- Jul 30, 2016
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Norris Trophy Tournament (1993-Present) Round 1: 2023 Erik Karlsson vs 1995 Paul Coffey
- Thread starter blundluntman
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tabness
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- Apr 4, 2014
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Coffey short season but it was amazing, the Wings really tightened up like crazy in 1995 and suppressed all the star scoring numbers (though this mainly affected forwards), and Coffey was real high on Bowman's hit list after the 1993-1994 season but literally played his way to getting another year, Scotty had to recognize, he was so dominant.
Also, for me there is absolutely no player who was more aesthetically pleasing to watch than the great Paul Coffey
Nice Be A Player video on Coffey from around the time
(im sorry my ace @Ben White
)
Also, for me there is absolutely no player who was more aesthetically pleasing to watch than the great Paul Coffey
Nice Be A Player video on Coffey from around the time
(im sorry my ace @Ben White
)
I think I like Coffey here. Both were kind of similar in a way, with elite offensive defensemen having resurgent years in their early 30s to win the Norris a few years after their general prime, and it looks like the last big run for each based on Karlsson’s play in Pittsburgh. Coffey finished higher in points (tied for 6th in the league vs 11th), and was slightly higher in adjusted points (100 to 96), though he was much more dependent on the PP and obviously had the better teammates.
I think a lot of people still underrate Karlsson’s year a bit due to the -26, which was entirely due to empty net and short handed goals against while on the PP. He was even at 5v5 despite the Sharks being a terrible roster and putting up that many points, especially 5v5 points, with that roster is very impressive. He was amazing offensively that year and while poor defensively, he was still a huge plus on the team and was a Lindsay finalist.
That said, as good as he was, Karlsson’s season also felt very much a product of running everything through him, and I’m not sure if he could have the same value on a better team. That’s why I’m leaning Coffey, as he led the President’s Trophy winning Wings in scoring and did it on a Scotty Bowman coached team.
Bowman had his issues with Coffey but he seemed to find the right balance that year of being a game breaking talent who could fit into the team’s structure. And while I don’t think playoffs are meant to be included in this assessment, the fact that Coffey was also very good there, and he and Fedorov were the only skaters who were generating much against Jersey in the finals suggests that it wasn’t just a regular season points mirage.
I think a lot of people still underrate Karlsson’s year a bit due to the -26, which was entirely due to empty net and short handed goals against while on the PP. He was even at 5v5 despite the Sharks being a terrible roster and putting up that many points, especially 5v5 points, with that roster is very impressive. He was amazing offensively that year and while poor defensively, he was still a huge plus on the team and was a Lindsay finalist.
That said, as good as he was, Karlsson’s season also felt very much a product of running everything through him, and I’m not sure if he could have the same value on a better team. That’s why I’m leaning Coffey, as he led the President’s Trophy winning Wings in scoring and did it on a Scotty Bowman coached team.
Bowman had his issues with Coffey but he seemed to find the right balance that year of being a game breaking talent who could fit into the team’s structure. And while I don’t think playoffs are meant to be included in this assessment, the fact that Coffey was also very good there, and he and Fedorov were the only skaters who were generating much against Jersey in the finals suggests that it wasn’t just a regular season points mirage.
- Feb 10, 2010
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Well yes and no. Pittsburgh isn’t very good, I don’t think he’s been used to his strengths, and it’s one year later in his 30s. Players aren’t always the same year to year and Coffey regressed the following year as well. He also was pretty good last year, but everyone focused on the drop in point totals and Pittsburgh missing the playoffs. But he was 23rd out of 136 defensemen with at least 1000 min at 5v5 in xGF%, and 12th among them in relative xGF%. He wasn’t a Norris defenseman but he played like a top pairing guy still. I think it lends credence to the idea but I don’t think it’s proves it.
With Coffey though, he actually did it on a top team, so there aren’t really any question marks.
McFlash97
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- Oct 10, 2017
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Remember that Detroit team with so many superstars. Oilers were terrible at that time , so we were all Wings fans. Loved Federov, Yzerman, Lidstrom etc, but Coffey that year carried that team on both ends of the ice. Really one of the greatest seasons ive ever seen from a defenseman albeit a shortened one. Best player in hockey that season.
tabness
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Yzerman would say after Coffey was unceremoniously traded early in 1996-1997, that the Wings not only lost their best defenseman, but best forward many nights. That was especially true in the lockout year.
That year only had inter conference play, think Coffey's stats would have been higher playing in the east. People have said he should have won the MVP, dunno if I'd give it to him over Lindros, but yeah he stacks up well against anyone else.
- Feb 10, 2010
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I have a bit of a bleaker view:
Karlsson was allowed to sacrifice any semblance of winning hockey with the Sharks in favor of being the 4th forward. This benefitted Karlsson and the team simultaneously by artificially inflating his trade value and their draft position, and it cost the team nothing because they were tanking to begin with. They were able to make a pretty nice deal to offload him whereas he was previously regarded as virtually untradeable.
As for him being misused in Pittsburgh, I think there is some truth to that but it was inevitable given that they already had a #1 offensive defenseman in Letang. So those two are splitting assignments that a team might normally prioritize for one #1 guy. IMO he was the wrong player to add to that particular team. But generally I think the default position ought to be that NHL coaches are not dummies doing stupid stuff to the detriment of their team. And Karlsson still wasn't being asked to kill penalties and he was getting favorable zone starts (63% offensive).
The '23-24 Pens struggled to hold on to leads and they barely missed the playoffs for the second year in a row. You'd think adding the absolute best defenseman in the world would improve a team - especially since Pens fans all claimed the other moves in that offseason were addition by subtraction. Instead the Pens points percentage went from .555% down to .537%. You cite Karlsson's offensive stats but those come at an offsetting and arguably proportionate defensive cost.
So either defenseman is a highly overrated position, or Karlsson's impact was not remotely Norris-caliber. Or I suppose it's possible that Karlsson indeed massively regressed in the offseason but when I watch him play, he's still the same slick passing offensive player who is a complete disaster around his own net.
