NYR Top Defensemen of All-Time (Rules & Preliminary Discussion)

[Greg02]

Didn't Sather also once say something like if he had the budget of the Rangers, he'd win the cup every year?

 

[SupersonicMonkey*]

Brian Leetch
Brad Park
Ron Greschner
Ivan "Ching" Johnson
Harry Howell
Ehrhardt "Ott" Heller
James Patrick
Dave Maloney
Jim Neilson
Walter "Babe" Pratt
Rod Seiling

 

[Vickers8]

Just to mention Larry Sachurak, one of the 1st dmen to score 20 goals, had the hardest slapshot I ever saw, he would take a slapper from center ice and the goaltender would duck for his life, was horrible defensively...

 

[Crease]

Just to mention Larry Sachurak, one of the 1st dmen to score 20 goals, had the hardest slapshot I ever saw, he would take a slapper from center ice and the goaltender would duck for his life, was horrible defensively...

Just looked up his numbers. Jeez. Out of the league by 26. That bad in his own zone, huh?

 

[Vickers8]

Just looked up his numbers. Jeez. Out of the league by 26. That bad in his own zone, huh?

Yeah Crease, but wow what a shot Chara had nothing on him

 

[chosen]

Just to mention Larry Sachurak, one of the 1st dmen to score 20 goals, had the hardest slapshot I ever saw, he would take a slapper from center ice and the goaltender would duck for his life, was horrible defensively...

Dennis Hull had the hardest slapshot I ever saw.

One time in MSG his shot was deflected and went in the upper deck.

Another time he shot from outside the blue line. Giacomin never saw it. It hit Eddie in the forehead and he didn't even move. About 3 seconds later, Eddie fell backwards. He was unconscious on his feet. Remember, no masks then. Pretty amazing.

 

[alkurtz]

And Bobby Hull also: only player I ever saw who goalies were afraid of (especially in the days before masks). Remember a game probably circa 1965 at the old MSG when slap shots with wickedly curved sticks were all the rage when Hull took a shot from just outside the blue line that you could see Giacomin cringe on before it powered past him and into the net.

 

[Vickers8]

Dennis Hull had the hardest slapshot I ever saw.

One time in MSG his shot was deflected and went in the upper deck.

Another time he shot from outside the blue line. Giacomin never saw it. It hit Eddie in the forehead and he didn't even move. About 3 seconds later, Eddie fell backwards. He was unconscious on his feet. Remember, no masks then. Pretty amazing.

Yeah its debatable, I thought Bobby had a harder shot, but Sach had the hardest...my father took me to Skateland the last year before Eddie starting wearing a mask, I stood right behind the glass behind him, and thats when the banana curve sticks started, I couldn't believe the guts to stay in there with the likes of Rod Gilbert's slapshot whizzing past your head

 

[Crease]

For what its worth (and probably not alot), Rod Seiling is the career +/- leader among Rangers defensemen. Keep in mind the stat was introduced in 1967-68, so Seiling, Nelson, Brown and Howell's numbers are incomplete. It also completely excludes our pre-Expansion candidates. Threw penalty minutes per game in the table too.

[table="css=transp;head"]Player | From | To | GP | +/- | PIM/G
Rod Seiling | 1963-1964 | 1974-1975 | 644 | 208 | 0.66
Brad Park | 1968-1969 | 1975-1976 | 465 | 173 | 1.59
Jim Neilson | 1962-1963 | 1973-1974 | 810 | 146 | 0.95
Dale Rolfe | 1970-1971 | 1974-1975 | 244 | 121 | 1.02
Barry Beck | 1979-1980 | 1985-1986 | 415 | 74 | 1.87
James Patrick | 1983-1984 | 1993-1994 | 671 | 70 | 0.81
Dave Maloney | 1974-1975 | 1984-1985 | 605 | 69 | 1.84
Marek Malik | 2005-2006 | 2007-2008 | 185 | 67 | 1.06
Jeff Beukeboom | 1991-1992 | 1998-1999 | 520 | 63 | 2.23
Reijo Ruotsalainen | 1981-1982 | 1985-1986 | 389 | 57 | 0.4
Ryan McDonagh | 2010-2011 | 2012-2013 | 169 | 54 | 0.47
Arnie Brown | 1964-1965 | 1970-1971 | 460 | 46 | 1.18
Michal Rozsival | 2005-2006 | 2010-2011 | 432 | 44 | 0.87
Ab Demarco Jr. | 1969-1970 | 1972-1973 | 104 | 34 | 0.18
Michael Sauer | 2008-2009 | 2011-2012 | 98 | 28 | 0.98
Mark Hardy | 1987-1988 | 1992-1993 | 284 | 25 | 1.44
Brian Leetch | 1987-1988 | 2003-2004 | 1129 | 24 | 0.47
Andre Dore | 1978-1979 | 1984-1985 | 139 | 23 | 1.1
Anton Stralman | 2011-2012 | 2012-2013 | 101 | 23 | 0.36
Darius Kasparaitis | 2002-2003 | 2006-2007 | 215 | 22 | 1.21
Alexander Karpovtsev | 1993-1994 | 1998-1999 | 280 | 21 | 0.75
Tim Horton | 1969-1970 | 1970-1971 | 93 | 21 | 0.78
Kevin Lowe | 1992-1993 | 1995-1996 | 217 | 20 | 1.21
Ulf Samuelsson | 1995-1996 | 1998-1999 | 287 | 19 | 1.66
Sergei Zubov | 1992-1993 | 1994-1995 | 165 | 17 | 0.37
Gary Doak | 1971-1972 | 1971-1972 | 49 | 16 | 1.1
Harry Howell | 1952-1953 | 1968-1969 | 1160 | 14 | 0.99
Larry Brown | 1969-1970 | 1970-1971 | 46 | 14 | 0.39
Joe Cirella | 1990-1991 | 1992-1993 | 141 | 13 | 1.83
Cory Cross | 2002-2003 | 2002-2003 | 26 | 13 | 0.62
[/table]

