Proposal: NYR-ANA

[FoxysExpensiveNYDigs]

Kakko: 7-4-11

As a comp, let's look at Max Jones, whom the Ducks chose 24th OA in 2016. By virtually all accounts, Jones has not panned out. He's recently been moved to the top six (perhaps to be showcased for a deadline deal) and his offense has improved slightly because he's playing with better linemates. But generally, he's just a guy.

Jones: 5-7-12

Should Jones "be part of a package for a star player coming back long term"? Perhaps, but he's clearly not the centerpiece of a deal. Nor is Kakko.

40 ES points last year. Excellent definsively. Not at all comparable to Jones.

 

[bernmeister]

Some points that you clearly don't understand because you know very little about the Ducks roster or team needs, yet you're pretending that you know better than the many Ducks fans in this conversation.

1. Ducks don't need goalies. We have Gibson and Dostal. Ducks are fine in goal.
2. Zegras is still an RFA after his 3 year bridge deal. That increases his value a great deal.
3. Zegras can't walk away at the end of his current contract for the above reason.
4. I'm willing to bet that the majority of people here expect Zegras' production to go up. He missed training camp, was injured most of the season, and when he wasn't injured was adjusting to a new system and coach. I certainly expect his production to go up based on past performance and his overall potential.
5. Your proposal was garbage. Trying to defend it doesn't make it not garbage.

Focusing on main pts you raised [thank you, agree or disagree]...

1. Ducks don't need goalies. We have Gibson and Dostal. Ducks are fine in goal.
Nice to be alerted to emergence of Dostal. Gibson is functional placeholder but you could do better for less cost, and reasonable to postulate, as has been the case earlier this season, club like EDM would pay b'c they are thin there. So it may be reasonable to ask what scenario = best overall profit for Ducks.


2. Zegras is still an RFA after his 3 year bridge deal. That increases his value a great deal.
Agreed. But he is still gonna earn ballpark like I said above which is ballpark what Shesty would get. Shesty listed today at 28. You would add 3-4 low end and likely 6-ish on high end of term on his next deal. Honestly, how much dif is that for Zegras in the short term? Also see below next #.

3. Zegras can't walk away at the end of his current contract for the above reason.
True dat. But setting aside it is preferable to have/keep guys who want to be here, and whether or not he will let you know he is/is not a happy camper, one thing is not really disputable.
Yes, Zeg production will go up which is legit attractive; flip side of same coin is cost to sign [forget acquire, to sign] goes up also.

There is a big equation here: cost of player/production/term
Arguably, even if he ups his production, unless he turns into Matthews overnight, the loss of term here is the biggest factor.

Think of it this way based on the experience Rs had w/Buchnevich
I begged them to sell high while he had term
At that pt, his production was less than what it would be later, but THAT WAS IRRELEVANT AND SUBORDINATE AS TO VALUE, b'c he had more term and cost less at that earlier stage.
Rs did not listen to me.
They held on to him despite fact we were not then contenders, let alone serious ones.
And what did we get as a result of this approach? Bupkis.
Does that mean ANA should rush to deal Z now, or even deal him at all now. NO.
But it is fair to acknowledge the above suggest offers may be better now than later. [Presuming he is ordinary productive and does not turn into Nylander or Matthews].

4. I'm willing to bet that the majority of people here expect Zegras' production to go up. He missed training camp, was injured most of the season, and when he wasn't injured was adjusting to a new system and coach. I certainly expect his production to go up based on past performance and his overall potential.
Yes, I've covered that see above.

-----------
Getting back to currency, while Shesty arguably DOES match, he is still not a fit.
Fair 'nuf.

AFAIC, we are back to Othmannn + Berard ++ for Zegras +

 

[Zegs2sendhelp]

Focusing on main pts you raised [thank you, agree or disagree]...

