Speculation: Off-Season 2013 - Part II

[Yzlamic Preacher*]

http://sportsrants.com/nhl/2013/08/...ng/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

This lovely piece of work. Really shouldn't give it the time of day but its August. What else is there to do?

That woman is an idiot.

 

[Lord Stan 2020]

Well im the guy whom says we can earn a playoff spot yet in what she said agree and disagree.

I am not as high on jones as others. I like drouin way more a TON more.

I do say we need to add two D though and as each day moves forward the more I worry. Brewer and malone scare me to be honest we will have injuries do not think we have people ready or deserving at all after barberio whom to me still leaves a ton to be desired.

Am hoping for two moves still to shore up the d and get more gritty and physical and just have guys whom can skate well still etc..

I hope we sign say obryne out of toronto for 600-800k or another guy whom hits waivers etc..

We need two guys though one whom is really a top four and another whom can spell minutes and projects to that.

Than will be happy until that time I am worried.

 

[newham89]

That woman is an idiot.

Correct. I worry that people will share her anti-Yzerman sentiment and put pressure on Vinik to remove him before his job is complete. That would be foolish

 

[Lord Stan 2020]

Correct. I worry that people will share her anti-Yzerman sentiment and put pressure on Vinik to remove him before his job is complete. That would be foolish

Well looking at detroit to fit team around stevie using what I think is same game plan that stevie has used so far I see a lot of movement over the next three years in trades etc..

Think he is gonna get people whom he sees as expendable the conachers cause have others whom are just as good etc... coming to make the necessary moves.

Also think he has kicked a lot around and just asking prices are too high so is sitting tight and still figure we make one move after camp. Grab a defender on waivers on cheap whom can play 3-4 but will put to 5-6 and be an extra body.

Still say salo is done next year with us and we will ship brewer and malone at some point. So need 2-3 moves sometime before next year unless someone socks and proves is ready and major upgrade on what I see on D in minors.

 

[HoseEmDown]

Well im the guy whom says we can earn a playoff spot yet in what she said agree and disagree.

I am not as high on jones as others. I like drouin way more a TON more.

I do say we need to add two D though and as each day moves forward the more I worry. Brewer and malone scare me to be honest we will have injuries do not think we have people ready or deserving at all after barberio whom to me still leaves a ton to be desired.

Am hoping for two moves still to shore up the d and get more gritty and physical and just have guys whom can skate well still etc..

I hope we sign say obryne out of toronto for 600-800k or another guy whom hits waivers etc..

We need two guys though one whom is really a top four and another whom can spell minutes and projects to that.

Than will be happy until that time I am worried.

Why do we need two D and where are they gonna play? I don't see us making a move for a first line RHD to play along side Hedman which is all we really need. Salo had a really good first season and I see him doing the same next year, he's our best option for our 2 spot. Carle is locked into the 3 spot for the next several years. I see Gudas getting the spot at 4 alongside Carle and hopefully they can form a great middle pairing. Brewer slides to the 5 where he belongs but is still good enough to play the 4 if needed. Aulie is a big physical 6, we'd lose mobility on the bottom pair with the two but Brewer plays a good positional game. Taormina should be the 7 who adds a PMD to play with either Brewer some nights. Barberio stays in the A early to regain his 2012 form. O'Bryne is garbage who we have no need for and will not take any of the 6 spots. I see us picking up someone off waivers to add insurance but I believe our D is good enough to be competitive.

 

[MattM92]

I wrote up a comment picking her article apart but for some reason it isn't showing. My first draft was pretty harsh so I eased up a bit before publishing my comment it's not her fault she's stupid, she got it from her parents.

 

[garmonbozia]

http://sportsrants.com/nhl/2013/08/...ng/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

This lovely piece of work. Really shouldn't give it the time of day but its August. What else is there to do?

I agree with the premise that this offseason is way too quiet in relation to how bad we were, but, disagree with most of her sub-points why.

1. Boucher -> Cooper. Gave Yzerman a free evaluation of Cooper at the NHL level. Allowed him to avoid the risk of losing him in the more competitive environment of the offseason coaching carousel. Cooper a better decision than bringing Torts back, even in retrospect. Only other possible option I would have liked more might have been Tippett, but he re-upped in Phoenix pretty quick.

2. Draft - Jones filled a specific need, even if not immediately. Drouin more overall talent. Can't fault the decision even if I would have done it the other way around. Agree with her that we could have taken a chance somewhere else in the draft on best defenseman available. I know they view Sustr as the D-man they didn't bother drafting..but still.

3. Lecavalier -> Filppula - Disagree that it had to be done this offseason, but, fine, it's done, time to move on. But to turn around and sink 70% of the salary/caphit right back into Filppula seems foolish. Yeah, Flip is talented and not overpaid by too much, but, Yzerman paid Day 1 price for something he shouldn't have needed in the 1st place. If we were bound to letting Vinny go I would have preferred letting TyJo run with the 2C spot and spending half Filppula's money on a 3/4C later in free agency for half as long. If our only significant offseason move is ditching our declining franchise icon to overpay his lesser talented replacement...it sucks.