 

[chosen]

And Bobby Hull also: only player I ever saw who goalies were afraid of (especially in the days before masks). Remember a game probably circa 1965 at the old MSG when slap shots with wickedly curved sticks were all the rage when Hull took a shot from just outside the blue line that you could see Giacomin cringe on before it powered past him and into the net.

I thought Dennis had a harder shot, but he had zero accuracy. I thought that made him scarier to a goalie. Kind of like a pitcher who is wild.

With the banana sticks you would see pucks curve and dip too. That is why they got rid of them.

 

[bernmeister]

Staying on the topic of Coulter....

The Rangers traded away Seibert for Coulter straight up, when both players were in their primes. That should say something, though Seibert had a reputation for being difficult to deal with during contract negotiations. Could that have been a factor as well?

The 1940 team used the following pairs:

Art Coulter - Muzz Patrick
Babe Pratt - Ott Heller

To protect leads they would bump Heller up to create a shutdown pair.

Clint Smith had this to say about Coulter:

Keep up these useful insights, Crease.
You'll be bucking RB for our most valuable if you keep it up.

 

[eco's bones]

Heh. One of the reasons I chose Defensemen for the second project was because the research process is so different than for Centers. Wingers would have been too similar and I wanted to keep things fresh.

Point totals don't tell much of a story here because A) it ignores a crucial job responsibility of all defensemen and B) defensemen from the pre-War era simply didn't score all that much.

For the high-end guys in our universe I've been getting a pretty useful picture by comparing AST/Norris finishes. This approach has limited usefulness when trying to compare the guys who had solid but unspectacular careers. I haven't quite solved this problem yet so any suggestions are welcome.

Getting back to the high-end guys for a minute, another useful tactic is to compare relative competition. Take Eddie Shore out of the equation and Art Coulter suddenly has 4x AST recognition. Does Park win 2 or 3 Norrises in an Orr-less league? These are hypotheticals of course but I still think they are worth at least considering. By the way, the assumption I am operating with is that Norris and AST voting is a good indicator of defensive prowess, at least prior to the Orr era.

Finally we consider things like longevity, peak, and career value. Does 15+ years of very solid service outweigh 5 years of extraordinairy performance. How much does 1 Norris and a couple of AST compare to 3 AST and a Cup? I make these resumes up with no specific players in mind just to make the point: I think the Round 2 voting discussion for Defensemen is going to be more interesting and probably more contentious than Round 2 for Centers was because of the subjective nature of rating defensive players. I'm looking forward to it.

You need to bring Stan Fischler into the mix. He wrote a whole raft of hockey related books back in the 60's and 70's--a lot of them dealt with pre WW II hockey history--his hockey encyclopedia would be a help here for some. The other thing with Stan is his own viewing of the game goes back into the 1940's.

 

[Greg02]

The big problem with using Stan Fischler as a resource is his opinions tend to be very unorthodox.

 

[eco's bones]

The big problem with using Stan Fischler as a resource is his opinions tend to be very unorthodox.

That is true--he's always been an attention seeker. Even so there are insights that can be gleaned from all his years of writing, reporting and commentating.