1. Ducks don't need goalies. We have Gibson and Dostal. Ducks are fine in goal.
Nice to be alerted to emergence of Dostal. Gibson is functional placeholder but you could do better for less cost, and reasonable to postulate, as has been the case earlier this season, club like EDM would pay b'c they are thin there. So it may be reasonable to ask what scenario = best overall profit for Ducks.


2. Zegras is still an RFA after his 3 year bridge deal. That increases his value a great deal.
Agreed. But he is still gonna earn ballpark like I said above which is ballpark what Shesty would get. Shesty listed today at 28. You would add 3-4 low end and likely 6-ish on high end of term on his next deal. Honestly, how much dif is that for Zegras in the short term? Also see below next #.

3. Zegras can't walk away at the end of his current contract for the above reason.
True dat. But setting aside it is preferable to have/keep guys who want to be here, and whether or not he will let you know he is/is not a happy camper, one thing is not really disputable.
Yes, Zeg production will go up which is legit attractive; flip side of same coin is cost to sign [forget acquire, to sign] goes up also.

There is a big equation here: cost of player/production/term
Arguably, even if he ups his production, unless he turns into Matthews overnight, the loss of term here is the biggest factor.

Think of it this way based on the experience Rs had w/Buchnevich
I begged them to sell high while he had term
At that pt, his production was less than what it would be later, but THAT WAS IRRELEVANT AND SUBORDINATE AS TO VALUE, b'c he had more term and cost less at that earlier stage.
Rs did not listen to me.
They held on to him despite fact we were not then contenders, let alone serious ones.
And what did we get as a result of this approach? Bupkis.
Does that mean ANA should rush to deal Z now, or even deal him at all now. NO.
But it is fair to acknowledge the above suggest offers may be better now than later. [Presuming he is ordinary productive and does not turn into Nylander or Matthews].

4. I'm willing to bet that the majority of people here expect Zegras' production to go up. He missed training camp, was injured most of the season, and when he wasn't injured was adjusting to a new system and coach. I certainly expect his production to go up based on past performance and his overall potential.
Yes, I've covered that see above.

-----------
Getting back to currency, while Shesty arguably DOES match, he is still not a fit.
Fair 'nuf.

AFAIC, we are back to Othmannn + Berard ++ for Zegras +

Ya prob starts with Othmann and a 1st

 

[bernmeister]

So a #2OA pick in his draft+5 season who hasn't really panned out but might evolve into a NHL-caliber player should earn the Rangers a star player in any trade?

It is not fair to say "hasn't really panned out" in the totality of circumstances.
As I've explained, he has demonstrated sufficient production earlier w/kid line and recently w/Cuylle.
Chemistry is important.
Zig zagging him thruout lineup is counterproductive.

Also he is NHL caliber already.

And fair for NY to try to add to KK than move him

 

[Crazy8oooo]

Kakko: 7-4-11

As a comp, let's look at Max Jones, whom the Ducks chose 24th OA in 2016. By virtually all accounts, Jones has not panned out. He's recently been moved to the top six (perhaps to be showcased for a deadline deal) and his offense has improved slightly because he's playing with better linemates. But generally, he's just a guy.

Jones: 5-7-12

Should Jones "be part of a package for a star player coming back long term"? Perhaps, but he's clearly not the centerpiece of a deal. Nor is Kakko.

While I agree that Kakko may be getting overvalued at this point in his career, using his current season stats is not a genuine stance. He’s shown he can do more. Your comparison to Jones is off base as he’s never shown he can be more. Think of Zegras and his terrible season. Should he be judged by that or by the stats he posted the previous years?

 

[smoneil]

You are underselling the Ducks guys.

I said earlier that the value was very close, but that I’d prefer lower cost options. I would personally go in a different direction, but I can acknowledge a deal is probably in that neighborhood. I think that’s a fair take.