4. Defensemen signings - All fine and expected lower impact moves bringing very little change or apparent improvement to what is a glaring weakness. Where is the accountability for sucking? Where is the depth or quantity to foster honest competition and force some of our weaker links to have to earn their spots? Where is even a single move of quality that knocks a bunch of them down a deserved spot on the depth chart? To just ignore the issue and hope Barberio can fill the MAB/Lee weakest link role is folly. If we're picking top 5 next year our defense, unchanged from currently, is probably why.

5. Goalies - Fine playing wait and see with Bishop and Lindback. We spent too many assets bringing them in to not give them fair shakes at seizing their spots. Plus, if they both suck we'll just pin it all on Frantz Jean and patiently bide our time waiting on Vasilevski.


I'm not calling for Yzerman's head. He did great getting us competitive out of the gate and rebuilding the farm over time. I really only object to the Downie and Lecavalier decisions so far, everything else I can live with if we get back on the track of lasting success. I do think the financial gravity of the Vinny decision adds pressure on Yzerman. He might get one more free pass through a bad season, unlikely two more though...and certainly not if they come at the cost of Marty signing elsewhere and/or Stamkos not renegotiating an extension.

 

[IdealisticSniper]

I agree with the premise that this offseason is way too quiet in relation to how bad we were, but, disagree with most of her sub-points why.

1. Boucher -> Cooper. Gave Yzerman a free evaluation of Cooper at the NHL level. Allowed him to avoid the risk of losing him in the more competitive environment of the offseason coaching carousel. Cooper a better decision than bringing Torts back, even in retrospect. Only other possible option I would have liked more might have been Tippett, but he re-upped in Phoenix pretty quick.

2. Draft - Jones filled a specific need, even if not immediately. Drouin more overall talent. Can't fault the decision even if I would have done it the other way around. Agree with her that we could have taken a chance somewhere else in the draft on best defenseman available. I know they view Sustr as the D-man they didn't bother drafting..but still.

3. Lecavalier -> Filppula - Disagree that it had to be done this offseason, but, fine, it's done, time to move on. But to turn around and sink 70% of the salary/caphit right back into Filppula seems foolish. Yeah, Flip is talented and not overpaid by too much, but, Yzerman paid Day 1 price for something he shouldn't have needed in the 1st place. If we were bound to letting Vinny go I would have preferred letting TyJo run with the 2C spot and spending half Filppula's money on a 3/4C later in free agency for half as long. If our only significant offseason move is ditching our declining franchise icon to overpay his lesser talented replacement...it sucks.

4. Defensemen signings - All fine and expected lower impact moves bringing very little change or apparent improvement to what is a glaring weakness. Where is the accountability for sucking? Where is the depth or quantity to foster honest competition and force some of our weaker links to have to earn their spots? Where is even a single move of quality that knocks a bunch of them down a deserved spot on the depth chart? To just ignore the issue and hope Barberio can fill the MAB/Lee weakest link role is folly. If we're picking top 5 next year our defense, unchanged from currently, is probably why.

5. Goalies - Fine playing wait and see with Bishop and Lindback. We spent too many assets bringing them in to not give them fair shakes at seizing their spots. Plus, if they both suck we'll just pin it all on Frantz Jean and patiently bide our time waiting on Vasilevski.


I'm not calling for Yzerman's head. He did great getting us competitive out of the gate and rebuilding the farm over time. I really only object to the Downie and Lecavalier decisions so far, everything else I can live with if we get back on the track of lasting success. I do think the financial gravity of the Vinny decision adds pressure on Yzerman. He might get one more free pass through a bad season, unlikely two more though...and certainly not if they come at the cost of Marty signing elsewhere and/or Stamkos not renegotiating an extension.

Biggest misnomer.

People have to realize it wasnt about Vinnys cap hit this year or next, or the one after that. It was about the cap hit 5+ years from now, as well as the cap recapture penalties we would have had if he retired before the end of the deal. Vinnys overall contract and the new CBA rules are what made this happen. Not just his current yearly cap hit. Huge difference.

 

[MattM92]

Biggest misnomer.

People have to realize it wasnt about Vinnys cap hit this year or next, or the one after that. It was about the cap hit 5+ years from now, as well as the cap recapture penalties we would have had if he retired before the end of the deal. Vinnys overall contract and the new CBA rules are what made this happen. Not just his current yearly cap hit. Huge difference.

Exactly this

 

[Lord Stan 2020]

Why do we need two D and where are they gonna play? I don't see us making a move for a first line RHD to play along side Hedman which is all we really need. Salo had a really good first season and I see him doing the same next year, he's our best option for our 2 spot. Carle is locked into the 3 spot for the next several years. I see Gudas getting the spot at 4 alongside Carle and hopefully they can form a great middle pairing. Brewer slides to the 5 where he belongs but is still good enough to play the 4 if needed. Aulie is a big physical 6, we'd lose mobility on the bottom pair with the two but Brewer plays a good positional game. Taormina should be the 7 who adds a PMD to play with either Brewer some nights. Barberio stays in the A early to regain his 2012 form. O'Bryne is garbage who we have no need for and will not take any of the 6 spots. I see us picking up someone off waivers to add insurance but I believe our D is good enough to be competitive.

Brewer plays a good positional game? I dont even want to go there Obyrne is garbage. Salo had a really good first season? AUlie is a big physical? What did you watch last year.

You dont know our league or are in serious denial in my opinion. OUR D is good enough to be competitive how did that work out last year? WE ARE NOW IN MORE COMPETITIVE LEAGUE which is seriously and I am saying seriously MORE PHYSICAL.

