I remember before the Sharks came into being, North Stars owners the Gund brothers were wanting to move the team to San Jose. As we know, this didn't happen as the Gund's were granted an expansion franchise instead of a relocation. But unlike other expansions, the Sharks were able to take advantage of a dispersal draft, taking many players and prospects from the North Stars. I'm wondering why this was allowed to happen. Was it a concession by the NHL that the Gund's be able to take some of their former team's assets rather than relocating the entire team, or was it kind of a reactivation of the Cleveland Barons franchise that had previously merged with the North Stars? Whichever it was, I can't imagine the NHL ever allowing something like that to happen again.
North Stars, Barons, Sharks connection?
- Thread starter PEIslander
- Start date
ColeJ
Registered User
There has never been a real clear distinction about if it was technically a reactivation of the Barons franchise. Some choose to see it as that.... it's just a really strange scenario. As you said, it's unlikely the league would ever agree to do something like that again. Its just as unlikely they ever allow two teams to merge like the Stars and Barons again either.
Making things even more interesting is the fact that the Minnesota North Stars participated in the Sharks expansion draft alongside San Jose, despite the fact that they were an established franchise of about a quarter century at the time.
A handful of players the Sharks took from Minnesota ended up back with the Stars oddly enough too.
Making things even more interesting is the fact that the Minnesota North Stars participated in the Sharks expansion draft alongside San Jose, despite the fact that they were an established franchise of about a quarter century at the time.
A handful of players the Sharks took from Minnesota ended up back with the Stars oddly enough too.
tjcurrie
Registered User
There's no actual "connection" between the Seals/Barons + North Stars and the Sharks, other than the Gunds.
The Gunds of course owned the Seals/Barons, then purchased the North Stars and merged the two franchises in 1978.
When they wanted out of Minnesota nearly a dozen years later, the NHL told them basically to hang tight, that they would help them find a buyer (Norm Green eventually taking 100% control of the team), and rather than moving the North Stars to Cali they would grant them an expansion franchise (Sharks) instead - and allow them to select a few unprotected North Stars players to take with them as well.
As Cole mentioned, the North Stars were then allowed to participate in the Expansion Draft alongside the Sharks to compensate for lost players in the Dispersal Draft.
Of note: Guy Lafleur was selected by the North Stars, then traded back to the Nordiques the next day before his official and final retirement. So Guy Lafleur was a North Star for a day.
Odd situation, and it confused my young pre-teen brain at the time.
-"Why are you taking our players?!"
-"Why is Charlie Huddy a North Star now?!"
etc.
The Gunds of course owned the Seals/Barons, then purchased the North Stars and merged the two franchises in 1978.
When they wanted out of Minnesota nearly a dozen years later, the NHL told them basically to hang tight, that they would help them find a buyer (Norm Green eventually taking 100% control of the team), and rather than moving the North Stars to Cali they would grant them an expansion franchise (Sharks) instead - and allow them to select a few unprotected North Stars players to take with them as well.
As Cole mentioned, the North Stars were then allowed to participate in the Expansion Draft alongside the Sharks to compensate for lost players in the Dispersal Draft.
Of note: Guy Lafleur was selected by the North Stars, then traded back to the Nordiques the next day before his official and final retirement. So Guy Lafleur was a North Star for a day.
Odd situation, and it confused my young pre-teen brain at the time.
-"Why are you taking our players?!"
-"Why is Charlie Huddy a North Star now?!"
etc.
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Everything in the posts above is correct - there is no official connection between the teams in the eyes of the league. But with the Gunds owning a team in the Bay Area (the Seals), merging that franchise with the North Stars, and then splitting the new team off from the North Stars in '91, there's a strong enough link there that I've always though of it as effectively a reincarnation of the Seals.
The league apparently has another of these franchise linkages - I've read that when they awarded a franchise to the Senators in '92, they issued a letter somehow linking that franchise to the old Ottawa Senators/St. Louis Eagles franchise that was returned to the league in 1934. I've never seen that letter and would be interested to hear anyone else's information or perspective on any link that might be claimed between the two franchises. I know that Frank Finnigan, the old Senators star, was working with the new Senators, but he passed away as the franchise was being built. Anyone have any info on the letter or any other linkage? I'd like to think the new Sens are linked in some way to the old, as I interpret the Sharks as being linked through that ownership and location to the Seals, even if informally.
tjcurrie
Registered User
It is neat to look at it that way though, linking the Sharks to the Seals. I guess we could say the Sharks swallowed em up
(Insert Price is Right loser horn sound here)Anyways...
Neat to give the Sharks that historical depth though, and bring that awesome Seals franchise back to life in a way, even if unofficially and not officially.
Jinsell
Registered User
- May 11, 2007
- 730
- 27
Does anyone think the dispersal draft hurt the North Stars? A lot of people look at the talent the San Jose Sharks acquired from Minnesota's minor league system and think no big loss, but I think it did set the Stars back. They lost depth.
