Official 2024-25 Utah HC Season Discussion.

[Amazing Kreiderman]

Hey everyone.

I hope this is the right spot to ask but I am flying to Denver and Salt Lake City in a few weeks to see the Rangers.

Is it possible to watch the warm-ups at ice level? Or do you need a ticket to those sections to get access there for warm-ups?

 

[Arizonatah Coyetis]

he has been more or less injury free and is playing damn good hockey. I would love to have that mess back.

Sure, so would I. But he was a mess with the Coyotes for the 7 seasons he was here and that's all I'm referring to. I guess that's just how it goes sometimes. Wasn't meant to be.

I think it's impressive that BA was able to get a high first round pick and two seconds for the version of Chychrun who was on the IR over 30% of the time since joining the NHL while OTT only got Nick Jensen and a third for the version of him that played a complete 82 game season without injury (his first since joining the NHL) and had 41 points in 82. He should've gone up in value that's why OTT got peanuts in comparison to what they paid. (Maybe time was more valuable than return in this case )

Edit: And he didn't want to be here through the rebuild, which is fine, but no GM is going to change or modify their plans just to keep him happy. That's why BA met with him and said hey, this is what we're doing. Let us know if you don't want to be a part of it. I think both parties handled that situation with total class.

Edit x2: Hope Utah wins a cup before he does

 

[Schemp]

Are we going to see Ingram this season?
Vejmelka could of gotten UtHC another 1st
An influx of RHDs between the 1/2-way point (Jan 18) and the Febuary break (Feb 8), MavLam, Durzi, & Marino?
Crouse in a hockey trade? Kesselring? Valimaki, Kolyachonok?

Ottawa traded Chych because of how their team was constructed and time left on his contract. Since Chych left the Coyotes he has been more or less injury free and is playing damn good hockey. I would love to have that mess back.

Most of his injuries were due to overtraining in his workouts. Once he started cutting back on pushing himself, the frequency of injuries subsided.

 

[cobra427]

It's hard to disagree with your time value of money argument as it pertains to player development / timing (thx for articulating it), but it really depends on what Chychrun would've returned during that year or so we were trying to trade him. If I remember right (not sure), Columbus would've traded for him, but when he was like, 'hey I'm not going to re-sign with CBJ' they were out. I don't remember any other deals being particularly close but maybe mis-remembering.

To continue with your example (which definitely does apply to the point you made), what if Chychrun's initial offers were 30K instead of 45k? I'm not saying they were, I'm just saying we don't know what they were.

***

From my point of view, BA hit an absolute home run with the OEL trade, maybe the best trade of the last decade, I can't think of a more lopsided one in recent memory (Brassard / Zibanejad was about the same tier, that was back in 2016). Chychrun went for a little less than what I was hoping for (was hoping for a late top-10 draft pick, we got 12th), and imo we were honestly lucky to get even that -- Ottawa was 2 points out of a playoff spot at the deadline (tied with FLA with fewer GP), they didn't make a move for a backup goalie (Quick was very available) and then promptly shit the bed. Meanwhile, Florida got hot and then made the SCF, not saying Ottawa would've made the SCF but they could've and probably should've made playoffs that year.

Anyway unless we know the earlier offers for Chych, we can't really say. I suspect (but don't know for certain) the market might not have been there because the guy was getting injured all the time. Dorion got desperate and made a fair offer, Benning was desperate and made an absolutely stupid offer, to continue with finance analogies BA tried to time the market and imo mostly succeeded, he probably did better than he would've had he tried to dollar cost average. Especially with OEL (not sure Chychrun).

****

More importantly, being a couple years 'behind' in the rebuild to me doesn't matter as much because it gives Guenther, Cooley, Simashev, But etc more time to develop. I do think we can probably use another top 6 center and top 4 D, but if Simashev hits, our D will be built around Serg, Simashev and a more developed / better verion of Lam, not to mention Marino and Durzi. And / or maybe Kesselring and / or Koly rounding out that bottom pair. That's not too bad. Especially if Sima ends up a true #1 which we won't know anyway for at least a few years, imo if Simashev becomes a Norris contender that's a cup contending D-corps. So waiting a few more years is in some sense necessary I think

We don't know the earlier offers if any for Chych or OEL. Neither player was better or worse, their values did not change much a year later. The market is pretty well set for vet NHL players, you know what you are getting and what you have to give up. I don't think BA got a lot more for either player by waiting so long, maybe a little more. At the time of a trade, neither GM got fleeced, you get market value, is what it is at the time. 90 days is plenty to determine market value, maybe 6 months, 12-18 months is way too much time if you are going to trade a player, which BA clearly was in the case of Chych/OEL.