Calling Henrique and Vatrano 3rd line guys is stupid. Certainly, their numbers would decline in reduced rolls but they have shown to be that caliber of player. Not acknowledging that while ranting about Kakko’s even strength numbers and “underlying stats” just show you to be a major homer. Would Kakko’s numbers be better if he were on a PP1? Sure. So would Brodzinski’s. Kakko has not shown the ability to excel at that roll in his young career. Will he in the future? I don’t know. What I do know is that Vatrano has excelled in a top 6, and with Zib/Kreider, while Kakko has not. And no, that doesn’t mean I need four paragraphs about Kappo “underlying stats” Kakko who always produces very underwhelming numbers. He’s a 30-40 point two way winger who doesn’t play special teams. I think he likely becomes a 40-50 point winger who may or may not play special teams. Don’t fall into the trap of beating up another teams guys while wildly overrating your own. You don’t want to make this deal which is understandable. I don’t either. That doesn’t mean we can’t acknowledge what Henrique and Vatrano would add. We can also want to keep Kakko without talking like he’s suddenly going to flip a switch going from 11 points in 40 games to becoming Mikko Rantanen. As if some undeserved PP time is going to make him a 70+ point player.

I'm not underselling anything.

Fact 1: Henrique and Vatrano will not see PP1 time on the Rangers. Those 5 spots are cemented in place and have been for at least two years.

Fact 2: Without top line minutes and PP production, Vatrano and Henrique's stat lines (at best) suddenly look a lot like Kakko's stat line last season.

Those aren't "sells." They are facts.

If you want to talk about things that are debatable, we can look at your claim that Vatrano "excelled" with Zib and Kreider. They put up points in the playoffs, yeah. They also leaked goals against and spent long stretches pinned in their own zone. Without the Kid Line that year, the Rangers would have been out in rounds one or two.

Smart teams don't pay 1st line prices for 3rd line players who put up 2nd line production because they are being played 1st line minutes and PP.

 

[bernmeister]

No matter how much you want to defend your honor here., 1 year of a 28 year old goalie to a rebuilding team is NOT even close to fair value for a 22/23 year old center who’s already shown potential to become a star player and who has several years more of team control. Heck, it isn’t good for a non rebuilding team either.

You repeatedly preach that the Rangers should not give up youth for vets while they’re a win now team, yet somehow in your mind, it’s a great idea for the rebuilding Ducks to do just that. Maybe use your same logic for other teams that you do with your own and you may just see how silly/ridiculous this proposal of yours really is.

You fail to look at considerations which I have emphasized w/today's posts.
Again if not the currency ANA prefers, we can move on, and same is fair as to shoe on the other foot.

But currency -- a dominant bottom line consideration aside -- IT WAS FAIR to ducks for reasons cited.

Shesty at 28 going 3-6 yrs/ish on his next deal is totally doable and the $$ is comparable to what Zegras projects to get.
You guys throwing shade falsely prompt image that Shesty is not 28, but a MAF 38-ish.

Tell it LIKE IT IS, let your conscience be your guide.

 

[Zegs2sendhelp]

I'm not underselling anything.

Fact 1: Henrique and Vatrano will not see PP1 time on the Rangers. Those 5 spots are cemented in place and have been for at least two years.

Fact 2: Without top line minutes and PP production, Vatrano and Henrique's stat lines (at best) suddenly look a lot like Kakko's stat line last season.

Those aren't "sells." They are facts.

If you want to talk about things that are debatable, we can look at your claim that Vatrano "excelled" with Zib and Kreider. They put up points in the playoffs, yeah. They also leaked goals against and spent long stretches pinned in their own zone. Without the Kid Line that year, the Rangers would have been out in rounds one or two.

Smart teams don't pay 1st line prices for 3rd line players who put up 2nd line production because they are being played 1st line minutes and PP.

Def not facts, Henrique has shown he can be productive all over the line up and honestly same for Vatrano.


Henrique is used asa 2nd line player and plays on 2nd power play unit (unless injuries).