I think COOPER is an awesome coach and huge upgrade from last season. That being said he is only as good as the clay he has to work with.

Brewer cant skate out of his own way. He hits if can skate to the place lol. Yet he is not the brewer of three years ago. Salo is 37 odds are we are gonna have injuries at times to him and others. Taormina lol wont even go there.

When Toronto and boston come into town and manhandle us let me know what you think. We need some bigger bodies. Guess you think labrie with his 5-10 minutes or crombeen with his 5 minutes will alleviate that situation. That is giving them both the time they will get when are in penalty boxes for fighting lol.

Your thoughts to me seem so ridiculous.. Cooper likes to run 7 D. Brewer I am betting is one step slower than the guy we watched last year whom was atrocious. If we can ship him at one point for a seventh round pick I will be happy with his contract I doubt he is moveable so I hope someone goes to arbitration so if we buy out malone can buy brewer also like the toronto thing with Lilies.

Korobov and Sustr I have no doubts can be solid contributors IN TIME koekkoek I am super high on. They need work and time and are not ready to solve us being one of worst defensive teams in hockey.

Barberio is simply an offensive defensemen and to me NOTHING SPECIAL he makes STUPID risks and chances at times and if is faced with physically gifted guys he leaves a TON not a little A TON to be desired. He plays a good positional game? Guess you missed him playing a few guys out of grand rapids? He was out of league on guys whom are not gonna make it past 3rd line this year? I am trying to be fair to him. I get that was player of year in AHL on defense two years ago but that was based on his plus minus and scoring more than anything.

He needs serious work still IMHO. I see him being a power play specialist whom never cuts it into the top four. If he does I feel for the team that plays him. He needs to play more physical.

He is good at power play he is good at getting puck out quickly on own end. Yet on defense? Nothing even close to special.

Taormina is 5'9 like 180 as small as marty great defensemen? honestly everything I said about barberio goes for him yet he is awesome skater too bad not a forward and is great at distributing puck and leading a charge up ice because his skating is very fast and good. Yet defensively? WOW.

Is kinda like debate other day had about trading for another guy from rangers whom said we didnt need any more centers we had mike angelidis if had injuries or major problems.

Yep a lifer ahl guy is great idea whom is challenged to say the least for scoring.

We seriously need two D if we want to develop kids at right rates. One guy whom can do 3-4 if injuries happen but plays 5-6 and is shut down solid a little offense doesnt need to be great at that but PHYSICAL and Gritty and will clear the net and can CLEAR the net lol. Which if you think carle or barberio are that guy so be it we see the game differently.

Next we need a 3-4 and is hopefully RH D whom has all the attributes I just named but has been a top four already and is ready to take over.

I love stevie I love tampa but wow we could be in serious trouble.

Maybe they come up and shock the world and whole thing changes but what do I see?

We added drouin and valtteri fipulla lost vinny from a team which picked THIRD last year. A team that was a laughing stock defensively. Which we handled nothing on changing that?

I believe in COOPER but NO ONE IS A MIRACLE WORKER. Maybe have too much helen keller going on.

 

[Lord Stan 2020]

I agree with the premise that this offseason is way too quiet in relation to how bad we were, but, disagree with most of her sub-points why.

Agreed

1. Boucher -> Cooper. Gave Yzerman a free evaluation of Cooper at the NHL level. Allowed him to avoid the risk of losing him in the more competitive environment of the offseason coaching carousel. Cooper a better decision than bringing Torts back, even in retrospect. Only other possible option I would have liked more might have been Tippett, but he re-upped in Phoenix pretty quick.

I like that we brought in cooper and believe in cooper. Torts might have worked but cooper has first hand knowledge of most of the kids so was good move. Give him his shot if we had waited we might have lost him than whom knows who we have at this point?

2. Draft - Jones filled a specific need, even if not immediately. Drouin more overall talent. Can't fault the decision even if I would have done it the other way around. Agree with her that we could have taken a chance somewhere else in the draft on best defenseman available. I know they view Sustr as the D-man they didn't bother drafting..but still.

I think Jones is seriously overhyped he doesnt play physical D and maybe that changes but with his size and skill he could be great and I dont see him at that. To me he is not OEL not even close. Time will tell. Drouin might be ELITE and we need someone to take over for marty at one point. So to get a kinda clone was a great move.

3. Lecavalier -> Filppula - Disagree that it had to be done this offseason, but, fine, it's done, time to move on. But to turn around and sink 70% of the salary/caphit right back into Filppula seems foolish. Yeah, Flip is talented and not overpaid by too much, but, Yzerman paid Day 1 price for something he shouldn't have needed in the 1st place. If we were bound to letting Vinny go I would have preferred letting TyJo run with the 2C spot and spending half Filppula's money on a 3/4C later in free agency for half as long. If our only significant offseason move is ditching our declining franchise icon to overpay his lesser talented replacement...it sucks.

Well new CBA had something about the money difference year one year two and was a lot like 600k a year and that is like another 6 million to vinny which he already had gotten enough. I am detroit fan LOVE fippula think will be great for kids is really strong 5-5 and really strong on boards defense at own end etc.. Something we lack great penalty killers etc.. is others in detroit whom say he is not but I see him as great at penalty kill. Now all that being said was overpaid 5 million or one year probably. He was fourth best center available and is not vinny.