1991 Dispersal Draft
1. Shane Churla (RW)
2. Brian Hayward (G)
3. Neil Wilkinson (D)
4. Rob Zettler (D)
5. Ed Courtenay (RW)
6. Kevin Evans (LW)
7. Link Gaetz (D)
8. Dan Keczmer (D)
9. Dean Kolstad (D)
10. Peter Lappin (RW)
11. Pat MacLeod (D)
12. Mike McHugh (LW)
13. Jarmo Myllys (G)
14. J. F. Quintin (LW)
15. Scott Cashman (G)
16. Murray Garbutt (C)
17. Rob Gaudreau (RW)
18. Arturs Irbe (G)
19. Shaun Kane (D)
20. Larry Olimb (D)
21. Tom Pederson (D)
22. Bryan Schoen (G)
23. John Weisbrod (C)
24. Doug Zmolek (D)
1991 Dispersal Draft
1. Shane Churla (RW)
2. Brian Hayward (G)
3. Neil Wilkinson (D)
4. Rob Zettler (D)
5. Ed Courtenay (RW)
6. Kevin Evans (LW)
7. Link Gaetz (D)
8. Dan Keczmer (D)
9. Dean Kolstad (D)
10. Peter Lappin (RW)
11. Pat MacLeod (D)
12. Mike McHugh (LW)
13. Jarmo Myllys (G)
14. J. F. Quintin (LW)
15. Scott Cashman (G)
16. Murray Garbutt (C)
17. Rob Gaudreau (RW)
18. Arturs Irbe (G)
19. Shaun Kane (D)
20. Larry Olimb (D)
21. Tom Pederson (D)
22. Bryan Schoen (G)
23. John Weisbrod (C)
24. Doug Zmolek (D)
tony d
Registered User
I remember that as well. It's strange that could happen. Get all those players from a team that would still exist.
Doctor No
Registered User
Although I agree (even inclusive of what I'm about to say), you do need to net it out against who they acquired in the expansion draft:
4. |Dave Babych (D) |Hartford Whalers
6. |Allen Pedersen (D) |Boston Bruins
8. |Charlie Huddy (D) |Edmonton Oilers
10. |Kelly Kisio (F) |New York Rangers
12. |Randy Gilhen (C) |Pittsburgh Penguins
14. |Rob Murray (C) |Washington Capitals
16. |Tyler Larter (F) |Winnipeg Jets
18. |Jim Thomson (RW) |Los Angeles Kings
20. |Guy Lafleur (RW) |Quebec Nordiques
(Some of whom were picked specifically to be traded, of course.)
tjcurrie
Registered User
Rob Ramage - 34 games 1991-92 - Claimed by Tampa in 1992 Expansion Draft
Dave Babych - Traded that summer to Vancouver for Tom Kurvers. Kurvers then flipped that same day to NYI or Craig Ludwig
Allen Pedersen - 29 games 1991-92 - Traded to Hartford for a 6th round pick summer '92
Charlie Huddy/Randy Gilhen/Jim Thomson - Traded that summer to Los Angeles for Todd Elik
Kelly Kisio - Traded that summer to San Jose for Shane Churla who was taken by San Jose in the Dispersal Draft
Rob Murray - Traded the next day to Winnipeg for a 7th round pick
Tyler Larter - No games. Traded in mid October to Winnipeg for Tony Joseph
Guy Lafleur - Traded to Quebec the next day for Alan Haworth and then retired. Officially. Again. For good. So far. Haworth never played for Minnesota.
- Got some games out of Ramage and Pedersen
- Had Elik for a couple seasons before he was dealt to Edmonton for Brent Gilchrist in March 1993
- Ludwig played the next 8 seasons with the Stars and retired after that Cup win in '99
- Got Churla right back
- Guy Lafleur was a North Star for a day
Definitely lost some depth/talent (most notably Wilkinson, Irbe, Gaudreau, Zmolek, maybe Zettler, maybe Gaetz) but gained a little back as well.
Zmolek ended up back with the Stars briefly in 1994 after Mark Tinordi crashed into the boards on an icing play in L.A. and broke his leg. Gainey dealt Ulf Dahlen (ugh) to San Jose for Zmolek and Mike Lalor for defensive help. Then Zmolek and Churla ironically dealt to L.A. in Feb '96 for Darryl Sydor.