 

[ncmike]

Oh yeah, objectively I completely get the fact that Brad Park was the second best defenseman in the game when by far the best defenseman ever was dominating the league. I guess my question is more like even knowing that, can you bring yourself to rank him above Leetch?

Yes. Definitely. While both players offense are close, parks defensive play was way better.

 

[Crease]

I'm okay with incorporating Fischler's insight, though I do agree with Greg that a lot of his opinions are seemingly contrarian. A few of his books are available for free via Google Books. As a start, he's what he had to say about Barry Beck:

Few players enter the National Hockey League with more promise but leave with more disappointment than Barry Beck...

Beck arrived on Broadway as the so-called savior of a Rangers team in search of the Stanley Cup. Instead, Beck's stay with the Blueshirts was marked by misery. Injuries sidelined him at key moments, such as the 1984 playoffs versus the Islanders, and controversy surrounded his performance. In one incendiary practice session, coach Herb Brooks withered Beck with criticism. On other occasions, Rangers television analyst Bill Chadwick constantly harped on Beck's reluctance to use his vaunted slap shot.

"Shoot the puck, Barry, shoot the puck!" was Chadwick's mantra, which soon became a chant around Madison Square Garden.

Unfortunately for Beck, he never came close to achieving the level expected of him, and he finally retired in 1986.

 

[Crease]

A charming anecdote from Eric Whitehead's The Patricks: Hockey's Royal Family

One of the vexing problems was the matter of expenses on road trips. Unfortunately, only New York had nickel subways, and to help keep taxi expenses under control [Lester Patrick] appointed "cab captains". One man for each cabful of four was delegated to be in charge of the fares. One of the cap captains was Art Coulter, who was known as a nice guy and a free spender during social hours, and when the Rangers got back to New York after one road trip, Lester assembled his captains and said, "Okay, boys. What do I owe you for cab fares?"

The chits of the other three captains ranged from $6.00 to $8.75, but Coulter's tab added up to $12.75. "Art," said Lester, perusing the bill, "why is your bill so much larger than the others?" "Well, Lester," said Coulter, "you've told us that we're in the big leagues now, so I tip like a big-leaguer."

 

[Crease]

Article about Gadsby's team MVP award:

Although little Gump Worsley was voted the most valuable player in the league halfway through the season, New York's hockey writers yesterday selected Bill Gadsby as the Rangers' MVP in this, his first full season as a Blue.

The offensive-minded defensemen, by finishing ahead of the goaltender in a close vote, becomes the 13th winner of the West Side Trophy. He will be presented with a Paul Revere sterling bowl and a $50 savings bond prior to the final game of the season against the CAnadiens here Sunday night.

Now in his tenth season in the NHL, although he won't be 29 until August, Gadsby is a leading candidate for All-Star defenseman. He has scored 50 points, and, with 41 assists, is only two shy of the NHL mark for defensemen set last year by Montreal's Doug Harvey. Gadsby has already broken club records for total points and assists by a defenseman.

Gadsby succeeds Danny Lewicki as West Side Trophy winner. Other MVPs, begnining in 1943-44, were Ott Heller and Bryan Hextall (tie), Ab DeMarco, Chuck Rayner, Rayner again, Buddy O'Connor, Edgar Laprade, Laprade-Rayner (tie), Bones Raleigh, Hy Buller, PAul Ronty, and Wally Hergesheimer.

 

[Crease]

Some good tidbits are available in John Kreiser's The New York Rangers: Broadway's Longest Running Hit

From the beginnings of hockey, there's always been a role for the tough defensemen - one who would get himself involved in front of the net and in the corners. The Rangers had such a stalwart in Ivan "Ching" Johnson, a 28-year-old who came on board at the start of the franchise.

The number that tells the most about his style of pplay is the penalty-minutes count: 798 in 403 games. Johnson led the team in penalty minutes in eight of his 11 seasons with the Blueshirt.

Four times an NHL All-Star, Johnson was enshrined into the Hockey Hall of Fame along with teammate Frank Boucher in 1958.

While he was on the roster for a full season, the Rangers never missed postseason play. It was more than a coincidence, because Coulter was regarded as a solid, stay-at-home, hard-hitting type of defenseman who could score the odd goal or two.

Coulter, Bill Cook, and Mark Messier are the only Rangers to captain Stanley Cup teams on Broadway.

Perhaps more than any other defenseman of his era, Babe Pratt believed that the best defense was a good offense; by the standards of his time, Pratt may have been the game's premier offensive defensemen.

Pratt was paired with Heller during the 1939-40 season and the two were on the ice for only 17 goals against during the 48-game schedule.