4. Defensemen signings - All fine and expected lower impact moves bringing very little change or apparent improvement to what is a glaring weakness. Where is the accountability for sucking? Where is the depth or quantity to foster honest competition and force some of our weaker links to have to earn their spots? Where is even a single move of quality that knocks a bunch of them down a deserved spot on the depth chart? To just ignore the issue and hope Barberio can fill the MAB/Lee weakest link role is folly. If we're picking top 5 next year our defense, unchanged from currently, is probably why.

Agreed and dont think the guys whom can come up are ready and would like to give the korobov's and sustr's more time than coming up this or next year even koekkoek too.

5. Goalies - Fine playing wait and see with Bishop and Lindback. We spent too many assets bringing them in to not give them fair shakes at seizing their spots. Plus, if they both suck we'll just pin it all on Frantz Jean and patiently bide our time waiting on Vasilevski.

Think the bishop move works out and lindback will develop and one two years be ready to start. Both are going out though when gudlevski vasilevski and guys like wilcox get here.


I'm not calling for Yzerman's head. He did great getting us competitive out of the gate and rebuilding the farm over time. I really only object to the Downie and Lecavalier decisions so far, everything else I can live with if we get back on the track of lasting success. I do think the financial gravity of the Vinny decision adds pressure on Yzerman. He might get one more free pass through a bad season, unlikely two more though...and certainly not if they come at the cost of Marty signing elsewhere and/or Stamkos not renegotiating an extension.

I will never call for stevies head I believe in him. Know hands have been tied and a lot has been hard to change so far.

He does have options at this point. Think he is playing a patience game.

He is gonna showcase a guy here and there get some good stats see someone as upgrade lower levels etc.. or adequate and make moves when the prospect is at highest etc..

I WANT TO WIN NOW.

So hope with waivers we do something add some toughness. We should have 2.6 million with my math when bury lee and helenius in AHL.

Is a ton of teams that have too many D so is gonna be some good pick ups am scared we do what have done though so far and ignore the teams lack of physical guys and go get guys whom are more offensive minded which we do not need imo.

We are fine on that department

 

[LightningStrikes]

Salo had a really good first season? (...) What did you watch last year.

I don't know what you're trying to impy here but Salo and Hedman were our best defensemen.

You bash Yzerman for not adding significant new pieces to our defense but one post later you say you're believing in the Yzerplan etc. So which is it?

I'm sure even Yzerman would've loved to add a guy like Scuderi but we didn't have a chance. So unless you're willing to overpay you go into training camp and see what you got hoping a couple of guys are able to take the next step. I seriously believe this team wouldn't have been picking 3rd overall if last season was a 82 game season. From what I can tell from various interviews with Yzerman this is also what he believes. I am willing to play the patience game instead of hitting the panic button in early August.

We should have 2.6 million with my math when bury lee and helenius in AHL.

That's correct, we have ~ $2.6 million in cap space right now and that's still counting Ohlund's $3.6 million cap hit. Source: http://www.capgeek.com/lightning

 

[garmonbozia]

Biggest misnomer.

People have to realize it wasnt about Vinnys cap hit this year or next, or the one after that. It was about the cap hit 5+ years from now, as well as the cap recapture penalties we would have had if he retired before the end of the deal. Vinnys overall contract and the new CBA rules are what made this happen. Not just his current yearly cap hit. Huge difference.

Generally, a misnomer means a word with a meaning other than what is thought...sort of like your use of the word misnomer itself.

As to the rest, it was totally about years 3-6 down the road.

The only reason this year and next were relatively irrelevant was because of the option to use the amnesty buyout. I think it would have been better used next offseason, if at all, with an amnesty buyout used this offseason on Malone for 10% of the cost and 60% of the cap savings (still could have added Filppula). I would've willingly risked Vinny not being injured heading into next offseason without hesitation.

Years 7 and 8 were nearly as irrelevant due to the discrepancy between salary paid and cap hit flipping from savings to costing. A regular buyout at that time would have been very manageable and him retiring would have actually granted a cap savings. All also mitigated by what should be healthy league, and therefore, cap growth over that time
Cap recapture was only significant if he was ever traded or if he retired or was bought out between 2015 and 2017. The crusher was the fact that Stamkos and Hedman hit UFA in that period and any of our current prospects who succeed would likely be due their 2nd contracts then too, I don't think anybody is as ignorant of that as you'd like to believe.

But as I said, all thats done, over, kaput, and not what I was trying to convey anyway. The point I was trying to make was that Yzerman threw the flexibility gained away again for marginally better or less value over the next 5 years. I think he could have gotten more out of the savings, while keeping the flexibility, by making 2-3 signings for less caphit and less term. Signings more akin to those that were so successful his first year on the job, ones that filled more holes and fostered better competition.

I'm not hung up on the business side of things pooping on the sentimentality. Our proud captain deserved better, but I would have as shamelessly done it next offseason anyway. I am done beating this pile of glue though, so...enjoy.

 

[Felonious Python]

Correct. I worry that people will share her anti-Yzerman sentiment and put pressure on Vinik to remove him before his job is complete. That would be foolish

The same ones who wear Red Wings gear when they're in town? Unlikely.

Some people will just never be satisfied by the way things are done and they'll take to facebook to share their brilliance with the world.