 

[smoneil]

What a weird thing to say considering Vatrano and Henrique strengths are at ES...

Not saying they don't do anything at ES. I'm saying their production dips notably if you subtract their PP production (particularly Vatrano). This is kind of important, since neither player will sniff any significant PP time on the Rangers. Based on what they would actually provide to the team, it would be like trading Kakko, a 1st, and a 2nd for two significantly older Kakkos who aren't as good defensively. If Kakko were in his 30s, would YOU pay a 1st and a 2nd rounder for him? I doubt it.

 

[bernmeister]

Kakko's value is dependent on how much confidence Kakko has. When he's confident, he looks good. When he's not confident, he looks like a player you trade aware immediately.

I understand fans want to keep Kakko, but where does he fit? I don't think he wants top be a 3rd line player. I'm not sure he signs his next deal with that intention. It's not working on the top line. Blame Mikka. Blame Kreider. Blame them together. Blame Kakko. But it doesn't work. The powerplay is set for now and he's not sniffing a bigger role here for at least 2 more seasons. It's unfortunate that we don't really know the level of success he can bring, but I'm not seeing that opportunity come his way any time soon.

which is why he should not be forced w/Kreid + Zib
keep him w/Cuylle + functional stopgap Brodz who we may upgrade later

chemistry is important

Also, I said yrs ago we should roll w/what works
Zib at pivot may/may not be good idea.

Why are we adamant about sq peg in round hole w/adding a W?
Why not slide Zib over and try Edstrom there?

 

[bernmeister]

Ya prob starts with Othmann and a 1st

I said Othmann + Berard who is a signif prospect, less than a 1st.

There is room for people of good faith to negotiate here.

My friend, real world compels me to get going and TCB coupla days.
Best to you and all here til then.

 

[Zegs2sendhelp]

Not saying they don't do anything at ES. I'm saying their production dips notably if you subtract their PP production (particularly Vatrano). This is kind of important, since neither player will sniff any significant PP time on the Rangers. Based on what they would actually provide to the team, it would be like trading Kakko, a 1st, and a 2nd for two significantly older Kakkos who aren't as good defensively. If Kakko were in his 30s, would YOU pay a 1st and a 2nd rounder for him? I doubt it.

cept the trade isn’t 1st + 2nd for just Henrique or Vatrano for 1.5 years , it’s both + retention on Henrique.

And teams make these moves all the time, and if you don’t pay that price other teams likely will…. There is no need to move Vatrano, if a team wants him they have to incentivize us to move him

The only thing wrong with the trade is maybe kakko is being undervalued… but he is starting to come off as a reclamation project that you’re hoping can become silfverberg, than a star winger…. And his potential contract might not be realistically doable, he’s going to get a raise most likely

 

[Zegs2sendhelp]

I said Othmann + Berard who is a signif prospect, less than a 1st.

There is room for people of good faith to negotiate here.

My friend, real world compels me to get going and TCB coupla days.
Best to you and all here til then.

Sounds good buddy, I’ll look for your coming at first light on the 5th day.

 

[TGWL]

which is why he should not be forced w/Kreid + Zib
keep him w/Cuylle + functional stopgap Brodz who we may upgrade later

chemistry is important

Also, I said yrs ago we should roll w/what works
Zib at pivot may/may not be good idea.

Why are we adamant about sq peg in round hole w/adding a W?
Why not slide Zib over and try Edstrom there?

The problem is how long do you keep him there with Cuylle and whoever? He's going to want a bigger role and if I'm Kakko, i'm going to hold out and not signing another 2 year deal where I can't bet on himself because the position isn't available.

Not to detail the thread, but there's is no way I'm putting Edstrom on the top line. Rempe has a lot of work to do to be given a permeant 4th line role. As fun as it is to see these giants, I'm not confident that they play more than 30-40% of the games over the next 2 seasons.

