Norris Trophy now just given to D-man with most points, Defense no longer required.

[massivegoonery]

Not a chance, compare stats and Phanuef has more blocks, much more PK time, more take-aways and is always matched up against opposing teams best players.

Yeah, but his zone exits are ****, just like Weber. With Karlsson or Subban, their team is barely in their own zone when the player is on the ice. Chipping it out of your zone and praying is patently inferior defensive play to starting a rush and playing in the opposition's zone.

A good offensive play is superior to a good defensive play, even from a defensive perspective. This isn't football - the best defense is not having to play defense.

 

[madgoat33]

Yeah, but his zone exits are ****, just like Weber. With Karlsson or Subban, their team is barely in their own zone when the player is on the ice. Chipping it out of your zone and praying is patently inferior defensive play to starting a rush and playing in the opposition's zone.

A good offensive play is superior to a good defensive play, even from a defensive perspective. This isn't football - the best defense is not having to play defense.

If you don't account for quality of competition maybe, but once you consider that, the picture changes dramatically.

http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stat...+3+5+4+6+7+8+13+14+29+30+32+33+34+45+46+63+67

 

[Sir Psycho T]

Yeah, but his zone exits are ****, just like Weber. With Karlsson or Subban, their team is barely in their own zone when the player is on the ice. Chipping it out of your zone and praying is patently inferior defensive play to starting a rush and playing in the opposition's zone.

A good offensive play is superior to a good defensive play, even from a defensive perspective. This isn't football - the best defense is not having to play defense.

You still have to play defense. This isn't 1-1 basketball with winners out.

 

[Sir Psycho T]

If you don't account for quality of competition maybe, but once you consider that, the picture changes dramatically.

http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stat...+3+5+4+6+7+8+13+14+29+30+32+33+34+45+46+63+67

Exactly, Phanuef still put up solid points while shuting down teams best lines, guys like Suban and Karlsson are fowards on the blue line. They are out there in offensive zone draws, on the PP and against teams checking lines, you rarely see them on the PK, D zone draws and against a teams top line. To me that isn't the "Best All Around D-man" which is what the Norris is given for, best All Around, not most points.

 

[McDooRoo]

Suter will win it, but I don't disagree with Subban and Letang being finalists. Best all around to me involves points and none of our dmen have any points touching any of the above players. Our team defense was the best in the league, but not because our dmen were outstanding it was because our entire team defense was awesome.

Both Subban and Letang keep the puck out of their end and can score. They might not play a bunch on the PK, but everything else they do makes up for it. Karlson deserved it last year and Suter does this year. But, to me both Subban and Letang deserve to be finalists.

 

[Bubba88]

it involves points, that's true but Subban and Letang offer nothing other than points.

 

[McDooRoo]

it involves points, that's true but Subban and Letang offer nothing other than points.

Game 1 of the Pens/Sens game showed otherwise. Letang is a good defenseman and would take him on the Hawks easy.

 

[Sir Psycho T]

Game 1 of the Pens/Sens game showed otherwise. Letang is a good defenseman and would take him on the Hawks easy.

Letang is slightly better but not his teams go to guy Orpik is and Subban isn't top 4 on his team.

It should be an award based on defense first then points, it's an award for best DEFENSEman, sorry but the name indicates defense matters and someone like Subban being nominated ahead of guys like Chara, Phaneuf, Weber, Keith, prove that it doesn't.

 

[member 151739]

Letang is slightly better but not his teams go to guy Orpik is and Subban isn't top 4 on his team.

It should be an award based on defense first then points, it's an award for best DEFENSEman, sorry but the name indicates defense matters and someone like Subban being nominated ahead of guys like Chara, Phaneuf, Weber, Keith, prove that it doesn't.

Orpik is garbage this season.

 

[ice_nine]

...Karlsson never played against another teams top line, at least not at home when they could control it...

Where do you get this from? I'm pretty sure you're completely wrong about that.

 

[Sir Psycho T]

Where do you get this from? I'm pretty sure you're completely wrong about that.

http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_statistics.php?ds=30&s=13&f1=2011_s&f2=5v5&f4=D&f7=20-&c=0+1+3+5+4+6+7+8+13+14+29+30+32+33+34+45+46+63+67#snip=f

Karlsson is 71 on that list, on his own team he was 5th in blocked shots and 7th in short handed TOI.

 

[Bubba88]

Letang has proven that he can shutdown a line yesterday? Really?


not to mention that Orpik and Martin face tougher competition and Letang missed 25% of the season

 

[Smokey Thompson]

Watching Subban play every other night, you can see how he's become a very solid two-way dman. He's second on the team in scoring while playing great defensively and dishing big hits. Sutter may be better defensively, but the difference between their defensive play is dwarfed by the difference in their offensive play, making Subban the better all around defenseman.

The difference will come down to Sutter averaging more minutes than Subban and playing against tougher competition. Chances are he'll get the nod over the other two finalists.

 

[Firestar27]

Don't forget Subban is also +12 this season.

Compare that to Phaneuf's -4....

Not only did Subban end up with a lot of points this year, it means he was also pretty good defensively. He plays a lot of minute also on the ice per game. It also means he's important on the 5vs5.


Maybe was Phaneuf used against other teams top lines more often, I don't know, but it's hard to deny that Subban doesn't deserve to be nominated. Subban is MTL's best defenseman, so IMO he must've played many times against top players.

 

[Bubba88]

Just reading this, I get the feeling that you haven't seen more than 3 games Suter played in last season.

Is it just me or have the Habs take over the Leafs Fans in terms of overvalueing their own players and hype them up and say they are better than they really are?

 

[Sir Psycho T]

Don't forget Subban is also +12 this season.

Compare that to Phaneuf's -4....

Not only did Subban end up with a lot of points this year, it means he was also pretty good defensively. He plays a lot of minute also on the ice per game. It also means he's important on the 5vs5.


Maybe was Phaneuf used against other teams top lines more often, I don't know, but it's hard to deny that Subban doesn't deserve to be nominated. Subban is MTL's best defenseman, so IMO he must've played many times against top players.

It's not an opinion thing, there are stats to track it. Subban who played almost no PK time and almost never against teams top lines isn't the best all around D-man. When your 6th on your own team in SH TOI you should never win the Norris because you are the last guy you coach calls upon.