Lam/Simichev will take a long time to develop as solid top 2-4 NHL Dmen, it might be 5 more years for that to happen, if it happens. I am hopeful when Durzi/Marino are back that is solidified our D core and we are mid pack versus bottom 10 like we are now.

 

[Arizonatah Coyetis]

I don't think BA got a lot more for either player by waiting so long, maybe a little more.

Share with us what you would have accepted from either BOS or VAN in 2020 instead of the 2021 9th OA (Dylan Guenther.) What does the trade look like on your mind?

Obviously, it has to be picks and prospects and make sense for a rebuild. And by your standards contribute to our NHL roster faster than Guenther. Show us that we're not missing out on much by trading him sooner and that your not overvaluing time. Show us how the team would've been better off. Show us... something that supports what you're sayin'.

I really don't believe you can with what they had to offer at that time. I don't think it was about waiting for the value to increase. It was waiting until the buyers had the currency to meet the value in a satisfactory way.

 

[PainForShane]

Share with us what you would have accepted from either BOS or VAN in 2020 instead of the 2021 9th OA (Dylan Guenther.) What does the trade look like on your mind?

Obviously, it has to be picks and prospects and make sense for a rebuild. And by your standards contribute to our NHL roster faster than Guenther. Show us that we're not missing out on much by trading him sooner and that your not overvaluing time. Show us how the team would've been better off. Show us... something that supports what you're sayin'.

I really don't believe you can with what they had to offer at that time. I don't think it was about waiting for the value to increase. It was waiting until the buyers had the currency to meet the value in a satisfactory way.

Yep. Which includes something about waiting for the other GMs to get desperate.

@cobra427
Imo the return we got for OEL was insane -- with OEL's contract I thought it would cost at least a 2nd to get rid of him, and instead we got a first coming back the other way -- a good first, in a hyped deep draft. Yes we sent Garland the other way and took on some expiring bad contracts... but like, keep in mind OEL's currently signed for 3.5m AAV (slight underpay imo) but before that he was 8.25 AAV with a much lower cap. The OEL deal w Vancouver was an absolute masterstroke I don't think there's really any other way to look at it. ESPECIALLY because he had a full no move. No way we could've expected anyone as good as Guenther, expecting more in the OEL deal is just not realistic.

BA got value for Chychrun as well, Ottawa later traded him to Washington for Nick Jensen and a 3rd... which is a lot less than the pick package BA got (12th OA and 2 2nds). Part of that was that was Ottawa's cap situation, but the fact is that AZ got a lot more for Chych than Ottawa did, and Chychrun played had good stats while average just under 22:30 a game in OTT.

Also as an aside, Sakic waited forever to trade Duchene, he got an absolute haul. To a lesser extent same thing with Tampa and Jonathan Drouin. Anyway it's not the worst idea to hold onto your players if needed, I think Bill did extremely well with OEL in particular and I don't think Chychrun was handled too badly either

 

[Mangosteen]

Has everyone forgotten about Garland? He’s been playing great. He had a huge impact on the OEL trade. Also till Gunner has a ring OEL is better, and Garland, dam he was my Favorita Yote!,

 

[Heldig]

Has everyone forgotten about Garland? He’s been playing great. He had a huge impact on the OEL trade. Also till Gunner has a ring OEL is better, and Garland, dam he was my Favorita Yote!,

Agree that losing Garland was significant. Trade was not that lopsided other than getting out of that contract.

 

[PainForShane]

Agree that losing Garland was significant. Trade was not that lopsided other than getting out of that contract.

Was BA going to re-sign Garland though? At the time he was an RFA with Arb rights.

I remember reading multiple places that the two sides were pretty far apart in salary negotiations specifically with respect to term. This is the best I could find on google:

No Progress In Contract Talks For Conor Garland

There have been no discussions on a new deal for Coyotes pending RFA winger Conor Garland in more than a month.

www.prohockeyrumors.com

Seravalli Trade Targets: 20 names in play in the Summer of Jack

Giddy up. The Summer of Jack Eichel is upon us. And the Eichel sweepstakes may just be the appetizer in...

www.dailyfaceoff.com

Love Connor Garland as a player as well, but I remember thinking it was likely we weren't going to sign him long term. If anyone else remembers better please jump in

 

[Heldig]

Was BA going to re-sign Garland though? At the time he was an RFA with Arb rights.

I remember reading multiple places that the two sides were pretty far apart in salary negotiations specifically with respect to term. This is the best I could find on google:

No Progress In Contract Talks For Conor Garland

There have been no discussions on a new deal for Coyotes pending RFA winger Conor Garland in more than a month.

www.prohockeyrumors.com

Seravalli Trade Targets: 20 names in play in the Summer of Jack

Giddy up. The Summer of Jack Eichel is upon us. And the Eichel sweepstakes may just be the appetizer in...

www.dailyfaceoff.com

Love Connor Garland as a player as well, but I remember thinking it was likely we weren't going to sign him long term. If anyone else remembers better please jump in

Could be.

