Post-Game Talk: Not good enough.

[Messrules11]

I recently re- watched game 7 of ‘87 final vs. Philly and let me tell ya MacTavish was a force in that game. His linemates were Hunter and McSorley and they dominated virtually every shift they took. Look at our 3rd line right now, it’s a f***ing joke, not gonna win shit with these guys.

 

[MoontoScott]

Inexperienced a better word. Skinner should have been onboarding as an NHL back-up. He was always a mid range prospect not elite who had to outkick his coverage.

Your posts about McDavid are kinda strange. He's always been a line driver who's elevated all of his line mates. He's also been the distributor for a big chunk of Draisaitl's production with their line time on Stack Line and PP. He breaks down the opposition coverage with his speed and processor which creates space for finishers like Hyman and Draisaitl.

Canucks have bottled him up. It's a game plan that's working with overplay on McDavid. He's uncharacteristically off. This is a team sport and hard to make a comparison to Gretzky with a stacked team voted the best in NHL history. And McDavid and Draisaitl are deeply connected in shared success with a ton of icetime together which often hollows out a shallow depth team even more. The power play last night which is driven by both players was 0 for 5. Pot one of those and it's a different game. Failing to convert early PP's was a definitive difference in that game. And that, as in all team sports, is a team issue.

Team toughness is an issue too.

Try getting tough with Gretzky when McSorley, Mclelland, Semenko, Messier and Anderson were around. Messier might behead you.

Kane and Nurse are the only fighters on today's team and even then, rarely.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Inexperienced a better word. Skinner should have been onboarding as an NHL back-up. He was always a mid range prospect not elite who had to outkick his coverage.

Your posts about McDavid are kinda strange. He's always been a line driver who's elevated all of his line mates. He's also been the distributor for a big chunk of Draisaitl's production with their line time on Stack Line and PP. He breaks down the opposition coverage with his speed and processor which creates space for finishers like Hyman and Draisaitl.

Canucks have bottled him up. It's a game plan that's working with overplay on McDavid. He's uncharacteristically off. This is a team sport and hard to make a comparison to Gretzky with a stacked team voted the best in NHL history. And McDavid and Draisaitl are deeply connected in shared success with a ton of icetime together which often hollows out a shallow depth team even more. The power play last night which is driven by both players was 0 for 5. Pot one of those and it's a different game. Failing to convert early PP's was a definitive difference in that game. And that, as in all team sports, is a team issue.

McD scoring has been off all season. the argument that McD elevates linemates isn't always so clear as everyseason he seems to get the pick of the litter to play with, and also this season and playoffs the best D pair.

hey, I'm not throwing on McD. he's our captain, our highest paid, he's the best player on Earth who we've just seen be startingly ordinary in this series. We need Superman to throw in his cape once in awhile and Frankly in this series its been Draiman being the hero. I'm trying to think of the last point Connor has had this playoffs without Drai on ice.

Edit. So because I was curious McD's only point without Drai in series has been game 1. McD, own zone, passes back to Bouchard, own zone, who hits Hyman long and Hyman scores on his own good play, rushing puck,, getting best look and just beating goalie. It was hardly even a play by McD.

 

[MoontoScott]

I recently re- watched game 7 of ‘87 final vs. Philly and let me tell ya MacTavish was a force in that game. His linemates were Hunter and McSorley and they dominated virtually every shift they took. Look at our 3rd line right now, it’s a f***ing joke, not gonna win shit with these guys.

He was nicknamed "Mac-Gretzky." Great stick handler and always came to play.

I remember one playoff year that McSnarly scored a couple of big goals against Detroit in a playoff match where the Wings had done a great job of shutting down Gretzky. Somebody on the thread will remember what year I am talking about.

 

[Oilhawks]

Inexperienced a better word. Skinner should have been onboarding as an NHL back-up. He was always a mid range prospect not elite who had to outkick his coverage.

