OC - Fake Twitter Accounts Article

[Handles1919]

Perhaps you should spend less time belittling posters and more time just accepting that other people have different opinions from you than maybe you wouldn't need to spend time 'making suggestions on how to handle' things.

Why not apply for a moderator position if you feel so inclined on trying to keep threads on track?

he isnt belittling anyone!

hes the white knight this forum needs

edit: @Ice-Tray

forgot about the cowardly thing

 

[Silencio]

We're living in an era where sports executives and athletes have been caught using amateurish-looking fake Twitter accounts. Why is it so hard to believe an owner would do the same thing?

 

[aragorn]

That simply isnt true. There is evidence that fake twitter accounts were created and that these accounts propagated messages that appear on their face to support the Senators official messaging. All of that is evidence that supports the conclusion that the Sens are connected to this. Now, it isn't conclusive evidence. There are plausible alternative explanations. But, like, its very reasonable for everyday people to conclude that Sens were probably behind this.

We live in an age where malicious countries and companies do stuff like this. Melnyk has repeatedly acted in a dishonest fashion throughout his career and also often in an incompetent fashion. It is completely believable that he would do this.

Of course it is possible, but that would be another black eye if the Sens are involved in any way, but let's not prosecute before we know for a fact, it would certainly hurt the brand & the gate. Isn't this also the kind of thing that Hoffman's girlfriend was accused of & that has yet to be resolved? Yet many people seem to have convicted her online & now this. Maybe it wasn't her & it was these fake accounts that continue to happen since Mike got traded. Just weird that it continues to happen around the Sens, I've not heard of any other franchise that is having these kinds of problems with fake accounts but how do they stop it? And, who do you believe with all this crap? The ugly side of technology & the lengths some people will go, it's sad & cowardly really regardless of who is involved.

 

[Silencio]

Just weird that it continues to happen around the Sens, I've not heard of any other franchise that is having these kinds of problems with fake accounts

Different league but the Philadelphia 76ers had a huge Twitter burner account scandal earlier this year.

 

[Ice-Tray]

ok.

thats your typical posting isnt it?

That's better.

Wondering why people continue to make baseless accusations without facts, and suggesting they stop, is definitely a post I would make repeatedly.

 

[Micklebot]

People are suppose to be innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt in this country, right? Isn't this also the kind of thing that Hoffman's girlfriend was accused of & that has yet to be resolved? Yet many people seem to have convicted her online & now this. Maybe it wasn't her & it was these fake accounts that continue to happen since Mike got traded. Just weird that it continues to happen around the Sens, I've not heard of any other franchise that is having these kinds of problems with fake accounts & how do they stop it? And, who do you believe with all this crap? The ugly side of technology & the lengths some people will go, it's sad really regardless of who is involved.

Beyond a reasonable doubt is a standard needed for criminal liability. We often apply lesser standards, like balance of probabilities, when the stakes aren't as high. Not sure I'd apply the highest standard we apply when the stakes are simply public perception.

Right now, the Sens have plausible deniability because of how unsophisticated the bots were. I find it interesting that people (not you, just spring boarding off your post here) float the idea that it's more likely somebody more clever and manipulative would set up an obvious bot account intending to get caught presumably to troll the team just for the laughs, but Melnyk or the team wouldn't be clever enough to go with a less sophisticated option (they are after all not requiring as broad penetration of their message) and have the fall back of plausible deniability if they are caught.

In the end, I don't really see any of the options being all that much more likely than the other, be it Melnyk/team, superfan, or troll. There really hasn't been any particularly compelling evidence tying the fake accounts to any of the three possible options, and I'm not ready to discount any of them. Melnyk and the team certainly have an incentive to try and change the narrative, Super fans are out there, and particularly in sports and social media, trolls do dumb things just for the laughs.

 

[Ice-Tray]

Perhaps you should spend less time belittling posters and more time just accepting that other people have different opinions from you than maybe you wouldn't need to spend time 'making suggestions on how to handle' things.

Why not apply for a moderator position if you feel so inclined on trying to keep threads on track?