Erhardt Henry (Ott) Heller lasted 15 years with the Rangers, a number surpassed only by Rod Gilbert, Harry Howell, and Brian Leetch. Heller came up in 1931, and was the only player in history to be a part of the second and third Ranger Stanley Cup teams.

When he first arrived, he was paired with Ching Johnson, allowing the veteran Johnson to rush the puck a little more, then teamed with Babe Pratt to form an almost impregnable duo during the 1939-40 championship defense. He played solid defense, and still managed to score 55 goals during his tenure. Heller's best season offensively was one of the Rangers worst seasons -- 1943-44, when he scored eight goals and added 27 assists for 35 points (all career highs). He was captain of the team for three seasons (1942-45).

 

[Drewbackatu*]

Yes. Definitely. While both players offense are close, parks defensive play was way better.

Right on the money. I have been attending games since 1960 and in my opinion, Brad Park was much better defensively than Brian Leetch ever was. He also had an element of physicality and nastiness to his game.
As the saying goes, "6 of one, a 1/2 dozen of the other."

 

[mike14]

A charming anecdote from Eric Whitehead's The Patricks: Hockey's Royal Family

Just that quote on its own pretty much puts him in the top 3 for mine
Damn, but you do great work digging all this stuff up

 

[Crease]

Ott Heller was a big reason why the Rangers pushed past Montreal on their way to the Stanley Cup finals in 1932:

He was out practicing today with the rest of the Ranger crew, having a big time whirling up and down the rink in Madison Square Garden. On the same ice last night, he skated alone twice through the Canadiens' defense to score two goals and clinch the last game the Rangers needed to get into the finals. Single handed he won the third game of the series with the same kind of a dash for the only goal of the game.

Gray headed Lester Patrick, pilot of the Ranger squad, proudly watched him from the sidelines. "He's a great kid," he said, "a nice boy. He's ambitious and he minds his own business, has no bad habits, and he listens well. Old Ching Johnson has taught him a lot. Of course he's still in the rookie stage but he's a great prospect and especially fast. He scored those goals alone because right now he goes best straight ahead. Next year he'll learn a lot of inside hockey, and after that he'll be a great player."

More details of the Game 3 goal, which gave the Rangers a 2 games to 1 lead in the Best of 5 series. This was the night after a 3OT game:

Heller, the Rangers utility player who only came up from the Canadian-American League in mid-season, tallied on a rather surprising play right at the start of the second period. He started down the ice all alone and apparently with no chance to get anywhere but he slipped right through the Canadien defense and had plenty of time in which to make his shot.

Torey Krug pulled an Ott Heller against us.

 

[Crease]

Having trouble figuring out where Greschner and James Patrick fit in all this. Any thoughts?

 

[Vickers8]

Having trouble figuring out where Greschner and James Patrick fit in all this. Any thoughts?

Patrick's biggest drawback was he wasn't physical at all, Greschner was versatile and played center too

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I am becoming a big fan of Ching Johnson.

A few notes:
* A career Ranger and his All-Star voting is as good as anyone else on the list
* The Rangers best defensemen for TWO Stanley Cup championships (1928 and 1933)
* In 1932 he loses the Hart by ONE vote to Howie Morenz. Led all players at all positions in total All Star votes
* TDMM awarded him the Retro-Norris in 1932. More here
* Beat out a PRIME King Clancey for 1st AST THREE times. Eddie Shore was the other 1st Teamer all three times
* Frank Boucher and Bun Cook put him on their all-time teams, along with Eddie Shore

By the way, Howell is starting to fall in my preliminary list. Does anyone else feel the same way?

Howell had incredible longevity and a Norris (rare). Despite all those games played, he has one standout season (1967) and his teams didn't do much in the playoffs.

Conversely, Art Coulter had an impressive high-end 7 year stint with the Rangers. With Ching Johnson and Frank Boucher retiring, the Rangers traded for Coulter so that he could lead the franchise. He was captain and probably the best player on the 1940 Rangers team that won the Cup. He was Second Team All Star three straight seasons, finishing ahead of Earl Seibert all three times.

Good job on the center list, guys.

Just a hit and run comment: It might seem like you have a disproportionate number of pre-WW2 Rangers on your list. Boucher the top center and Ching Johnson (definitely) and Art Coulter (probably) as top 5 defensemen.

But it makes sense when you think about it - the Rangers were one of the best teams in hockey before World War 2, winning 3 Cups over an era when there wasn't a real dynasty. World War 2 absolutely decimated the team, and they never really captured their former glory. The Rangers and Bruins were the teams most decimated by World War 2, and it really took until the 1970s until either team was consistently competitive again.