Your posts about McDavid are kinda strange. He's always been a line driver who's elevated all of his line mates. He's also been the distributor for a big chunk of Draisaitl's production with their line time on Stack Line and PP. He breaks down the opposition coverage with his speed and processor which creates space for finishers like Hyman and Draisaitl.

Canucks have bottled him up. It's a game plan that's working with overplay on McDavid. He's uncharacteristically off. This is a team sport and hard to make a comparison to Gretzky with a stacked team voted the best in NHL history. And McDavid and Draisaitl are deeply connected in shared success with a ton of icetime together which often hollows out a shallow depth team even more. The power play last night which is driven by both players was 0 for 5. Pot one of those and it's a different game. Failing to convert early PP's was a definitive difference in that game. And that, as in all team sports, is a team issue.

I think Drive is more going for that McDavid hasn't really taken over many series as might be expected from a generational talent. Aside from LA 2022 and Chicago in 20 (I guess? And the last two games I recall being a bit pedestrian), he hasn't really taken over games. He's been pedestrian relative to expectations. Getting his points, but this Nucks team isn't the first team to "contain" him. It isn't some sort of masterclass. He's a sublime talent but he's not taking over games like Leon has (and Bouchard for that matter, who all the offense is running through).

 

[Behind Enemy Lines]

Team toughness is an issue too.

Try getting tough with Gretzky when McSorley, Mclelland, Semenko, Messier and Anderson were around. Messier might behead you.

Kane and Nurse are the only fighters on today's team and even then, rarely.

Absolutely. They miss functional toughness in the bottom six. Kostin would have been an asset this series to pushback against the Canucks physicality.

 

[Drivesaitl]

I think Drive is more going for that McDavid hasn't really taken over many series as might be expected from a generational talent. Aside from LA 2022 and Chicago in 20 (I guess? And the last two games I recall being a bit pedestrian), he hasn't really taken over games. He's been pedestrian relative to expectations. Getting his points, but this Nucks team isn't the first team to "contain" him. It isn't some sort of masterclass. He's a sublime talent but he's not taking over games like Leon has (and Bouchard for that matter, who all the offense is running through).

Yep. I've directly referenced it before as well. Teams would DEDICATE checkers on Wayne. Every game, but essentially playoffs. They would have their routine coverage plus one guy that would just shadow Wayne, Usually a best skater that could skate with Wayne. Thing with Wayne wasn't top speed it was top edgework and ability to go in any direction like a hovercraft. If Wayne ever had a series where a checker had equaled him he would consider it a disgrace.

But here we are: McD; 4 games in series 2pts. One game loaded up with Drai and some of the best players on Earth he manages 4pts. 4 of the games he's been pedestrian including 3 in a row.

JT Miller has 2G 4A 6pts +4 while being primarily assigned to mark McD.

McD, outhit, outhuscled, outmuscled, has the same 6pts, but only one goal in a whole damn series, and is -1.

McD losing the matchup, by a lot. Take away the one game where McD was getting all kinds of help from Drai and he's getting slam dunked in the series. The last time this sort of thing happened to Wayne he was very young. Maybe Islanders in 81 or Kings in 82. McD is in prime, has been in the league most of a decade, and he's allowing this blanket coverage to occur to him and essentially being bettered by the checker assigned to him. With the winning goal last night symbolizing all that.

 

[Behind Enemy Lines]

McD scoring has been off all season. the argument that McD elevates linemates isn't always so clear as everyseason he seems to get the pick of the litter to play with, and also this season and playoffs the best D pair.

hey, I'm not throwing on McD. he's our captain, our highest paid, he's the best player on Earth who we've just seen be startingly ordinary in this series. We need Superman to throw in his cape once in awhile and Frankly in this series its been Draiman being the hero. I'm trying to think of the last point Connor has had this playoffs without Drai on ice.

Hyman scoring 50+ goals is clear evidence of McDavid's ability to elevate line mate production. Nugent Hopkins in his career year. Maroon. Draisaitl's production also hits even higher with Stack Line. Very clear evidence. He also faces top competition every night, the guy that every team game plans to stop in order to shutdown the Oilers. He's also evolved his game every year to find new elements to drive production that this shallow team needs to win. Unfortunately his goal scoring focus and finishing is off. Under constant pressure this series, he's giving up too many quality shot opportunities and his puck decisions haven't been as crisp or consistent.