Perhaps, but then again perhaps not. I like differing opinions, and I like challenging them. You should stop expecting quality posts in response to you when you end yours with 'lol'.

I also prefer to let the moderators moderate, I'm content to just make suggestions on how you can behave better, and you can do with it as you will.

 

[Ice-Tray]

I feel like you're coming from a position of assuming everyone is as discerning as you. It's something that everyone tends to do, thinking everyone approaches things the same way as they do, but really today's society should serve as evidence that nothing could be farther from the truth. I can totally understand what you mean about the transparency of such a campaign working against the team, but today I think the way things work is that the only people who feel that way are those who already feel that way and for those who want an excuse to feel the opposite way it reinforces that for them. I definitely agree that if it is part of some kind of campaign (hopefully very much arm's length and without direct knowledge), it's so out there as to be embarrassing, but honestly I don't have to stretch my disbelief so far to see Melnyk thinking - this is the way things are done today, this is how Trump (and so many others) got elected, this WORKs.

Faire enough, I understand what you're getting at for sure, however, I doubt that EM personally, nor his professional PR hire, nor any of her hired managers would ok something like this.

This is a sports team, not election rigging. The team doesn't need to fight battle in the trenches of online forums, they just don't need to, and the price to get involved in that kind stuff will always end up badly for a team, players too as we know. Even if the team just had someone on here arguing on its behalf in an above-board manner, it would get torn to bits, as several posters on here already do, and the entire thing would be used against the team.

Seriously, there were no major PR gains to be had here, no matter if the bots were never discovered. A teenaged girl arguing on the internet that EM isn't that bad is changing absolutely no one's opinion, and merely opening themselves up to group attacks again as we see here.

It's a zero sum game, which is one of the main reasons why there is next to no chance the team would be involved in this, especially as a top down initiative. I do see how it is a great talking point for those who despise the owner, management, and team. Which is exactly how it's being used, lowest common denominator stuff as you outlined in your post.

My opinion of course.

 

[Engineer]

Delete

 

[DaveMatthew]

Faire enough, I understand what you're getting at for sure, however, I doubt that EM personally, nor his professional PR hire, nor any of her hired managers would ok something like this.

This is a sports team, not election rigging. The team doesn't need to fight battle in the trenches of online forums, they just don't need to, and the price to get involved in that kind stuff will always end up badly for a team, players too as we know. Even if the team just had someone on here arguing on its behalf in an above-board manner, it would get torn to bits, as several posters on here already do, and the entire thing would be used against the team.

Seriously, there were no major PR gains to be had here, no matter if the bots were never discovered. A teenaged girl arguing on the internet that EM isn't that bad is changing absolutely no one's opinion, and merely opening themselves up to group attacks again as we see here.

It's a zero sum game, which is one of the main reasons why there is next to no chance the team would be involved in this, especially as a top down initiative. I do see how it is a great talking point for those who despise the owner, management, and team. Which is exactly how it's being used, lowest common denominator stuff as you outlined in your post.

My opinion of course.

Your reasoning makes sense. However, this organization has proven that thinking logically isn't their strong suit.

Take the pre-season video for example.

Whether you think it's fair or not, Eugene Melnyk is not well liked in this city. The majority of hardcore fans hate him, and the majority of fair-weather fans believe what they hear: that he's a smug asshole who's cash poor and running the team into the ground. Whether you personally agree with it or not, that's the perception that's out there, and that's been the perception since his comments during the outdoor game. It's undeniable.

COO Nicholas Ruszkowski knows this. CMO Aimiee Deziel knows this. Anyone who works for the team and lives in the city knows this. These people watch the news, listen to the radio and read the paper. It's not a secret. Hell, Melnyk knows this.

So you'd think, when trying to build excitement for the season, the LAST person they'd put out there to communicate the "plan" is Eugene f***ing Melnyk. Anyone else would have been a better, more logical choice. Guy Boucher would have been a better choice! And yet... what did they do?

My point is, just because something is logically stupid and you think, "there's no way they would do something like that, it's stupid! there's no benefit!"... it doesn't mean Melnyk won't still do it.