 

[Lord Stan 2020]

I don't know what you're trying to impy here but Salo and Hedman were our best defensemen.

You bash Yzerman for not adding significant new pieces to our defense but one post later you say you're believing in the Yzerplan etc. So which is it?

No I get was a weak free agency on top four. I wanted a journey man by now to solve what I think is doing NOTHING in regards to top six. I think that is not too much to ask for. I have disagreed on other boards on some players due to injury history coming into camp last year out of shape or even having a concussion history etc.. IE: Two guys whom chicago picked up. Yet I figured stevie would do something by now.

I'm sure even Yzerman would've loved to add a guy like Scuderi but we didn't have a chance. So unless you're willing to overpay you go into training camp and see what you got hoping a couple of guys are able to take the next step. I seriously believe this team wouldn't have been picking 3rd overall if last season was a 82 game season. From what I can tell from various interviews with Yzerman this is also what he believes. I am willing to play the patience game instead of hitting the panic button in early August.

I dont see as the option of adding a barberio to the mix solves anything we already have guys whom can play the power play. Maybe sustr or korobov are higher on stevies list than mine? I don't think they are ready and would like at least another year in minors? I think we could use a big body defender whom hits.

That's correct, we have ~ $2.6 million in cap space right now and that's still counting Ohlund's $3.6 million cap hit. Source: http://www.capgeek.com/lightning

I was going from quote in times not ohlunds deal or capgeek where we have 1.1 and if bury lee and helenius that added 1.5.

I think we can be a playoff team but if do nothing and let brewer play we are probably in for a rude awakening. We will see time tells. Brewer might shock everyone and play better than did last year. I know he couldnt play with carle. I also expected malone gone but that didnt happen so guess the deals were not out there.

I have been one of stevies biggest supporters. I know how tied his hands have been but that doesnt mean I have to love everything he does or doesnt do. That is why I am not the GM yet have the right to view how I think he has done?

I dont want him gone EVER. I would like two defensemen pretty badly though

 

[HoseEmDown]

Brewer plays a good positional game? I dont even want to go there Obyrne is garbage. Salo had a really good first season? AUlie is a big physical? What did you watch last year.

You dont know our league or are in serious denial in my opinion. OUR D is good enough to be competitive how did that work out last year? WE ARE NOW IN MORE COMPETITIVE LEAGUE which is seriously and I am saying seriously MORE PHYSICAL.

I think COOPER is an awesome coach and huge upgrade from last season. That being said he is only as good as the clay he has to work with.

Brewer cant skate out of his own way. He hits if can skate to the place lol. Yet he is not the brewer of three years ago. Salo is 37 odds are we are gonna have injuries at times to him and others. Taormina lol wont even go there.

When Toronto and boston come into town and manhandle us let me know what you think. We need some bigger bodies. Guess you think labrie with his 5-10 minutes or crombeen with his 5 minutes will alleviate that situation. That is giving them both the time they will get when are in penalty boxes for fighting lol.

Your thoughts to me seem so ridiculous.. Cooper likes to run 7 D. Brewer I am betting is one step slower than the guy we watched last year whom was atrocious. If we can ship him at one point for a seventh round pick I will be happy with his contract I doubt he is moveable so I hope someone goes to arbitration so if we buy out malone can buy brewer also like the toronto thing with Lilies.

Korobov and Sustr I have no doubts can be solid contributors IN TIME koekkoek I am super high on. They need work and time and are not ready to solve us being one of worst defensive teams in hockey.

Barberio is simply an offensive defensemen and to me NOTHING SPECIAL he makes STUPID risks and chances at times and if is faced with physically gifted guys he leaves a TON not a little A TON to be desired. He plays a good positional game? Guess you missed him playing a few guys out of grand rapids? He was out of league on guys whom are not gonna make it past 3rd line this year? I am trying to be fair to him. I get that was player of year in AHL on defense two years ago but that was based on his plus minus and scoring more than anything.

He needs serious work still IMHO. I see him being a power play specialist whom never cuts it into the top four. If he does I feel for the team that plays him. He needs to play more physical.

He is good at power play he is good at getting puck out quickly on own end. Yet on defense? Nothing even close to special.

Taormina is 5'9 like 180 as small as marty great defensemen? honestly everything I said about barberio goes for him yet he is awesome skater too bad not a forward and is great at distributing puck and leading a charge up ice because his skating is very fast and good. Yet defensively? WOW.

Is kinda like debate other day had about trading for another guy from rangers whom said we didnt need any more centers we had mike angelidis if had injuries or major problems.

Yep a lifer ahl guy is great idea whom is challenged to say the least for scoring.

We seriously need two D if we want to develop kids at right rates. One guy whom can do 3-4 if injuries happen but plays 5-6 and is shut down solid a little offense doesnt need to be great at that but PHYSICAL and Gritty and will clear the net and can CLEAR the net lol. Which if you think carle or barberio are that guy so be it we see the game differently.

Next we need a 3-4 and is hopefully RH D whom has all the attributes I just named but has been a top four already and is ready to take over.

I love stevie I love tampa but wow we could be in serious trouble.

Maybe they come up and shock the world and whole thing changes but what do I see?

We added drouin and valtteri fipulla lost vinny from a team which picked THIRD last year. A team that was a laughing stock defensively. Which we handled nothing on changing that?