Taking the opposition's best is where this organization's second elites, Messier and modern day Draisaitl, flourish in the tighter style of play but also can take on and outscore secondary opposition. But when the top guy gets bottled up, it's very hard to win. Their shared ice on an 0-5 power play was the difference in this game. And an unfortunate Bouchard mistake on a guy who has been elite two-way all playoff.

 

[RegDunlop]

Many of the same fans that will endlessly carry water for him will also be the first to criticize Leon for a lazy game in the middle of December. McDavid's great playoff offensive numbers hide that his game has been pedestrian by his standards since that LA 2022 series. If he could channel some of that they win this in 7. I'm doubtful

I've missed this convo
Are people comparing Simoson & Drai?

(Sounds like a law firm!!)

 

[Behind Enemy Lines]

I think Drive is more going for that McDavid hasn't really taken over many series as might be expected from a generational talent. Aside from LA 2022 and Chicago in 20 (I guess? And the last two games I recall being a bit pedestrian), he hasn't really taken over games. He's been pedestrian relative to expectations. Getting his points, but this Nucks team isn't the first team to "contain" him. It isn't some sort of masterclass. He's a sublime talent but he's not taking over games like Leon has (and Bouchard for that matter, who all the offense is running through).

But It's not basketball where two elites can dominate and win championships. The story has always been stop McDavid and you can shutdown the Oilers. Expectations aren't realistic if it is that a single player will drive a Cup run. It's a credit to Draisaitl and Bouchard both that they can elevate to drive production and team success.

The Jets series they ran the Stack Line which was shutdown. Nugent Hopkins had to run Line 2 with a baby McLeod and Kassian back from missing extended games. They finished with series stat line of 5 points (Draisaitl); 4 points (McDavid); 2 points (Nugent Hopkins). And it was Line 2 that produced in that critical game 4 overtime loss. Vegas last year among many contributing factors fed on a Line 2 mismatch to win the series in the margins. Lots of variables, situations, and considerations. There's a lot of context to go with the stat lines of each and every series.

This is a team function of questionable depth. And a consistent game plan to shutdown McDavid to force others to beat them. Sometimes Draisaitl can do that and Bouchard is gaining his high level game.

 

[Drivesaitl]

But It's not basketball where two elites can dominate and win championships. The story has always been stop McDavid and you can shutdown the Oilers. Expectations aren't realistic if it is that a single player will drive a Cup run. It's a credit to Draisaitl and Bouchard both that they can elevate to drive production and team success.

The Jets series they ran the Stack Line which was shutdown. Nugent Hopkins had to run Line 2 with a baby McLeod and Kassian back from missing extended games. They finished with series stat line of 5 points (Draisaitl); 4 points (McDavid); 2 points (Nugent Hopkins). And it was Line 2 that produced in that critical game 4 overtime loss. Vegas last year among many contributing factors fed on a Line 2 mismatch to win the series in the margins. Lots of variables, situations, and considerations. There's a lot of context to go with the stat lines of each and every series.

This is a team function of questionable depth. And a consistent game plan to shutdown McDavid to force others to beat them. Sometimes Draisaitl can do that and Bouchard is gaining his high level game.

Whens the last time Drai was shutdown for 4/5 games in a series like Mcd has been? Even playing a whole postseason injured one year Drai was gold. He wouldn't fold, nothing would deter him.

Drai has 11pts in 5 games in this series. The same series against the same club boxing in McD. Months later we'll be in October and November and all the talk will be about lazy Drai and lets move his ass before contract expires.

 

[Fishy McScales]

Whens the last time Drai was shutdown for 4/5 games in a series like Mcd has been? Even playing a whole postseason injured one year Drai was gold. He wouldn't fold, nothing would deter him.

