Obscure hockey facts/stats (Part 2)

[The Panther]

Speaking of defencemen, I have a question: How many defencemen who scored 50 or more points in a season SIX TIMES or more are NOT in the Hall of Fame?

So far, I've got (with active players in bold)... I''m 99% sure this is all of them:

-- Mathieu Schneider x 6
-- Dave Babych x 6
-- Dan Boyle x 6
-- Victor Hedman x 6
-- Paul Reinhart x 7
-- Steve Duchesne x 7
-- Roman Josi x 7
-- Erik Karlsson x 7
-- Brent Burns x 7
-- Jeff Brown x 8
-- Gary Suter x 8
-- Reed Larson x 9
-- Sergei Gonchar x 9

So, basically all of the active guys --- Hedman, Josi, Karlsson, Burns --- are Hall of Fame locks, right? Maybe Burns is more like 50-50 (?), but anyway they're all in, more or less.

Obviously, 50 points in 1982 or whatever is not the same as in 1968 or 2012, but anyway do you think any of these non-Hall guys are deserving?

Despite era, I have to admit I'm impressed by Reed Larson hitting 50 points NINE times. That's pretty great at the NHL level. Not a Hall of Famer, though.

I think Gonchar needs to be in the Hall of Fame.

 

[Yozhik v tumane]

What defenseman had the highest percentage of goals out of his points? I'm not sure I'm making myself clear, so I'll just take an example (which I also suspect is very high on this list):

Shea Weber scored 589 points, out of those 224 were goals. Thus goals make up 38% of his accumulated points.

Does any other defenseman beat this, so to speak?

Among the top goal scoring defensemen of all time, King Clancy at #60 is the first to have a higher share of goals than Weber, with 137 out of his 287 points (47.7%) being goals. Of course, half of his career was before the forward pass, and almost all of it prior to secondary assists being awarded: pre-O6 NHL make for quite different environments than those of Weber.

Flash Hollett was only 9 years younger than King Clancy but did more in the NHL during periods when secondary assists were awarded. 132 out of his 313 points, or 42%, were goals.

Sheldon Souray is the first modern player I find that approaches Weber’s 38% goal ratio, but still falls short with 109/300 (36.3%). Just a few spots below him, however, there’s Reg Fleming whose entire NHL career was in the O6 era, with 108/240 points being goals: 45%.


The first post-expansion player I find among the top goal-scoring defensemen of all time…

#380 Andy Delmore. Born in 1976, in 2002-03 he tied Lidstrom and Gonchar for most goals by a defenseman with 18. Delmore played 283 NHL games, scored 43 goals and 58 assists for a total of 101 points: 42.6% of his points being goals.

 

[frisco]

Speaking of defencemen, I have a question: How many defencemen who scored 50 or more points in a season SIX TIMES or more are NOT in the Hall of Fame?

So far, I've got (with active players in bold)... I''m 99% sure this is all of them:

-- Mathieu Schneider x 6
-- Dave Babych x 6
-- Dan Boyle x 6
-- Victor Hedman x 6
-- Paul Reinhart x 7
-- Steve Duchesne x 7
-- Roman Josi x 7
-- Erik Karlsson x 7
-- Brent Burns x 7
-- Jeff Brown x 8
-- Gary Suter x 8
-- Reed Larson x 9
-- Sergei Gonchar x 9

So, basically all of the active guys --- Hedman, Josi, Karlsson, Burns --- are Hall of Fame locks, right? Maybe Burns is more like 50-50 (?), but anyway they're all in, more or less.

Obviously, 50 points in 1982 or whatever is not the same as in 1968 or 2012, but anyway do you think any of these non-Hall guys are deserving?

Despite era, I have to admit I'm impressed by Reed Larson hitting 50 points NINE times. That's pretty great at the NHL level. Not a Hall of Famer, though.

I think Gonchar needs to be in the Hall of Fame.

Some good producers listed. Which makes me think it is odd that Phil Housley (14 50-point seasons plus 43 points in 43 GP in a labor-shortened year) is considered a "bad" HOF pick by some.

My Best-Carey

 

[sr edler]

Here's one that will surprise some (and infuriate Canucks' fans):

From November 1997 through December 1998 (over 100 GP), Mark Messier of the Canucks was a top-15 NHL scorer.

He did get ridiculous ice time, you know we've already been through this, much more ice time than prime-aged Sundin on the Leafs for instance. If you've played any type of ball sport on any type of level you know that if you play a shit ton of minutes you will score more, though your overall impact may still be negative because of fatigue or laziness or overall suckage.

Messier's usage on those teams (late 90s Vancouver) kinda reminds me of how Washington is currently deploying Ovi, giving him tons of 20+ TOI games and the full PP, despite him sucking pretty hard. So then the cultists can still point at the internal scoring race and say "look, how bad can he be, he's leading our team in scoring! what if he had better line-mates!" when half the team strategy is built around his personal stat-padding needs.