 

[Ice-Tray]

Beyond a reasonable doubt is a standard needed for criminal liability. We often apply lesser standards, like balance of probabilities, when the stakes aren't as high. Not sure I'd apply the highest standard we apply when the stakes are simply public perception.

Right now, the Sens have plausible deniability because of how unsophisticated the bots were. I find it interesting that people (not you, just spring boarding off your post here) float the idea that it's more likely somebody more clever and manipulative would set up an obvious bot account intending to get caught presumably to troll the team just for the laughs, but Melnyk or the team wouldn't be clever enough to go with a less sophisticated option (they are after all not requiring as broad penetration of their message) and have the fall back of plausible deniability if they are caught.

In the end, I don't really see any of the options being all that much more likely than the other, be it Melnyk/team, superfan, or troll. There really hasn't been any particularly compelling evidence tying the fake accounts to any of the three possible options, and I'm not ready to discount any of them. Melnyk and the team certainly have an incentive to try and change the narrative, Super fans are out there, and particularly in sports and social media, trolls do dumb things just for the laughs.

Also spring boarding given you tend to have well thought out reasonings...

Personally I used 'more' sophisticated to describe the option juxtaposed against the unsophisticated option. Neither is particularly sophisticated in general.

Also, just curious to follow you train of thought. How would purposefully launching an unsophisticated bot campaign be clever and sophisticated from a team perspective. Is it the idea that if it fails the team could make the argument that they would 'never be that dumb'? I mean doesn't it more sense to launch a campaign that wouldn't be exposed? I mean all you would need to do is behave as though the various accounts could even be accused of being real people to avoid most suspicion.

Again, if the team launched this what exactly would be the goal? A handful of cute young girls with a serious love for EM and the team were going to go up against the angry group on social media and start changing minds? I just can't see a realistic outcome that would be beneficial for the team especially when weighed against the potential repercussions, and exponentially so if we are to consider that the deliberately created an amateur campaign hoping to deny everything if it went wrong.

I just don't see it. I would love to see a good explanation for this all though that doesn't have to resort to EM is cheap because he didn't sign EK therefore he wouldn't fund a proper campaign, he's an egotistical dick so he would do this despite all of the possible repercussions... etc...

 

[Spartachat]

Can you explain the gain from Colangelo's perspective, and why he felt the need to create multiple fake Twitter accounts?

It is not ethical, but it is effective. You can influence public opinion on an issue. Why do you think the Russians do it. Many companies probably do this as well. It is just embarrassing if they get caught.

 

[Ice-Tray]

Your reasoning makes sense. However, this organization has proven that thinking logically isn't their strong suit.

Take the pre-season video for example.

Whether you think it's fair or not, Eugene Melnyk is not well liked in this city. The majority of hardcore fans hate him, and the majority of fair-weather fans believe what they hear: that he's a smug ******* who's cash poor and running the team into the ground. Whether you personally agree with it or not, that's the perception that's out there, and that's been the perception since his comments during the outdoor game. It's undeniable.

I understand that EM is disliked in the city, he went at the fanbase, it was ridiculously stupid, and the timing and method made it doubly so. Fair is fair. The between-the-ferns interview was cringe-worthy, but it was almost and old folks kind of thing, that some folks appreciate, kind of the like the town hall meetings. They were generally filled with older mild manner folk who wanted to hear what the man had to say, not voice grievances and cause disturbances. The 'interview' for all of its awkwardness (basically all of it) did give fans a whole bunch of information about the direction of the team, stuff that actually seems to be happening. I definitely agree that the delivery was not to my taste.

COO Nicholas Ruszkowski knows this. CMO Aimiee Deziel knows this. Anyone who works for the team and lives in the city knows this. These people watch the news, listen to the radio and read the paper. It's not a secret. Hell, Melnyk knows this.

I absolutely agree that this is common knowledge.

So you'd think, when trying to build excitement for the season, the LAST person they'd put out there to communicate the "plan" is Eugene ****ing Melnyk. Anyone else would have been a better, more logical choice. Guy Boucher would have been a better choice! And yet... what did they do?

