsky as well.

All three are producing very well in challenging leagues already. All three play a strong physical game that projects well to the NHL. I think all three will be good picks. I like But's trajectory best. Dvorsky's speed MIGHT hold him back. Leonard's size MIGHT hold him back from playing his power game. But has the size, speed, vision, hands and shot all working for him.

 

[Jakey53]

Think it's interesting that Crouse/Bjugstad picked up their games once Maccelli is moved elsewhere/out sick. I was under the impression Maccelli had improved his game more in the past few weeks and those two hadn't picked it up yet. Maccelli maybe forcing plays more because he didn't have the options from the other two. Forcing them to simplify their games and just grind and board battle seems to have ignited them.

At this time, it looks like Maccelli is an odd-man out, but I'd rather keep him around. I ultimately foresee the 3rd line morphing into a 2nd 2nd line once more of the prospects develop. Playing with a little more talent might work better for Maccelli and Crouse can drop to the 4th line to play a more straightforward game while being a strong defender. Of course, maybe Crouse just turns it around and they regain their chemistry, who knows.

Bjugstad, Crouse and Maccelli were Utah's best line many nights last year. They know each other well. Hopefully they can find that magic they had last year.

 

[Jakey53]

It’s interesting to read the Sergachev debate in here. I must be in the minority because I think he’s already better than OEL. OEL is one of those players who, to me, was always massively overrated on these boards. While watching the games I used to text my brother back and fourth with things like “you won’t read about that turnover on hfboards, but they will crucify Yandle for his mistake.” every time he(OEL) made a mistake or boneheaded play, which was often. And sure enough, that’s always exactly how it played out. He lives off the memory of his two 20 goal seasons.

I don't think OEL was overrated, and if OEL played for a big market team he would have been much more talked about. OEL was better on the D side of things where Sergachev is better on the offensive side of things. Two different players, but two players I would take on my team.