 

[FerrisRox]

Despite era, I have to admit I'm impressed by Reed Larson hitting 50 points NINE times.

He did it in consecutive seasons, too, essentially starting in his rookie season then reeling off nine straight seasons of over 50 points.

Once the Red Wings traded him, he was soon to be done as an effective NHLer.

 

[Voight]

I don't know how obscure this is, but Chris Pronger has the record for most Olympic Games participated in by a Canadian (NHL era). 98, 02, 06, 2010

At this point Bedard or possibly McDavid will be the only ones to match or pass him. McDavid already missed out on 2018 & 2022, leaving him with only 2026, 2030, 2034 and a small chance at 2038 if he's still elite at 41.

Bedard could potentially play in 2026, 2030, 2034, 2038 and 2042, depending on how his career goes.

Crosby & Doughty would've likely made it to 4 games had the NHL done the right thing and gone in 2018 & 2022.

Edit: I'll add Cale Maker. Could possibly play in 2026/2030/2034/2038.

 

[seventieslord]

Among the top goal scoring defensemen of all time, King Clancy at #60 is the first to have a higher share of goals than Weber, with 137 out of his 287 points (47.7%) being goals. Of course, half of his career was before the forward pass, and almost all of it prior to secondary assists being awarded: pre-O6 NHL make for quite different environments than those of Weber.

Flash Hollett was only 9 years younger than King Clancy but did more in the NHL during periods when secondary assists were awarded. 132 out of his 313 points, or 42%, were goals.

Sheldon Souray is the first modern player I find that approaches Weber’s 38% goal ratio, but still falls short with 109/300 (36.3%). Just a few spots below him, however, there’s Reg Fleming whose entire NHL career was in the O6 era, with 108/240 points being goals: 45%.


The first post-expansion player I find among the top goal-scoring defensemen of all time…

#380 Andy Delmore. Born in 1976, in 2002-03 he tied Lidstrom and Gonchar for most goals by a defenseman with 18. Delmore played 283 NHL games, scored 43 goals and 58 assists for a total of 101 points: 42.6% of his points being goals.

Clancy was a forward at the start of his career, which probably affects this number. Hollett also intermittently switched to forward, though we don't really know the full extent of it. I'm not surprised either of them shows up high when looking at goals vs. assists.

 

[The Panther]

McDavid already missed out on 2018 & 2022, leaving him with only 2026, 2030, 2034 and a small chance at 2038 if he's still elite at 41.

The fact that we're never going to see Crosby play with McDavid in international hockey, and we're never going to McDavid in his prime in a best-on-best tournament, is just one more thing to add to the steaming pile of feces that is Gary Bettman's NHL career.

 

[The Panther]

He did get ridiculous ice time, you know we've already been through this, much more ice time than prime-aged Sundin on the Leafs for instance.

During the period I highlighted (over 100 GP), Messier was playing 1 minute more per-game than Sundin.

If you've played any type of ball sport on any type of level you know that if you play a shit ton of minutes you will score more, though your overall impact may still be negative because of fatigue or laziness or overall suckage.

How was Messier's "overall impact" negative? He was a top-15 NHL scorer over these 100+ games, at age 36-37. Every single player ahead of him in that top-15 (except Selanne) played on better teams---mostly, FAR better teams.

Messier was -18 at evens over the designated period, while the Canucks as a whole were -45 (total goals) over those 105 games. Seems fair.

Who exactly do you think should have been taking a few minutes per game away from Messier at center? Your choices are Scatchard, Sillinger, Walker, Zezel, Hendrickson, Holden, or the corpse of Dave Gagner? (Bertuzzi got 32 games in during this period.)

 

[FerrisRox]

He did get ridiculous ice time, you know we've already been through this, much more ice time than prime-aged Sundin on the Leafs for instance.

If you look at that Canucks roster and look at the centres this isn't really much of mystery.

Messier logged that ice time because the other option was giving more time to Harry York, Lonny Bohonos and Dave Gagner. It's a pretty easy choice.

 

[Voight]

The fact that we're never going to see Crosby play with McDavid in international hockey, and we're never going to McDavid in his prime in a best-on-best tournament, is just one more thing to add to the steaming pile of feces that is Gary Bettman's NHL career.

Both of those things could happen in 2026. Crosby's contract expires in 2025, I imagine he'll stick around for at least one more season for the chance to play in the Olympics again and retire with Malkin (likely retiring at the end of the 2026 season when his contract is finished). Crosby will likely get picked for Team Canada even if he loses a couple steps.

McDavid will be 29 so hell still be firmly in his prime.

(Obviously dependant on both being healthy and Crosby playing at a high enough level)

 

[seventieslord]

For the last 79 consecutive seasons, either Gordie Howe, Marcel Dionne or Jaromir Jagr has been playing professional hockey.

 

[frisco]

For the last 79 consecutive seasons, either Gordie Howe, Marcel Dionne or Jaromir Jagr has been playing professional hockey.

Dionne has to hang 'em up pretty soon...Oh, Jagr's still playing?

