Post-Game Talk: No OT Luck - Jets Lose Game 2 - 5-4 (2OT)

[bumblebeeman]

Again, I hope this isn't directed at me, because I'm not blaming Toby for that goal. Just play in general over the two games back.

Naw, to the posts saying Enstrom caused 2 goals against. Even on the 1 on 1 I can't really blame him, he got beat by the Preds best forward it's gonna happen. I think he's been fine these two games. My vote for scapegoat goes to Hendricks haha

 

[raideralex99]

If you want to keep using a 2 game Corsi sample to convince me Morrow is a better option than Enstrom, stop. He simply isn't.

People seem to forget ... playing the Wild is completely different than playing the Predators. Stats don't look as good playing a better team.

 

[Howard Chuck]

People seem to forget ... playing the Wild is completely different than playing the Predators. Stats don't look as good playing a better team.

Fair enough. We won't all agree on everything all the time.

 

[surixon]

People seem to forget ... playing the Wild is completely different than playing the Predators. Stats don't look as good playing a better team.

Sure but even if you just compare Toby with the rest of his team that played the last two games he's still at the bottom. Hopefully those last two games where all he needed to shake off the rust.

 

[ERYX]

I don't actually mind Subban's antics from a pragmatist point of view.

He is playing loose with the rules, trying to fish things from the set frame of rules that apply for each player. If he gets away with it, it is because he knows how to get away with it.

If playing by the rules is not the path to maximize winning for your team in your case, you are a s**t professional. A professional will maximize winning in any case, even if it means sacrificing your reputation. He is a soldier soldiering for one thing only. You can take your honor code, and after you are done judging, you can shove it right up your arse if it does nothing for winning. Don't be Ned Stark.

I should clarify his cross-checking of Laine I don't care so much about, that's just hockey. But then when Stastny gives him a taste of his own medicine and he falls down and writhes on the ice as if he's an extra in the Omaha Beach scene of Saving Private Ryan, in my view that's never cool. If such antics actually benefit his team, then that's a huge problem with officiating that needs to be dealt with. I'd love to see refs give out way more unsportsmanlike conducts for such nonsense. Once of the reasons I love hockey is because of "the code" that you malign. The main reason I despise soccer (aside from being boring) is all the flopping that goes on. As a fan, if the Oscar-worthy performances are rewarded to the point that it becomes commonplace, that's when I stop watching hockey.

I guess I can't blame a guy for trying to get an edge from a certain perspective. That said, I have never bought into the whole win at all costs thing. Because there is more to life than hockey. While I can understand why a guy would degrade himself thus in hopes of getting an edge, I'll never like it, I'll never say "that's how hockey should be played", and I do think it reflects poorly on the character of the player. I just can't buy into the theme that character doesn't matter only winning does. One of the things I love about TNSE is that they look for character players and I think in the long run character > being a rat, diver, or dirty player. If not on the ice, then in life.

Even if I'm wrong I don't care if I'm "Ned Stark". He was a cool dude in my opinion and the only character worth reading about. After he got offed I quickly lost interest in the book and never watched the TV series beyond an episode or two just to see the production value and how the translated the story from page to screen.

 

[ERYX]

Naw, to the posts saying Enstrom caused 2 goals against. Even on the 1 on 1 I can't really blame him, he got beat by the Preds best forward it's gonna happen. I think he's been fine these two games. My vote for scapegoat goes to Hendricks haha

I re-watched the goals to make sure I was remembering them correctly ... while those two goals weren't solely his fault (other people mucked up and obviously Helle failed to make the save), in my view Enstrom was definitely the worst played in those plays and his poor play was the most important contributing factor to the goals against.

On the Johannsen goal Toby lets Johansenn completely walk around him. Actually even worse than that, Johansen doesn't really even make a move, Enstrom just stops skating backwards for some odd reason and takes a belated swipe with his stick allowing a clean shot. On the OT goal I don't know what Enstrom was doing, he should have been able to see what Buff was doing about 6 feet in front of him, but he didn't even attempt to cover Fiala. And once Fiala had the puck Toby just looks like he's "controller disconnected" he doesn't even attempt to stop Fiala making that move on Helle. It's like he missed blocking the pass, pulls his stick back and just gives up. Maybe he was gassed, I don't know. But it looked bad.

Granted, this is all stuff happening in the space of seconds and I'm watching it on replay multiple times. I'm sure not saying I would have done better. But I am saying I think others (NHLers) could have/would have shown more effort and better decision making there.

 

[Adam da bomb]

Sure but even if you just compare Toby with the rest of his team that played the last two games he's still at the bottom. Hopefully those last two games where all he needed to shake off the rust.

But if you just want to go by the two games you can say that Tanev is a better goal scorer than Lanie, Connor, Wheeler and Ehlers.

 

[scelaton]

I don't actually mind Subban's antics from a pragmatist point of view.

He is playing loose with the rules, trying to fish things from the set frame of rules that apply for each player. If he gets away with it, it is because he knows how to get away with it.

If playing by the rules is not the path to maximize winning for your team in your case, you are a s**t professional. A professional will maximize winning in any case, even if it means sacrificing your reputation. He is a soldier soldiering for one thing only. You can take your honor code, and after you are done judging, you can shove it right up your arse if it does nothing for winning. Don't be Ned Stark.