 

[smoneil]

Kakko: 7-4-11

As a comp, let's look at Max Jones, whom the Ducks chose 24th OA in 2016. By virtually all accounts, Jones has not panned out. He's recently been moved to the top six (perhaps to be showcased for a deadline deal) and his offense has improved slightly because he's playing with better linemates. But generally, he's just a guy.

Jones: 5-7-12

Should Jones "be part of a package for a star player coming back long term"? Perhaps, but he's clearly not the centerpiece of a deal. Nor is Kakko.

Max Jones is three years older, doesn't have the pedigree, and his career high is less than half of Kakko's career high in scoring. He doesn't have Kakko's defensive game either.

And since so many Anaheim fans want to act like one injury-filled down year is all that matters, I'm assuming Zegras, with his 7 points (and only 4 goals) in 20 games is available for a 3rd rounder and Zac Jones, amirite?

 

[Zegs2sendhelp]

Max Jones is three years older, doesn't have the pedigree, and his career high is less than half of Kakko's career high in scoring. He doesn't have Kakko's defensive game either.

And since so many Anaheim fans want to act like one injury-filled down year is all that matters, I'm assuming Zegras, with his 7 points (and only 4 goals) in 20 games is available for a 3rd rounder and Zac Jones, amirite?

If you read the rangers trade boards or even the trade board zegras threads, you’ll see that’s essentially what’s being offered for zegras most time… and the quotes “haha you think you’ll get that return for a 7 point player “

 

[Crazy8oooo]

You fail to look at considerations which I have emphasized w/today's posts.
Again if not the currency ANA prefers, we can move on, and same is fair as to shoe on the other foot.

But currency -- a dominant bottom line consideration aside -- IT WAS FAIR to ducks for reasons cited.

Shesty at 28 going 3-6 yrs/ish on his next deal is totally doable and the $$ is comparable to what Zegras projects to get.
You guys throwing shade falsely prompt image that Shesty is not 28, but a MAF 38-ish.

Tell it LIKE IT IS, let your conscience be your guide.

I am telling it like it is while you’re gaslighting everyone. There’s a reason not one person has agreed with your proposal and several have called
It out as ridiculous.

It’s great to have differing opinions and debates amongst those, but you’re being completely disingenuous here. You’ve repeatedly doubled down against multiple posters who are telling you how bad the proposal is. Sometimes it’s better to just admit error and move on…

 

[Ducks]

Kakko's draft position is still propping up his value with a lot of people... but I think it's obvious he has more value than Max Jones. I also think that sometimes it takes just takes longer to adjust to the league. Look at William Karlsson for example, it took like 7 years and three teams for him to finally hit his potential. Kakko's still got time to put it together. That said, there are no guarantees and in any redraft Kakko's going much later in the first round. He's going to have an NHL career, last season showed that much, but it's still too early to tell if it's as a bottom six or top six forward.

 

[smoneil]

Def not facts, Henrique has shown he can be productive all over the line up and honestly same for Vatrano.


Henrique is used asa 2nd line player and plays on 2nd power play unit (unless injuries).

You obviously watch your team more than I do, but looking at TOI over the last 10 games, it seems pretty clear that Henrique has been top line and PP1 in at least 9 of them.

And my two statements of fact were that neither guy would get PP1 time in NY (which is not about them, but rather due to the fact that the Rangers have had the same 5 guys on PP1 for two years and they refuse to change it in any way--we've been calling for Laf to replace Zibanejad for weeks on that unit). That IS a fact. And when you take away PP production, Vatrano and Henrique are no better (production wise) than Kakko was last season. And Kakko is much better defensively than Vatrano.

Henrique and Vatrano will have more value to a team that needs them in the lineup AND in the PP. That's not us, so it makes zero sense to pay a price that reflects that PP value when there are other options out there that could do the job the Rangers need them to do for a far lower acquisition cost.