I suspect that EM wanted to do it, and I also suspect that he is stubborn and feels like he can be part of the solution. While it may have been suggested that they go about this in a different way, if the boss wants to deliver the message, you try and make the best of things or you quit/lose your job.

My point is, just because something is logically stupid and you think, "there's no way they would do something like that, it's stupid! there's no benefit!"... it doesn't mean Melnyk won't still do it.

The interview was definitely not as pointless as your making it seem. it delivered a lot of real information about the direction of the team, and for those fans that don't actually hate the owner, and believe it or not there are many fans that while concerned don't hate (again I'll cite the town hall meetings), for them this could have been much less off putting.

For people who don't hate, this was between-the-ferns, and old-timey, but not an affront. Honestly I could see parents and grandparents finding it fine, as they grew up with real shows done like this.

Anyways, and absolutely pointless twitter bot campaign that would never be able to change the social media narrative, and that could do all kinds of damage to the organization if exposed doesn't seem similar to me. No one is going to claim that the bot campaign missed the mark and was cringe-worthy, it's straight up underhanded manipulation and deception.

Honestly Dave, thanks for taking the time to present an intelligent take, I appreciate it.

 

[Engineer]

Delete

 

[Ice-Tray]

It is not ethical, but it is effective. You can influence public opinion on an issue. Why do you think the Russians do it. Many companies probably do this as well. It is just embarrassing if they get caught.

Sure it can, if done effectively, I don't think anyone would argue that this is even a remote example of it. The truth is, with a sports team there is only so much you can do on social media, and that usual extends to offering deals and sharing dates. The real influence is creating an exciting product on the ice, which we are already doing. If we sign Duchene and Stone we will have done in two single moves more positive influencing than that same amount of money spent on boy campaigns could hope for.

When rigging an election it's a great move because those are one and dones. Even if the campaign is exposed the voting is done and as long as the victor has some degree of deniability what's done is done.

Our roto-scandal is another example, by the time people find out what happened it's too late to do anything about it if there is an ounce of deniability. In these cases a minion takes responsibility and takes the fall.

 

[aragorn]

Beyond a reasonable doubt is a standard needed for criminal liability. We often apply lesser standards, like balance of probabilities, when the stakes aren't as high. Not sure I'd apply the highest standard we apply when the stakes are simply public perception.

Right now, the Sens have plausible deniability because of how unsophisticated the bots were. I find it interesting that people (not you, just spring boarding off your post here) float the idea that it's more likely somebody more clever and manipulative would set up an obvious bot account intending to get caught presumably to troll the team just for the laughs, but Melnyk or the team wouldn't be clever enough to go with a less sophisticated option (they are after all not requiring as broad penetration of their message) and have the fall back of plausible deniability if they are caught.

In the end, I don't really see any of the options being all that much more likely than the other, be it Melnyk/team, superfan, or troll. There really hasn't been any particularly compelling evidence tying the fake accounts to any of the three possible options, and I'm not ready to discount any of them. Melnyk and the team certainly have an incentive to try and change the narrative, Super fans are out there, and particularly in sports and social media, trolls do dumb things just for the laughs.

I'm quite sure you would know much more about this than I would but it's quite sad when we can no longer decipher real from fake & disturbing where these kinds of things are leading us with no real indicator as to who is responsible other than a balance of responsibilities. In other words, if it walks like a duck & talks like a duck it's a duck, but what if it's a loon masquerading as a duck? And I would agree EM is a bit of a loon who could potentially do more stupid things, I would not put it pass him, not to mention vengeful. But it does make me wonder & give cause to whether Hoffman's GF could potentially be innocent & incorrectly accused here but how will we ever find out the truth? I'm now going downstairs to watch some fake news on TV.

 

[DaveMatthew]

The interview was definitely not as pointless as your making it seem. it delivered a lot of real information about the direction of the team, and for those fans that don't actually hate the owner, and believe it or not there are many fans that while concerned don't hate (again I'll cite the town hall meetings), for them this could have been much less off putting.