My Best-Carey

 

[sr edler]

How was Messier's "overall impact" negative?

We've been through this so many times on this board. Did you watch him much or anything in Vancouver? He was super lazy defensively and his famous physicality and intimidation game from his early career was simply not there, he looked like a disengaged church mouse high on stat padding. I realise Messier was amazing with the Oilers and first stint Rangers but he was just not that player in Van, or even remotely close, much like Ovechkin the last few years has been lightyears from the early peak version. Current year Ovi is almost a parody of himself despite leading his team in scoring.

 

[sr edler]

If you look at that Canucks roster and look at the centres this isn't really much of mystery.

The question here isn't how good Messier was compared to his teammates (btw him and Keenan chased away some quality players from the org), the question is what was his level of overall impact. If you just look at his offensive numbers and age in a vacuum, then yes, I agree that's not terrible numbers for a senior player approaching his 40s, but you still have to apply proper context and scrutiny. Anyone who watched him in Van could see he was lightyears from the Oilers/early 90s Rangers player, particularly regarding his 200 foot game and his famous physicality. He was floating around and didn't scare/intimidate/punish anyone.

 

[carjackmalone]

74-75 penguins had 9
20 goal scorers on their roster that season

Is it a record??

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

74-75 penguins had 9
20 goal scorers on their roster that season

Is it a record??

the record setting 1971 bruins had ten
the entire top nine, plus orr

 

[FerrisRox]

The question here isn't how good Messier was compared to his teammates (btw him and Keenan chased away some quality players from the org), the question is what was his level of overall impact. If you just look at his offensive numbers and age in a vacuum, then yes, I agree that's not terrible numbers for a senior player approaching his 40s, but you still have to apply proper context and scrutiny. Anyone who watched him in Van could see he was lightyears from the Oilers/early 90s Rangers player, particularly regarding his 200 foot game and his famous physicality. He was floating around and didn't scare/intimidate/punish anyone.

I don't know why you're telling me this.

I was responding to a post about Messier's ice time, and I responded by pointing out that he logged all that ice because of how poor the other centres on the roster were.

You're talking about Messier's level being below New York or Edmonton. No kidding, do you think there's anyone here disputing that? I'm not sure who or what you're responding to, but it's not my post.

 

[The Panther]

the record setting 1971 bruins had ten
the entire top nine, plus orr

The 1978 Bruins had 11.

The 1971 Bruins had 10.

 

[FerrisRox]

For the last 79 consecutive seasons, either Gordie Howe, Marcel Dionne or Jaromir Jagr has been playing professional hockey.

I didn't know until right this moment that Jagr played professionally at 16 (and led his team in scoring at 17) before being drafted.

I had always thought he was playing on a Kladno junior team those years.

 

[Mohar Ikram]

Speaking of defencemen, I have a question: How many defencemen who scored 50 or more points in a season SIX TIMES or more are NOT in the Hall of Fame?

So far, I've got (with active players in bold)... I''m 99% sure this is all of them:

-- Mathieu Schneider x 6
-- Dave Babych x 6
-- Dan Boyle x 6
-- Victor Hedman x 6
-- Paul Reinhart x 7
-- Steve Duchesne x 7
-- Roman Josi x 7
-- Erik Karlsson x 7
-- Brent Burns x 7
-- Jeff Brown x 8
-- Gary Suter x 8
-- Reed Larson x 9
-- Sergei Gonchar x 9

So, basically all of the active guys --- Hedman, Josi, Karlsson, Burns --- are Hall of Fame locks, right? Maybe Burns is more like 50-50 (?), but anyway they're all in, more or less.

Obviously, 50 points in 1982 or whatever is not the same as in 1968 or 2012, but anyway do you think any of these non-Hall guys are deserving?

Despite era, I have to admit I'm impressed by Reed Larson hitting 50 points NINE times. That's pretty great at the NHL level. Not a Hall of Famer, though.

I think Gonchar needs to be in the Hall of Fame.

Just a short answer here because I don't think this is the right thread to discuss.

Gonchar and Suter need to be in. Far far shots for Duchesne. Others are nope.

 

[Voight]

the record setting 1971 bruins had ten
the entire top nine, plus orr

Isn't them having 7 guys in the top 10 points a record too? If so, who's 2nd and 3rd on that list?

 

[carjackmalone]

Isn't them having 7 guys in the top 10 points a record too? If so, who's 2nd and 3rd on that list?

Bobby Hull?

 

[Voight]

Bobby Hull?

I meant teams with multiple guys in the top 10 for scoring.

 

[Kahvi]

After 32 games this season, the Flames best PP goal scorer has more SH goals than PP goals.

Spoiler: Stats

Yegor Sharangovich has 1 PP goal, and is tied with 10 other Flames for PP goal scoring. He has 2 SH goals.

Affer 43 games this still holds, and it's actually even better. Sharangovich and Coleman are tied (with other players) with 2PP goals. Sharangovich has 3 SH goals, and Coleman 4 SH goals.