 

[Zegs2sendhelp]

Kakko's draft position is still propping up his value with a lot of people... but I think it's obvious he has more value than Max Jones. I also think that sometimes it takes just takes longer to adjust to the league. Look at William Karlsson for example, it took like 7 years and three teams for him to finally hit his potential. Kakko's still got time to put it together. That said, there are no guarantees and in any redraft Kakko's going much later in the first round. He's going to have an NHL career, last season showed that much, but it's still too early to tell if it's as a bottom six or top six forward.

I think at this point your hoping for a silfverberg with kakko

 

[Ducks]

I think at this point your hoping for a silfverberg with kakko

Prime Silf was a beauty.

 

[bernmeister]

The problem is how long do you keep him there with Cuylle and whoever? He's going to want a bigger role and if I'm Kakko, i'm going to hold out and not signing another 2 year deal where I can't bet on himself because the position isn't available.

Not to detail the thread, but there's is no way I'm putting Edstrom on the top line. Rempe has a lot of work to do to be given a permeant 4th line role. As fun as it is to see these giants, I'm not confident that they play more than 30-40% of the games over the next 2 seasons.

If line is successful, his personal stats-> $$$ -> goes up.
Maybe later in his career he may prefer otherwise but I don't think that'd be an issue now.

The other mathematical opt to trying dif RWs and breaking up Kreid-Zib is to play them as Ws and add a C.

If we keep Tro together w/bread + LaF, and Chytil is out, who is there?

 

[bernmeister]

I am telling it like it is while you’re gaslighting everyone. There’s a reason not one person has agreed with your proposal and several have called
It out as ridiculous.

It’s great to have differing opinions and debates amongst those, but you’re being completely disingenuous here. You’ve repeatedly doubled down against multiple posters who are telling you how bad the proposal is. Sometimes it’s better to just admit error and move on…

When there is actual error, I will admit it.
That is not the case here.
There was real, not made up, facts that matched Shesty to Zegras
so it was ok given that.
Again, both sides have to agree on currency, not value, which is not a fit here, so we move on.

 

[ohcomeonref]

Max Jones is three years older, doesn't have the pedigree, and his career high is less than half of Kakko's career high in scoring. He doesn't have Kakko's defensive game either.

And since so many Anaheim fans want to act like one injury-filled down year is all that matters, I'm assuming Zegras, with his 7 points (and only 4 goals) in 20 games is available for a 3rd rounder and Zac Jones, amirite?

Five years in, his pedigree doesn't mean shit.

 

[Zegs2sendhelp]

You obviously watch your team more than I do, but looking at TOI over the last 10 games, it seems pretty clear that Henrique has been top line and PP1 in at least 9 of them.

And my two statements of fact were that neither guy would get PP1 time in NY (which is not about them, but rather due to the fact that the Rangers have had the same 5 guys on PP1 for two years and they refuse to change it in any way--we've been calling for Laf to replace Zibanejad for weeks on that unit). That IS a fact. And when you take away PP production, Vatrano and Henrique are no better (production wise) than Kakko was last season. And Kakko is much better defensively than Vatrano.

Henrique and Vatrano will have more value to a team that needs them in the lineup AND in the PP. That's not us, so it makes zero sense to pay a price that reflects that PP value when there are other options out there that could do the job the Rangers need them to do for a far lower acquisition cost.

Well we have been pretty beat up, and Henrique also plays both special teams units. He’s been used throughout the line up in Anaheim since he got here, and always sticks around similar production 40-50 point range. I’m sure his production is better due to more mins with our injuries…. But I think most teams want a guy that can produce more as he moves up the line up

I agree that Vatrano doesn’t make a ton of sense for rangers…. But there’s def teams where he does make a lot of sense… I don’t really think they need any of what he brings. And we’d get more value selling him elsewhere.

But I do think Henrique could be a nice add for the rangers…. As he’s kinda a Swiss Army knife player. Would be a good 3c, or winger you can move around the line up…. Good faceoffs guy, solid defensively