 

[cobra427]

Sure, so would I. But he was a mess with the Coyotes for the 7 seasons he was here and that's all I'm referring to. I guess that's just how it goes sometimes. Wasn't meant to be.

I think it's impressive that BA was able to get a high first round pick and two seconds for the version of Chychrun who was on the IR over 30% of the time since joining the NHL while OTT only got Nick Jensen and a third for the version of him that played a complete 82 game season without injury (his first since joining the NHL) and had 41 points in 82. He should've gone up in value that's why OTT got peanuts in comparison to what they paid. (Maybe time was more valuable than return in this case )

Edit: And he didn't want to be here through the rebuild, which is fine, but no GM is going to change or modify their plans just to keep him happy. That's why BA met with him and said hey, this is what we're doing. Let us know if you don't want to be a part of it. I think both parties handled that situation with total class.

Edit x2: Hope Utah wins a cup before he does

Chych did want to be here at first when BA initially laid out his plan of keeping young players and rebuilding with Chych being the key player to build around. Then BA traded DVO, and I think Chych realized that BA might trade more young players, which he did with Garland, stringing out the rebuild. That is when Chych went back to BA and said, I want out. BA then took 18 months to trade him.

 

[cobra427]

Has everyone forgotten about Garland? He’s been playing great. He had a huge impact on the OEL trade. Also till Gunner has a ring OEL is better, and Garland, dam he was my Favorita Yote!,

Chych, Garland and OEL are all playing well. BA didn't fleece anyone, he got market value and the market value didn't suddenly change a year later. OEL and Chych were the same players, Garland as well, all though he was a throw in to get it done.

 

[cobra427]

Share with us what you would have accepted from either BOS or VAN in 2020 instead of the 2021 9th OA (Dylan Guenther.) What does the trade look like on your mind?

Obviously, it has to be picks and prospects and make sense for a rebuild. And by your standards contribute to our NHL roster faster than Guenther. Show us that we're not missing out on much by trading him sooner and that your not overvaluing time. Show us how the team would've been better off. Show us... something that supports what you're sayin'.

I really don't believe you can with what they had to offer at that time. I don't think it was about waiting for the value to increase. It was waiting until the buyers had the currency to meet the value in a satisfactory way.

None of us know what was offered, I am not disputing the returns, it was market value at the time for both sides. It doesn't take 18 months of searching to find market value, neither OEL or Chych increased his value a year or two later.

BA was asking for a lot more for both players for over 12 months, he finally settled on the return he got, one that I think he could have gotten a year earlier. BA didn't outsmart anyone.

 

[Arizonatah Coyetis]

None of us know what was offered, I am not disputing the returns, it was market value at the time for both sides. It doesn't take 18 months of searching to find market value, neither OEL or Chych increased his value a year or two later.

I'm not asking about what was offered. Like you said, none of us know. But we do know what assets both teams had to use in a trade.

Which of VAN's assets should/could BA have taken instead of the 2021 9th OA that does everything you say it would. (Has comparable value, works out as well for the team as Guenther has to date, and also speeds up the rebuild.) As I pointed out BOS and VAN's first rounders in 2020 were late firsts. So the best they could possibly offer (other than the 2021 9th OA) would have to be some combination of a late first and some other assets.

So, again, what other assets did they have in 2020 that you'd add to their late first that makes the return as good as Dylan Guenther and actually speeds up the rebuild? You have claimed it exists for a long time and hold it against BA as a mistake. I think it's time to prove it!

BA was asking for a lot more for both players for over 12 months, he finally settled on the return he got, one that I think he could have gotten a year earlier.

You're making stuff up again. You keep saying "none of us knows what was offered."

Continue to ignore the actual facts (verifiable reasons) that the trades both took so long so you can act like your smarter than BA is. I won't waste my time repeating them.

BA didn't outsmart anyone.

It's not about outsmarting. It's about getting the best return. No matter how long it takes.

Edit: VAN traded their 2020 1st rounder (20th OA) to TBL on 6-22-19 who then flipped it to NJ and they picked Shakir Mukhamadullin with it. VAN didn't actually have a 2020 1st rounder to trade when the OEL deal was worked out.

 

[Arizonatah Coyetis]

Chych did want to be here at first when BA initially laid out his plan of keeping young players and rebuilding with Chych being the key player to build around. Then BA traded DVO, and I think Chych realized that BA might trade more young players, which he did with Garland, stringing out the rebuild. That is when Chych went back to BA and said, I want out. BA then took 18 months to trade him.

So he took BA up on his offer to trade him if he didn't want to stick around for the rebuild? Where's the conspiracy? You don't know what he said to Chychrun either and changing his mind doesn't mean that he was misled by BA. Just more made up stuff to discredit BA.