Drai has 11pts in 5 games in this series. The same series against the same club boxing in McD. Months later we'll be in October and November and all the talk will be about lazy Drai and lets move his ass before contract expires.

When was the last time a team prioritised shutting down Drai over McDavid?

 

[K1984]

When was the last time a team prioritised shutting down Drai over McDavid?

Was just going to respond with exactly this and you beat me to it.

Short of trying to stop the lethal PP one timer, teams aren't preparing for how to stop Driasaitl 5v5. He benefits massively from teams keying their best checking players on McDavid.

Give Leon the Miller matchup instead and I would almost guarantee that McDavid would go off instantly.

 

[Oilhawks]

But It's not basketball where two elites can dominate and win championships. The story has always been stop McDavid and you can shutdown the Oilers. Expectations aren't realistic if it is that a single player will drive a Cup run. It's a credit to Draisaitl and Bouchard both that they can elevate to drive production and team success.

The Jets series they ran the Stack Line which was shutdown. Nugent Hopkins had to run Line 2 with a baby McLeod and Kassian back from missing extended games. They finished with series stat line of 5 points (Draisaitl); 4 points (McDavid); 2 points (Nugent Hopkins). And it was Line 2 that produced in that critical game 4 overtime loss. Vegas last year among many contributing factors fed on a Line 2 mismatch to win the series in the margins. Lots of variables, situations, and considerations. There's a lot of context to go with the stat lines of each and every series.

This is a team function of questionable depth. And a consistent game plan to shutdown McDavid to force others to beat them. Sometimes Draisaitl can do that and Bouchard is gaining his high level game.

Yes, I'm quite aware of the bolded.

The Jets series isn't a great example for sure, they had little to no depth. But that really wasn't a great Jets team either (swept in the next round by a Cinderella Habs) and the Oilers dominated them in the regular season

They have enough depth this year to get past an upstart Canucks. Apparently there is an illness excuse for last night which makes the lack of effort in periods 2 and 3 a little more understandable (but no less nauseating). McDavid has the best wingers by his side each game and is not producing at a level expected from a generational talent. Miller backpack notwithstanding (f***ing SKATE through it like you can!), he refuses to shoot on excellent opportunities and his passing is off. Injury is probably another excuse but he's had opportunities to produce even with this in mind. This is the face of the franchise, he will always be expected to lead by example. He looks done, and the team follows.

The depth issues are an overstated excuse by a lot of fans. Holland dropped the ball but this is the best team McDrai have had and is good enough to make another final 4 appearance. Them not doing so would be entirely on the core. Ceci and a few bottom 6 guys drawing goose eggs should not be the difference in one goal games. Skinner gave away two games which makes the margin of error razor thin but they've had the goaltending for two games now and came out with one win. This is entirely on the core, lets not be Leafs fans and make endless excuses for them.

 

[Mav3rick07]

McDavid has 2 goals in 10 games in the playoffs. Two.

He has to be injured. There's no way his production would be that bad if he's healthy.

 

[Drivesaitl]

When was the last time a team prioritised shutting down Drai over McDavid?

In the playoffs. You serious? should be similar focus.

Last year Drai set a record for 13 goals in first 8 games of a playoffs. Alltime record. He's one of the most dangerous playoff producers ever. He's the top playoff pts game performer tabulated in Pts/G through entire career.

 

[Behind Enemy Lines]

Whens the last time Drai was shutdown for 4/5 games in a series like Mcd has been? Even playing a whole postseason injured one year Drai was gold. He wouldn't fold, nothing would deter him.

Drai has 11pts in 5 games in this series. The same series against the same club boxing in McD. Months later we'll be in October and November and all the talk will be about lazy Drai and lets move his ass before contract expires.

Draisaitl is an excellent player. He's a warrior. Newsflash. It's not an either or scenario. This is a team sport and one that can't be won with one or two players. Tocchet has game planned with Miller and their team to nullify McDavid with coverage schemes and aggressive, heavy play. The opposition rightfully deserves from credit. Last night was a one goal game where their PP went 0-5. It was an opportunity and their elite 5 man unit got jackshit done. Shared responsibility as each player actually playing the game would see it.