Dave Babych - Traded that summer to Vancouver for Tom Kurvers. Kurvers then flipped that same day to NYI or Craig Ludwig
Allen Pedersen - 29 games 1991-92 - Traded to Hartford for a 6th round pick summer '92
Charlie Huddy/Randy Gilhen/Jim Thomson - Traded that summer to Los Angeles for Todd Elik
Kelly Kisio - Traded that summer to San Jose for Shane Churla who was taken by San Jose in the Dispersal Draft
Rob Murray - Traded the next day to Winnipeg for a 7th round pick
Tyler Larter - No games. Traded in mid October to Winnipeg for Tony Joseph
Guy Lafleur - Traded to Quebec the next day for Alan Haworth and then retired. Officially. Again. For good. So far. Haworth never played for Minnesota.
- Got some games out of Ramage and Pedersen
- Had Elik for a couple seasons before he was dealt to Edmonton for Brent Gilchrist in March 1993
- Ludwig played the next 8 seasons with the Stars and retired after that Cup win in '99
- Got Churla right back
- Guy Lafleur was a North Star for a day
Definitely lost some depth/talent (most notably Wilkinson, Irbe, Gaudreau, Zmolek, maybe Zettler, maybe Gaetz) but gained a little back as well.
Zmolek ended up back with the Stars briefly in 1994 after Mark Tinordi crashed into the boards on an icing play in L.A. and broke his leg. Gainey dealt Ulf Dahlen (ugh) to San Jose for Zmolek and Mike Lalor for defensive help. Then Zmolek and Churla ironically dealt to L.A. in Feb '96 for Darryl Sydor.
Sure it hurt to lose some of those players. The North Stars were a rising team then, and the loss leveled us off a bit. But no complaints, as we gained a lot in the merger with the Barons franchise - Gilles Meloche, Denis Maruk, Al McAdam just to name a few. Those players, added to the young core that was coming up for the Stars in the years 78-80, gave us a Stanley Cup finals run in '81, a huge playoff upset over the 4-time defending Cup champion Canadiens the year before that, a couple division titles later, etc. No complaints over "borrowing" part of the Seals/Barons franchise for 13 years and then having to pay something back when they were split off again as the Sharks in '91.
tjcurrie
Registered User
Totally
Little off topic, but touching on that late 70s/early 80s North Stars run of success....
Something pretty amazing about that 1981 team that went to the Final
1978 Draft - Bobby Smith, Steve Payne, Steve Christoff, Curt Giles
1979 Draft - Craig Hartsburg, Tom McCarthy, Neal Broten, Kevin Maxwell
1980 Draft - Brad Palmer, Don Beaupre
+ Undrafted FA Dino Ciccarelli signed in 1979
That's 10 drafted players from '78, '79, and '80 on that 1980-81 team, + Ciccarelli making it an 11th. 7 of them helped make up the team's top 10 point-getters that spring. What an infusion of young talent.
How crazy is that? Gotta be an extreme rarity.
Jumptheshark
Rebooting myself
players who went from the Barons to the North Stars
Al MacAdam
Mike Fidler
Kris Mannery
Greg Smith
Dennis Maruk
and a few others who were on the farm
Al MacAdam
Mike Fidler
Kris Mannery
Greg Smith
Dennis Maruk
and a few others who were on the farm
Jumptheshark
Rebooting myself
tjcurrie
Registered User
+ Gilles Meloche
There is no question as to the connection between the Seals/Barons and the North Stars. The connection is obvious. Same entity basically, as the North Stars gobbled the other franchise up.
What's in question is the connection to the Sharks, in which there is none, aside from having the same owners. Had the Gunds been granted their wish to relocate the North Stars and move them to California, then they would have became the Sharks and the Seals-Barons-North Stars-Sharks connection wouldn't need questioning. It'd be obvious. Same entity. The Sharks though as it all played out are a completely separate entity. An expansion team.
And those dudes - both the draftees and the pickups from the Barons - can still bring it. At the outdoor alumni game this winter against their old rival the Blackhawks, Smith and Maruk scored, and Meloche played very well in goal for someone in his mid-60s. And Beaupre stood on his head in goal, probably the player of the game. All of these guys were playing against players 10 and 20 years younger, guys who played in the '90s and early 2000s, but they acquitted themselves well. Heck, Meloche wasn't just a Baron, but he'd played a couple years with the Seals! And still knocking 'em down in goal. Pretty impressive.
Jumptheshark
Rebooting myself
How many North Star Players went to San Jose? That is also the connections
BTW
Warren Young is Also a connection from the Seals to the North Stars
tjcurrie
Registered User
Expansion teams take players from existing teams. That doesn't then connect them to the previous teams of those players. The Gunds were allowed to bring players from their previously owned franchise as compensation for them agreeing to purchase an expansion team rather than relocating the North Stars.
It was not a merger. It wasn't one team dissolving into another. It wasn't relocation. It was a completely separate entity awarded to them and they simply took a group of players from the North Stars as compensation, as well as players from other teams.
Neat story line, neat how everything played out, coincidental, but the only real connection are the Gunds. That doesn't translate Sharks = Seals, though it's cool to imagine so.