 

[Coyotedroppings]

None of us know what was offered, I am not disputing the returns, it was market value at the time for both sides. It doesn't take 18 months of searching to find market value, neither OEL or Chych increased his value a year or two later.

BA was asking for a lot more for both players for over 12 months, he finally settled on the return he got, one that I think he could have gotten a year earlier. BA didn't outsmart anyone.

If we don’t know what was offered we can’t determine what market value was at that time, nor can we say that he was asking too much, simply because a trade wasn’t consummated. It is also possible that the market was so soft that any offers that may have been made, simply weren’t palatable.

Not sure why you keep carrying on about this, we’ve all known your take for what now seems an eternity, I know I have and will most likely take your stance to the grave.

 

[Arizonatah Coyetis]

Chych, Garland and OEL are all playing well. BA didn't fleece anyone

VAN had to buy out OEL because they couldn't find someone willing to take him in a trade and is paying him over $19M in a buyout to play somewhere else. Got nothing in return for him. We thank Jim Benning not only for giving us the pick that nabbed Guenther, but for being the one taking the big loss on OEL's contract too. How he's played for FLA or TOR now does nothing to make the deal look any better for VAN. Heck, FLA should probably thank Benning too lol.

 

[TheLegend]

Gunther already > Garland.

Garland wasn’t a 200ft player. Gunther is and has a better shot.

 

[Dirty Old Man]

Hey everyone.

I hope this is the right spot to ask but I am flying to Denver and Salt Lake City in a few weeks to see the Rangers.

Is it possible to watch the warm-ups at ice level? Or do you need a ticket to those sections to get access there for warm-ups?

After seeing you get ignored all day....

It was a good guess. The right spot to ask would be in a sticky "Visitors to Utah, Check Here!" thread (like all the other boards)...but since we're all a bunch of Arizona people, no one knows first hand anything about the Delta Center and that visitor thread does not yet exist.

If HF ever gets any frequent Utah-based posters/STHs *cough*, maybe you'll have a good source.

Based on my experience at every NHL arena, except Utah (and Winnipeg), it probably is fine to watch warm-ups at ice level, but sometimes you get an overly vigilant usher. YMMV, have fun,

(Denver, I've been 3 times but don't ever remember trying to get down low for pre-game)

 

[rt]

Ottawa traded Chych because of how their team was constructed and time left on his contract.

This is complete nonsense. They traded him for garbage.

Hey everyone.

I hope this is the right spot to ask but I am flying to Denver and Salt Lake City in a few weeks to see the Rangers.

Is it possible to watch the warm-ups at ice level? Or do you need a ticket to those sections to get access there for warm-ups?

The largest group of Utah HC fans on the internet is here:

discord.cleanhitshockey.com

There aren’t very many (maybe one or maybe none) Utah resident fans on HF.

 

[TheLegend]

There aren’t very many (maybe one or maybe none) Utah resident fans on HF.

.... yet.

 

[PainForShane]

Hey everyone.

I hope this is the right spot to ask but I am flying to Denver and Salt Lake City in a few weeks to see the Rangers.

Is it possible to watch the warm-ups at ice level? Or do you need a ticket to those sections to get access there for warm-ups?

Hey for some reason I missed this before. I'd ask your question on Reddit (Utah_Hockey). That sub has over 4,000 members, it's an active community. As a group they're pretty helpful and more importantly are happy and nice. Sorry we weren't able to help!

EDIT: After re-reading your question, I think I can probably answer it here -- I'd be shocked if you need an additional ticket to see warmups at ice level. From experience in a few other arenas, it's pretty common for ppl to do this, and no one ever cares. Just tell the usher what you're doing beforehand and say thx on your way back up. Have fun at the game!

 

[Jakey53]

This is complete nonsense. They traded him for garbage.


The largest group of Utah HC fans on the internet is here:

discord.cleanhitshockey.com

There aren’t very many (maybe one or maybe none) Utah resident fans on HF.

I said WHY they traded Chych, not what the return was.

 

[TheLegend]

I said WHY they traded Chych, not what the return was.

Why is simple..... Chychun did not want to go through another rebuild.

When BA came on he talked to every player on the roster then about what is plans were. Chychrun was the only player who wanted to opt out of it.

The delay was caused by him getting hurt during one of his torture chamber off-season workouts.

 

[Jakey53]

Why is simple..... Chychun did not want to go through another rebuild.

When BA came on he talked to every player on the roster then about what is plans were. Chychrun was the only player who wanted to opt out of it.

The delay was caused by him getting hurt during one of his torture chamber off-season workouts.

We were talking about Ottawa trading Chych, which had nothing to do with Chych. Ottawa had too many LD and Chych was the easiest to move because of contract.