Except that the way the rules are enforced, actions that risk injuring opposing players can be to the team's advantage, because the consequences to the perpetrator are often minimal. Is Scheifele a sh***y professional because he doesn't play like Marchand? How about Laine? In Subban's case, twisting Scheifele's knee (not the first time he has contacted opposing players' knees) or cross-checking Laine's ribs are simply not OK , and that is the Stark reality of it!

 

[surixon]

But if you just want to go by the two games you can say that Tanev is a better goal scorer than Lanie, Connor, Wheeler and Ehlers.

The sample size is most certainly not indicative of anything long term but it does at least give some indication to the notion the certain players have played well or not on those few games. I don't think Toby has played to his capabilities, he's not alone in that regard.

 

[Ducky10]

I re-watched the goals to make sure I was remembering them correctly ... while those two goals weren't solely his fault (other people mucked up and obviously Helle failed to make the save), in my view Enstrom was definitely the worst played in those plays and his poor play was the most important contributing factor to the goals against.

On the Johannsen goal Toby lets Johansenn completely walk around him. Actually even worse than that, Johansen doesn't really even make a move, Enstrom just stops skating backwards for some odd reason and takes a belated swipe with his stick allowing a clean shot. On the OT goal I don't know what Enstrom was doing, he should have been able to see what Buff was doing about 6 feet in front of him, but he didn't even attempt to cover Fiala. And once Fiala had the puck Toby just looks like he's "controller disconnected" he doesn't even attempt to stop Fiala making that move on Helle. It's like he missed blocking the pass, pulls his stick back and just gives up. Maybe he was gassed, I don't know. But it looked bad.

Granted, this is all stuff happening in the space of seconds and I'm watching it on replay multiple times. I'm sure not saying I would have done better. But I am saying I think others (NHLers) could have/would have shown more effort and better decision making there.

This is the oddest analysis of that goal as I've seen.

 

[grieves]

Except that the way the rules are enforced, actions that risk injuring opposing players can be to the team's advantage, because the consequences to the perpetrator are often minimal. Is Scheifele a sh***y professional because he doesn't play like Marchand? How about Laine? In Subban's case, twisting Scheifele's knee (not the first time he has contacted opposing players' knees) or cross-checking Laine's ribs are simply not OK , and that is the Stark reality of it!

Of course I am not advocating hurting anyone, nor do I think that is beneficial in the long run. But you only need one rat on the team to rile people up. That's the whole point, to rile people up into making mistakes or tilting. You need to have a certain personality for that too.

We can cry about honor all we want but at the end of the day, Subban has his niche as a player, and his Marchand-esque antics certainly seem to have people upset, which is his goal. Besides, you can get called for embellishment among other things so it's a fine and risky line to meddle with and I certainly would not be ok with our star players risking it.

The whole point of the Stark storyline is to show that a strict adherence to honor when your opponent is not bound by such things will get you killed. Honor can be a good thing but you need some f**kery to go along with it because otherwise you are just not as efficient.

But yeah, I'm not saying I especially enjoy watching this type of play, I'm just saying that if there are rules in place, and Subban's antics are resulting in wins, then I understand it from a pragmatist perspective. Why should he care what anyone thinks about his play. The referees will decide whether he is embellishing etc.

 

[grieves]

I should clarify his cross-checking of Laine I don't care so much about, that's just hockey. But then when Stastny gives him a taste of his own medicine and he falls down and writhes on the ice as if he's an extra in the Omaha Beach scene of Saving Private Ryan, in my view that's never cool. If such antics actually benefit his team, then that's a huge problem with officiating that needs to be dealt with. I'd love to see refs give out way more unsportsmanlike conducts for such nonsense. Once of the reasons I love hockey is because of "the code" that you malign. The main reason I despise soccer (aside from being boring) is all the flopping that goes on. As a fan, if the Oscar-worthy performances are rewarded to the point that it becomes commonplace, that's when I stop watching hockey.

I guess I can't blame a guy for trying to get an edge from a certain perspective. That said, I have never bought into the whole win at all costs thing. Because there is more to life than hockey. While I can understand why a guy would degrade himself thus in hopes of getting an edge, I'll never like it, I'll never say "that's how hockey should be played", and I do think it reflects poorly on the character of the player. I just can't buy into the theme that character doesn't matter only winning does. One of the things I love about TNSE is that they look for character players and I think in the long run character > being a rat, diver, or dirty player. If not on the ice, then in life.

Even if I'm wrong I don't care if I'm "Ned Stark". He was a cool dude in my opinion and the only character worth reading about. After he got offed I quickly lost interest in the book and never watched the TV series beyond an episode or two just to see the production value and how the translated the story from page to screen.

See above.

I get your point, I also don't enjoy watching grown men flopping on the ice. But if the flopping around gets them the cup, and we are left holding sausages on the beach, we might want to revisit our priorities on that regard. That is my point.

Life usually doesn't have such a strict rule system in place. Subban is operating within this rule system. If the league wants changes, they know they can implement rule changes in regards to Marcand-esque players.