I believe in COOPER but NO ONE IS A MIRACLE WORKER. Maybe have too much helen keller going on.

Brewer is good positionaly in his own end, his issue is he can get beat with speed and he makes bad pinches. Salo was our second best defenseman all year so I don't know what you were watching. He's a great veteran presence for Hedman, he doesn't do anything spectacular so he doesn't stand out. Aulie was our leader in hits last year, he steps up on players well and battles in the corner, he shour be doing more with his size but he does enor with his minutes. O'Byrne is a similar player, so why do we need to get what we already have. I believe Aulie still has room to grow.

I don't know what you're talking about with the I don't know the league comment. This league is not the Broad Street bully league you seem to want us to be. So what if Boston or Toronto are more physical then us. We don't play that style nor do we need to get players just to play against them.

When did I ever say anything about Barberio or Taormina being great defensively? I said they will be our 7th D and first callup. They bring a more offensive element to the game.

We can be competitive if Hedman continues developing and Salo stays healthy we have a solid first pair. Carle plays like he did late in the season and improves in his own end. Gudas shows he can play a top 4 role and continue his offensive improvement then we should have a solid middle pair. Brewer regains some of his old form and Aulie improves his decision making then we have a really good bottom pair.

 

[LightningStrikes]

No I get was a weak free agency on top four. I wanted a journey man by now to solve what I think is doing NOTHING in regards to top six. I think that is not too much to ask for. I have disagreed on other boards on some players due to injury history coming into camp last year out of shape or even having a concussion history etc.. IE: Two guys whom chicago picked up. Yet I figured stevie would do something by now.

I really don't know what you're trying to say.

I dont see as the option of adding a barberio to the mix solves anything we already have guys whom can play the power play.

Well first of all you have to bring him (Barberio) up at some point, don't cha? He's 23 and he doesn't have a whole lot left to prove in the AHL so it's logical for Yzerman to ask him to take the next step. Last season when he got his two games with the Lightning he was thrown in at the deep end so let's not judge him on that combined 30 minute performance. Barbs will never be a stud stay-at-home defenseman and nobody should be expecting him to be that. But oudside of Carle and maybe Hedman he's probably our only other PMD option for the next couple of years. And I find it funny that you've mentioned our PP. Our PP was horrible last season (there's even a separate thread on it). Puck distribution was terrible and I hate the idea of putting Marty back on the point again so Barbs would actually fill a huge need of the team.

Maybe sustr or korobov are higher on stevies list than mine? I don't think they are ready and would like at least another year in minors? I think we could use a big body defender whom hits.

I too see both in the AHL for at least another season. And yes, we could use a big bodied defender who doesn't shy away from physical contact. Probably half the league is looking for such a player. And that's exactly the problem. It all comes down to demand and supply which determine the asking price. Obviously, a deal that would've worked for the Lightning wasn't out there so you have to focus on what you already have. Let's see if or how Aulie is able to progress for example.

I was going from quote in times not ohlunds deal or capgeek where we have 1.1 and if bury lee and helenius that added 1.5.

Uh again, I'm not sure what you mean but since you end up with $2.6 million cap space - which is the right number according to Cap Geek - we should be ok.

I think we can be a playoff team but if do nothing and let brewer play we are probably in for a rude awakening. We will see time tells. Brewer might shock everyone and play better than did last year. I know he couldnt play with carle. I also expected malone gone but that didnt happen so guess the deals were not out there.

Nobody was expecting the Lightning to end up as bad as we did (bottom-3) last season. Many experts had us around #7-10 in the East which I think was realistic. The shortened season produced a lot of odd results. For the Lightning Brewer's struggling is an example for that. Filppula's off season is another one. As I said above: Many things even themselves out over the course of a full season. Give Cooper a full training camp and go from there. See how Brewer, Filppula, Malone and the others who seriously struggled last season will do and then make adjustments if needed.

 

[Lord Stan 2020]

Brewer is good positionaly in his own end, his issue is he can get beat with speed and he makes bad pinches. Salo was our second best defenseman all year so I don't know what you were watching. He's a great veteran presence for Hedman, he doesn't do anything spectacular so he doesn't stand out. Aulie was our leader in hits last year, he steps up on players well and battles in the corner, he shour be doing more with his size but he does enor with his minutes. O'Byrne is a similar player, so why do we need to get what we already have. I believe Aulie still has room to grow.

Ok I see something different. I am unsure of something here and have brought it up. Did BREWER QUIT? I questioned that last year. Did he quit at one point? Or is it something else like the guy can no longer skate? I loved brewer 3 years ago 2011-2012 I wasnt down on him. Last year? Wow am I not happy. I dont think he is good position wise in own end. Think he cannot skate out of his own way or didnt last year. I dont remember saying anything bad on SALO? He will not be retained after his contract expires? He is old? That is true. Any of our guys can get injured not just saying this as shot at salo for age? We had no injuries last year.

Aulie is fine. Just not ready for top four minutes in my opinion but for age contract etc..

TO get another AULIE? Think you need 8-9 defensemen thats why. Yes some need to be at ahl level. Just feel our kids need more time full years in AHL etc.. We just need a couple of band aids not complete revamping yet. Going with six guys and a hope barberio who is power play specialist and not physical enough IMO. We have plenty of offensive guys. We do not need another one unless he is better than what we have which I DOUBT?