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tjcurrie
Registered User
Little secret, and it pains me, but I didn't even watch the game. I was so excited for it. Couldn't wait to watch the like of Payne, McCarthy, Bellows, Ciccarelli, Maxwell, Hartsburg, etc etc etc.
I woke up that day pretty jacked up, only to find that I didn't have that one channel it was being played on after I furiously flipped over all my channels multiple times looking for it. I called my cable company and they didn't offer it, or I was going to pay for it for the day.
Pretty disappointed.
There are clips of it online. Maruk sniped his goal; Smith and Modano skated the way they always did after they scored - amazing how familiar it looked after all those years. I don't know who aired it nationally, but it was shown locally, so you might be able to find a full-length version online somewhere. Well worth it for a North Star fan to see those old unis with #9, #7, #4, #23, etc. still playing and skating in their familiar styles, although maybe a few steps slower than back in the day.
Side story: My nephew caught a players' stick tossed into the crowd after the game, but an adult pulled it from him and walked away. The Wild heard about it and arranged to give him a replacement stick signed by all the North Star and Wild players who were on the Minnesota alumni team. Wes Walz went to his home to give him the stick and it made the local TV news. Class move.
tjcurrie
Registered User
I'll look for some clips or even the entire thing. Would be great to see. I became a fan when I was maybe 5 or 6, so around 1984 or so. Was extremely young for most of those players so not much memory if any at all. I think my earliest real memories would begin about 1987 or so. Though I do remember knowing the players from those earlier 80s teams from collecting the old O-Pee-Chee sticker albums back then, which is how I became a fan in the first place. My favorite player was Curt Giles way back then. Didn't get many Minnesota games up here in Alberta, unfortunately.
That's a pretty awesome story. Sucks about the stick in the crowd. Wonder whose it was. Pretty great what he ended up with though, and that Walz delivered it. Unreal.
My nephew said the stick was thrown by Richard Park of the Wild. About a half-dozen Wild players played in the alumni game, but it was mostly old North Stars and they all wore the North Stars whites that were the home unis in their day. Walz also scored. Fun game.
Did 1990-1991 Kansas City Blades have something to do with the North Stars>Sharks connection?
I noticed that there were about dozen players with North Star connection playing in the KC Blades during that season (Gaetz, Scremin, Flaherty, Odgers, Hiltner, Coleman, Akervik...). Now in 1991 these players did participate on Sharks training camp (Only Link Gaetz was claimed via dispersal draft). Most of them made contract with Sharks. Now ofcourse in 1991 Blades became farm team for Sharks.
In 1990 North Stars send four players (Odgers, Akervik, Coleman and Ryan Fox) to train with Finnish team Ilves during preseason. I have seen interview from Odgers where he mentions that Sharks send him to Finland in that summer. Maybe he remembers wrong, but all of these players did participate on Sharks training camp in 1991 and apparently all had contracts.
I noticed that there were about dozen players with North Star connection playing in the KC Blades during that season (Gaetz, Scremin, Flaherty, Odgers, Hiltner, Coleman, Akervik...). Now in 1991 these players did participate on Sharks training camp (Only Link Gaetz was claimed via dispersal draft). Most of them made contract with Sharks. Now ofcourse in 1991 Blades became farm team for Sharks.
In 1990 North Stars send four players (Odgers, Akervik, Coleman and Ryan Fox) to train with Finnish team Ilves during preseason. I have seen interview from Odgers where he mentions that Sharks send him to Finland in that summer. Maybe he remembers wrong, but all of these players did participate on Sharks training camp in 1991 and apparently all had contracts.
Theokritos
Global Moderator
- Apr 6, 2010
- 12,798
- 5,884
Do you happen to know what the reason for that was? I've never heard of that, so a bit of the background would be nice.
I don´t have any hard facts about this. This is mostly learned from hockey discusions. I don´t know if they had official agreement or was it just unofficial. Mike Hiltner and someone else came to Ilves from North Stars organization in 1989-1990 season. Hiltner had decent season and in 1990-1991 there was more players from the same connection. This was rather unsuccesful tryout and became sort of cult incident in Tampere hockey. Long story short... First there was fights in a game (Tampere Cup) and then there was fight in a bar.(don´t know/remeber who were involved). All players were released.
Here is how Odgers remembers his time in Finland.
http://www.yorktonnews.com/sports/local-sports/odgers-shares-the-road-to-the-nhl-with-terrier-fans-1.1646707
I don't know all the details of the North Stars sending players to Finland, but in the late '80s and early '90s, the North Stars had two backup goalies from Finland - Kari Takko and Jarmo Myllys. Both had been drafted by the Stars in the mid-80s, and Myllys had played for Ilves Tampere. Maybe the North Stars were working a pipeline to Finland, which would develop into a great goalie source, or maybe deals were made to provide players to Finnish teams in exchange for rights to Finnish players?
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