The concept of doing the video wasn't the problem. Doing a video to communicate "the plan" would have been fine. The problem was choosing Eugene Melnyk as the person to deliver the message. (And I can only assume that it was Eugene Melnyk who "chose" Eugene Melnyk.)

After everything that had happened in the last 12 months - from the comments at the outdoor game to the awkward team photo to all the rumors and innuendo about Melnyk and Karlsson - any reasonable person would have told you that putting Melnyk in the video was a dumb idea. There was no upside. Melnyk doing it was not going to "usher in a new era" or excite anyone. It should have been Dorion, or Boucher, or anyone else involved in hockey ops. But Melnyk did it anyway.

So with this Twitter thing, sure, you're right. A reasonable person would say that there'd be no upside for Melnyk to carry it out. But that certainly doesn't mean he didn't do it, based on some of his decisions in the past.

You're making the assumption that Melnyk is a reasonable, logical person in all situations who understands what he needs to do to, and what he shouldn't do, to positively shape public perception. But we know that this isn't true.

Like @engineer said, there was no upside or logical reason for Bryan Colangelo and his wife to do it... but they did.

 

[coladin]

Perhaps you should spend less time belittling posters and more time just accepting that other people have different opinions from you than maybe you wouldn't need to spend time 'making suggestions on how to handle' things.

Why not apply for a moderator position if you feel so inclined on trying to keep threads on track?

Look Pa, someone on HF accused another of belittling someone

 

[coladin]

Can you explain the gain from Colangelo's perspective, and why he felt the need to create multiple fake Twitter accounts?

Can you explain why, when other general managers from around the league, would duplicate what Colangelo did...because it worked?

 

[coladin]

The concept of doing the video wasn't the problem. Doing a video to communicate "the plan" would have been fine. The problem was choosing Eugene Melnyk as the person to deliver the message. (And I can only assume that it was Eugene Melnyk who "chose" Eugene Melnyk.)

After everything that had happened in the last 12 months - from the comments at the outdoor game to the awkward team photo to all the rumors and innuendo about Melnyk and Karlsson - any reasonable person would have told you that putting Melnyk in the video was a dumb idea. There was no upside. It should have been Dorion, or Boucher, or anyone else involved in hockey ops. But Melnyk did it anyway.

So with this Twitter thing, sure, you're right. A reasonable person would say that there'd be no upside for Melnyk to carry it out. But that certainly doesn't mean he didn't do it, based on some of his decisions in the past.

You're making the assumption that Melnyk is a reasonable, logical person in all situations who understands what he needs to do to, and what he shouldn't do, to positively shape public perception. But we know that this isn't true.

Like @coladin said, there was no upside or logical reason for Bryan Colangelo and his wife to do it... but they did.

That is actually not what I said.

What I said was, after the fact that Colangelo got caught, why someone would even go down that route?

 

[Engineer]

Delete

 

[Pierre from Orleans]

Can you explain why, when other general managers from around the league, would duplicate what Colangelo did...because it worked?

Coming from the person who does it most.

Careful to not add any internet slang at the end of your sentence otherwise Ice-Tray won't take you serious.

 

[DaveMatthew]

That is actually not what I said.

What I said was, after the fact that Colangelo got caught, why someone would even go down that route?

My mistake. It was Engineer.

And to answer the question, because not everyone is a logical, reasonable actor. Lots of people do things that are stupid, and will continue to do things that are stupid, even if others have done them before. Eugene Melnyk has already proven that he's this type of person.

Why would he use the "showcase" weekend for his franchise, when 30,000+ fans would be going to a game, to say he might move the team?
Why would he decide to communicate the "hockey ops" plan in a poorly produced video, after saying that he wasn't involved in any of the hockey ops?
Why in today's climate, would he publicly tweet "we miss you" to Bill O'Reilly after O'Reilly had just been revealed to be a serial sexual assaulter?

None of those things made sense, but Melnyk did them anyway! So just because this wouldn't make sense, doesn't mean he didn't do it.

 

[coladin]

What is funny?

It's 100% undeniable proof that sports management is not above petty social media trolling, as is being claimed.

...even after the Colangelo debacle? You sure about that?

 

[Engineer]

Delete