I don't know what you're talking about with the I don't know the league comment. This league is not the Broad Street bully league you seem to want us to be. So what if Boston or Toronto are more physical then us. We don't play that style nor do we need to get players just to play against them.

Ok we will see Boston and Toronto are TON's more physical than we are. Ottawa Buffalo Detroit and Montreal are also more physical than we are. Oh that leaves the AHL team who we have trouble beating in the past seasons in Florida.

When did I ever say anything about Barberio or Taormina being great defensively? I said they will be our 7th D and first callup. They bring a more offensive element to the game.

Which I dont think we need?

We can be competitive if Hedman continues developing and Salo stays healthy we have a solid first pair. Carle plays like he did late in the season and improves in his own end. Gudas shows he can play a top 4 role and continue his offensive improvement then we should have a solid middle pair. Brewer regains some of his old form and Aulie improves his decision making then we have a really good bottom pair.

Gudas played protected I think he can play with Carle and is major upgrade from Carle and Brewer.

I think we get beat up by bigger stronger teams. I think we are very questionable in the physical department. I didnt want a clifford when people were talking about him. I wanted a body or two on defense. I still want that body or two.

Aulie is ok he is progressing steadily imo. He is just not ready to be a major difference. When someone goes down to think that barberio is what we have scares me.

This is what I am saying also I think we became based on teams the most physical league overall of them all?

I think brewer is slower by a TON from guy we brought in. I think that shows. Maybe was heart instead and he quit on us at one point?

I expected more this offseason. I was on trades and was offered NY Rangers for Del Zotto I dont want Del Zotto but thought Stralman showed serious promise last year. We have gudas. I would like a Stralman pickup type until am sure Korobov and sustr and koekkoek are ready.

Am not saying long term solutions am saying simple solution for this year.

My only problems are the two I said when we left last season big glaring problems I wanted malone moved and brewer to have at least a plan B.

I would much rather give killorn and panik more time than wait on malone to get injured again. He is also slower in my opinion lost a step.

To me barberio for brewer is NOT a plan B.

 

[LightningStrikes]

My only problems are the two I said when we left last season big glaring problems I wanted malone moved and brewer to have at least a plan B.

I can't answer all your points but this one stands out for me. Keeping Brewer and Malone is our plan B: Having depth is our plan B. Call it insurance if you want. "Kid X needs more time? No problem, we still have veteran Y. Let kid X ease into the job." If we had just thrown Brewer and Malone away for 7th rounders just for the sake of getting rid of them we would have to put a lot more pressure on our kids without a real backup plan. You just don't throw away assets - especially when there's still potential to get them back on track (full training camp, full season - see above).

 

[IdealisticSniper]

Generally, a misnomer means a word with a meaning other than what is thought...sort of like your use of the word misnomer itself.

As to the rest, it was totally about years 3-6 down the road.

The only reason this year and next were relatively irrelevant was because of the option to use the amnesty buyout. I think it would have been better used next offseason, if at all, with an amnesty buyout used this offseason on Malone for 10% of the cost and 60% of the cap savings (still could have added Filppula). I would've willingly risked Vinny not being injured heading into next offseason without hesitation.

Years 7 and 8 were nearly as irrelevant due to the discrepancy between salary paid and cap hit flipping from savings to costing. A regular buyout at that time would have been very manageable and him retiring would have actually granted a cap savings. All also mitigated by what should be healthy league, and therefore, cap growth over that time
Cap recapture was only significant if he was ever traded or if he retired or was bought out between 2015 and 2017. The crusher was the fact that Stamkos and Hedman hit UFA in that period and any of our current prospects who succeed would likely be due their 2nd contracts then too, I don't think anybody is as ignorant of that as you'd like to believe.

But as I said, all thats done, over, kaput, and not what I was trying to convey anyway. The point I was trying to make was that Yzerman threw the flexibility gained away again for marginally better or less value over the next 5 years. I think he could have gotten more out of the savings, while keeping the flexibility, by making 2-3 signings for less caphit and less term. Signings more akin to those that were so successful his first year on the job, ones that filled more holes and fostered better competition.

I'm not hung up on the business side of things pooping on the sentimentality. Our proud captain deserved better, but I would have as shamelessly done it next offseason anyway. I am done beating this pile of glue though, so...enjoy.

While I appreciate the subtle attempt at explaining what a word means, I'm well aware of what it means. I wasnt using it as literally as you seem to have taken it. But I digress if you want to argue over semantics.

As for the rest since you have decided to bow out of the argument as soon as you made your points, I don't find the need to go into it in more detail other than saying, while yes next year was my guess for a buyout on Lecavalier as well, it had to be done and your math is incorrect. Also spending some of the money on Flip who is 5 years younger, and plays a more two way game than Lecavalier ever will, and is also nowhere near as injury prone, isn't as much of a waste of space as most people think.

 

[Lord Stan 2020]

I really don't know what you're trying to say.

Think we need someone whom can play top four if we have injuries and as I think brewer is pretty much a liability that he was last year. Was guys picked up whom others have been mad about we didnt grab whom all had issues and understand why stevie didnt go grab one of them because of those issues.