Comparing to Gretzky is apples to bananas. Both in the quality of teams surround them but also the sophistication of team systems involved to shutdown the team's best player. Throwing Steve Kasper over the boards is gone like the Do Do.

Anyone proclaiming lazy Draisaitl is clearly not worth engaging with.

 

[Pavel10]

This speculation keeps coming up by some in here that Skinner might start next game, where is this coming from? I haven’t seen anything out there, has anyone? It would make zero sense and I can’t believe it would even be considered. Pickard was the best player on the team last night. It’s a dead issue, Skinner is done.

Canucks deep state media probably pushing this. They dream of skinner starting and the game being over half way through the second.

I recently re- watched game 7 of ‘87 final vs. Philly and let me tell ya MacTavish was a force in that game. His linemates were Hunter and McSorley and they dominated virtually every shift they took. Look at our 3rd line right now, it’s a f***ing joke, not gonna win shit with these guys.

Lol comparing those three monsters and the effiminate Ryan Mcleod.

 

[Messrules11]

But It's not basketball where two elites can dominate and win championships. The story has always been stop McDavid and you can shutdown the Oilers. Expectations aren't realistic if it is that a single player will drive a Cup run. It's a credit to Draisaitl and Bouchard both that they can elevate to drive production and team success.

The Jets series they ran the Stack Line which was shutdown. Nugent Hopkins had to run Line 2 with a baby McLeod and Kassian back from missing extended games. They finished with series stat line of 5 points (Draisaitl); 4 points (McDavid); 2 points (Nugent Hopkins). And it was Line 2 that produced in that critical game 4 overtime loss. Vegas last year among many contributing factors fed on a Line 2 mismatch to win the series in the margins. Lots of variables, situations, and considerations. There's a lot of context to go with the stat lines of each and every series.

This is a team function of questionable depth. And a consistent game plan to shutdown McDavid to force others to beat them. Sometimes Draisaitl can do that and Bouchard is gaining his high level game.

I agree with your last paragraph completely. For sure the top 2 lines need to produce but like I stated earlier your 3rd line has to contribute, has to.
When this franchise was winning cups it was because our bottom 6 did contribute, whether it was MacTavish, Linseman, or the kid line. Hell, even Klima, sure we had elite goaltending but depth players were relied on to wear down the opposition either with a strong forecheck or pure intimidation.
Our current bottom 6 brings none of this and so the top 6 is relied on for virtually every dimension. Our 80’s top 6 would also be handcuffed with this current bottom 6.

 

[Behind Enemy Lines]

Yes, I'm quite aware of the bolded.

The Jets series isn't a great example for sure, they had little to no depth. But that really wasn't a great Jets team either (swept in the next round by a Cinderella Habs) and the Oilers dominated them in the regular season

They have enough depth this year to get past an upstart Canucks. Apparently there is an illness excuse for last night which makes the lack of effort in periods 2 and 3 a little more understandable (but no less nauseating). McDavid has the best wingers by his side each game and is not producing at a level expected from a generational talent. Miller backpack notwithstanding (f***ing SKATE through it like you can!), he refuses to shoot on excellent opportunities and his passing is off. Injury is probably another excuse but he's had opportunities to produce even with this in mind. This is the face of the franchise, he will always be expected to lead by example. He looks done, and the team follows.

The depth issues are an overstated excuse by a lot of fans. Holland dropped the ball but this is the best team McDrai have had and is good enough to make another final 4 appearance. Them not doing so would be entirely on the core. Ceci and a few bottom 6 guys drawing goose eggs should not be the difference in one goal games. Skinner gave away two games which makes the margin of error razor thin but they've had the goaltending for two games now and came out with one win. This is entirely on the core, lets not be Leafs fans and make endless excuses for them.

Can't parse out or cherry pick playoff results. They rolled the Stack Line and limiting its effectiveness was the overriding factor. Vegas exploited Line 2 to win a series in the margin. That's on coaching but the result is the result. The upstart Canucks swept the second place Oilers in the season series and quite handedly. McDavid is losing the top line battle.

I'm not convinced it was a 'lack of effort' for period 2 and 3. Canucks were far more aggressive and won every metric. Canucks have made it a highly contested physical series and the Oilers best player is the game plan target and he's not getting it done. A one goal game last night with great goaltending was unravelled by an 0-5 power play with the team's best five players not getting it done.

 

[5 Mins 4 Ftg]

Just for memory sake you and others were swearing at me for saying Nicholson was going to be the worst when he got here. Was already an obvious hard drinker, had f***ed over quite a few things within his Hockey Canada incumbency. Said at the time he was a grade A glad hander with a phony drunk smile that would spend too much time in the red wine room.

The guy was a buffoon before he got here.

I totally mocked to shreds his pronouncement "we're goign to to do a top to bottom forensic audit." It was all bs I said. Only thing he was going to take inventory of was Liquor supply so that it would be guaranteed even he or gretz or other swillers didn't run out for years. This guy wasn't even looking sober or coherent in press conferences.

I had belief in him and Chiarelli and later Holland and Tippett but as it turns out I am a sucker for a good sales pitch and embarrassed I believed in the Burgerman. I actually started doubting the plan after trying a burger at a game and it was cold and gross. Maybe one of worst burgers I’ve ever had and I consider myself an expert on that particular food genre.

I posted this last year after Tippet was fired / I don’t care who you are or what your credentials are anymore. There is only 1 bottom line for me - winning. There are no more excuses with our two stars in their prime.

All I know is that if we f*** this up (the McDavid years)It will be the most Oiler thing we’ve ever done or ever could do thanks to one man - Bobby Burgers.

 

[Oilhawks]

Can't parse out or cherry pick playoff results. They rolled the Stack Line and limiting its effectiveness was the overriding factor. Vegas exploited Line 2 to win a series in the margin. That's on coaching but the result is the result. The upstart Canucks swept the second place Oilers in the season series and quite handedly. McDavid is losing the top line battle.

I'm not convinced it was a 'lack of effort' for period 2 and 3. Canucks were far more aggressive and won every metric. Canucks have made it a highly contested physical series and the Oilers best player is the game plan target and he's not getting it done. A one goal game last night with great goaltending was unravelled by an 0-5 power play with the team's best five players not getting it done.

What cherry-picking? He's been pedestrian all but 1 or 2 series. Nitpicking here and there to argue against that would be cherry-picking.

Considering they've outplayed the Canucks the lion's share of the series, 'lack of effort' is a reasonable assertion.

The Oilers are losing this series more than the Canucks are winning it. C'est tout

I'm not sure why I bothered though, we will absolutely never agree on it. I have my biases and you have yours. I can understand having a soft spot for that team when you live in the city. Not my cup of tea, but I get it.

 

[guymez]

I recently re- watched game 7 of ‘87 final vs. Philly and let me tell ya MacTavish was a force in that game. His linemates were Hunter and McSorley and they dominated virtually every shift they took. Look at our 3rd line right now, it’s a f***ing joke, not gonna win shit with these guys.

You still need depth and and grit. MacT was tough and he could play the game.

This notion that you can run McDavid and Drai for almost 30 minutes a game and win in the playoffs is just not realistic.

 

[Kerberos]

McDavid has 2 goals in 10 games in the playoffs. Two.

He has to be injured. There's no way his production would be that bad if he's healthy.

All season long he's been unable to shoot, handle the puck or beat defenders with his speed and has looked like a shell of himself despite the production.

Would love to know what the injuries he's dealing with are. Just is not the same gamebreaking talent we've become accustomed to seeing.

 

[Stoneman89]

Holland interviewing with another team while his own team, the one he sewered, is still playing. Shades of Chris Jones of the Eskimos when he left. Classless bitches, both of them. Holland left Detroit in ruins and now he leaves us holding several shit bags. He can f*** himself.