Well first of all you have to bring him (Barberio) up at some point, don't cha? He's 23 and he doesn't have a whole lot left to prove in the AHL so it's logical for Yzerman to ask him to take the next step. Last season when he got his two games with the Lightning he was thrown in at the deep end so let's not judge him on that combined 30 minute performance. Barbs will never be a stud stay-at-home defenseman and nobody should be expecting him to be that. But oudside of Carle and maybe Hedman he's probably our only other PMD option for the next couple of years. And I find it funny that you've mentioned our PP. Our PP was horrible last season (there's even a separate thread on it). Puck distribution was terrible and I hate the idea of putting Marty back on the point again so Barbs would actually fill a huge need of the team.

If barberio can handle that OK he is not a solution for defense though at this time. I said if he is better than what we have great. I want 8-9 guys whom can play NOW. We have 5 whom are what I consider good all around players whom can take over and go 18 minutes if necessary. I put barberio as pp specialist and maybe that has a use but not 18 minutes a game and think brewer is pretty much finished.

I too see both in the AHL for at least another season. And yes, we could use a big bodied defender who doesn't shy away from physical contact. Probably half the league is looking for such a player. And that's exactly the problem. It all comes down to demand and supply which determine the asking price. Obviously, a deal that would've worked for the Lightning wasn't out there so you have to focus on what you already have. Let's see if or how Aulie is able to progress for example.

I like Aulie I put him in our top 5

Uh again, I'm not sure what you mean but since you end up with $2.6 million cap space - which is the right number according to Cap Geek - we should be ok.

Was going from tampa times or st pete times came out yesterday. Figured cap geek is not up to date at this point. They put us at 1.1 million as we stand for now.

Nobody was expecting the Lightning to end up as bad as we did (bottom-3) last season. Many experts had us around #7-10 in the East which I think was realistic. The shortened season produced a lot of odd results. For the Lightning Brewer's struggling is an example for that. Filppula's off season is another one. As I said above: Many things even themselves out over the course of a full season. Give Cooper a full training camp and go from there. See how Brewer, Filppula, Malone and the others who seriously struggled last season will do and then make adjustments if needed.

Well I am not worried on Fippula his stats besides scoring all went up last year. He played with 2 rookies most of the times one guy who was on a 24-28 goal pace who went 25 games and scored 2 points. He honestly looked awesome in playoffs to me. He played his typical rolls of penalty kill and two way game.

Fippula is young and can still skate Those other two? I wonder.

I still hope and believe stevie picks up a guy in waivers doesnt have to be best guy ever just someone whom can do the hard minutes a penalty kill specialist so if we do have injuries? Or if brewer is as bad as think he might be we have some coverage.

I hate that I am not sure if brewer can skate anymore or malone or did both quit at times? Questioning their HEARTS is hard to do? Was told Brewer led team in hits? Yet the eye test to me told me something even in end of year was way off.

I hate to give up on players. I hate to throw a bus onto a player like have done with imo malone and brewer. HOPE AND PRAY I am wrong. Maybe because of half season lateness etc.. they were not in game shape? Maybe they have good years left?

Even if they both do I would like a BODY brought in for injuries.

Doesnt have to be perfect just someone ready to step into whatever roll for whatever amount of minutes required.

I think will be plenty of those guys.

For someone to say Obyrne is garbage? He will drop the gloves and protect teammates is huge could get people out of crease for sure. He played 18.51 minutes two of last 3 years? Offensively he brings you nothing. 6'5 235 is not great at own end but if put at crease to get rid of people he will get the job done. He hits he blocks shots. Is used to playing PK in past against first line. Can be had for under a million imo.

I can't answer all your points but this one stands out for me. Keeping Brewer and Malone is our plan B: Having depth is our plan B. Call it insurance if you want. "Kid X needs more time? No problem, we still have veteran Y. Let kid X ease into the job." If we had just thrown Brewer and Malone away for 7th rounders just for the sake of getting rid of them we would have to put a lot more pressure on our kids without a real backup plan. You just don't throw away assets - especially when there's still potential to get them back on track (full training camp, full season - see above).

I agree just cause dont write out every thought process doesnt make it that I dont get the situation AM positive stevie went out and tried to move brewer and upgrade the team. People want too much for the franson's of the world, or too little for a malone etc.. I get all of that.

I just want a BODY for now and will wait to see how these guys play and if we need to cut them cause of contracts at the trade deadline or next season etc..

I will give benefit of doubt but still want another defender.

I mentioned a second ago I viewed them as maybe even not having the heart that can be part of boucher legacy even. Part of not having timing cause change of start date etc..

I fear otherwise so I would have a better plan B than what I see.

I think we need another body maybe stevie thinks korobov is ready have a friend whom says he is.

 

[zeykshade]

Korobov isn't ready. He looked lost without Gudas there.

 

[chasespace]

For someone to say Obyrne is garbage? He will drop the gloves and protect teammates is huge could get people out of crease for sure. He played 18.51 minutes two of last 3 years? Offensively he brings you nothing. 6'5 235 is not great at own end but if put at crease to get rid of people he will get the job done. He hits he blocks shots. Is used to playing PK in past against first line. Can be had for under a million imo.

So a cheaper, worse version of Brett Clark who will fight? Pass.

 

[Yzlamic Preacher*]

So a cheaper, worse version of Brett Clark who will fight? Pass.

Nothing is worse than Brett Clark.

 

[The Macho King]

Nothing is worse than Brett Clark.

A wild BRIAN LEE appears!