No charges over Adam Johnson death

[Midnight Judges]

It's really not impossible to prove... it is on video and staring everyone in the face.

His intent and his mindset are effectively impossible to prove is what I meant.

 

[SomeDude]

Since we are now aware it is possible for someone to be fatally injured in this way, do the people who are upset that no charges were filed think any hockey player who drags their leg out in attempt to make contact with a player should be charged with attempted murder or something similar?

I’m not trying to be argumentative, it’s an honest question. If he had been charged and found guilty, you would think it would set a precedent, at least in Britain.

Where would the line be drawn of someone acting out of the lines of the sport and should be held legally liable? If someone delivers a head shot that causes CTE to develop years later and leads to someone taking their life, should the person(s) who hit them be retroactively punished? Should all these players who are dying young be treated as murder investigations?

When does the acceptance of the inherent risk of playing a pretty dangerous sport kick in?

 

[Midnight Judges]

Since we are now aware it is possible for someone to be fatally injured in this way, do the people who are upset that no charges were filed think any hockey player who drags their leg out in attempt to make contact with a player should be charged with attempted murder or something similar?

I’m not trying to be argumentative, it’s an honest question. If he had been charged and found guilty, you would think it would set a precedent, at least in Britain.

Where would the line be drawn of someone acting out of the lines of the sport and should be held legally liable? If someone delivers a head shot that causes CTE to develop years later and leads to someone taking their life, should the person(s) who hit them be retroactively punished? Should all these players who are dying young be treated as murder investigations?

When does the acceptance of the inherent risk of playing a pretty dangerous sport kick in?

All good questions and no easy answers.

Personally, imo the bar for criminal charges in any liberal free country is necessarily quite high.

 

[Toby91ca]

It's objectively not as seen by the fact that nobody has died from those sorts of hits.

That is simply not true. People have died from going headfirst into the boards. I've heard of a few, but I'm sure there are lots more. This is the only time I've ever heard of someone dying from being cut with a skate....again, probably more instances as well that I simply haven't heard of, or perhaps I've just blocked some from my memory. There have definitely been a couple close calls in the NHL.

 

[Kranix]

maybe I have that video replay bias syndrome or whatever, but I still can't watch it without thinking he is doing some crazy jumpkick attack at him.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Well I think I came to the correct conclusion without months of investigation. Again, the parents... their grief will flow over onto the lives of their remaining children, and further. It's the type of thing that drowns an entire family in depression, anger, sadness, forever.

And this is why i am thankful we have juries in the United States (I know many countries do). I cannot imagine a group of people all coming to your conclusion of wanting to criminally punish a hockey player for something tragic. Totally entitled to your opinion though, but phew

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

But the twitter racists insisted it was a slamdunk case

Were we misled?

 

[Toby91ca]

I don't know the British legal system i don't what charges are available ect..

But his actions were about as reckless as they come. It was intentional. Was he intentionally trying to hurt him? No ...he just didn't want Johnson to get by him and he intentionally swung his leg around recklessly and caused his death..just like he has done previously in Junior games.

He should of been charged with something.

This is pretty much how I see it. Play looked recklass to me, but I'd also conclude that he was trying to impede his progress with his leg....super dangerous though. Saw some of the UK legal stuff noted and I can see where this would be basically impossible to convict a guy on. Even in North America, if you start going down the manslaughter road, even involuntary manslaughter road....I don't know enough. I know the basics, key difference between murder and manslaughter is intent. I think it's safe to say he had no intent on killing the guy, probably no intent on even injuring him....you can sort of tell that from his reaction. That's where I get fuzzy on the law though. With involuntary manslaughter you are looking at a recklass act, while not intending to cause harm, but you end up killing someone. Where it's tough for me to understand with examples, I think of car accidents. You may be charged with involuntary manslaughter if you are driving drunk and kill someone, but what if you aren't drinking and you make a mistake at the wheel and end up killing someone? You likely did something recklassly, but unlikely you end up being charged with manslaughter in most cases.

 

[blundluntman]

It's a slippery slope from a criminal case pov, not surprised with this outcome. Wouldn't be surprised to see a civil suit though. If Petgrave has any guilt, he should be willing to at least reach some common ground with the family and meet their demands. What's done is done, jail's out the question now, just try to salvage what's left of things and make shit right.

I'm still pretty convinced the kicking motion was intentional independent of the result. With that being said, I don't think he should be allowed to play organized hockey again.

 

[BB79]

This Petgrave jackwad should never play a game again. Hopefully there's a civil suit against him next

 

[Dirty Dog]

I don't know the British legal system i don't what charges are available ect..

But his actions were about as reckless as they come. It was intentional. Was he intentionally trying to hurt him? No ...he just didn't want Johnson to get by him and he intentionally swung his leg around recklessly and caused his death..just like he has done previously in Junior games.

He should have been charged with something.

Sports are full of reckless plays that could have a foreseeable fatal consequence. Plays that are dangerous, outside the rules of the sport, frowned upon, warrant suspensions, etc. Plays that should be eradicated from the sport. I’ve seen thousands of them in hockey and football.

Imposing criminal penalties in violent sports for this recklessness is wild to me, and thankfully something courts haven’t been willing to do.

Like I said, this is why I’m happy we have juries—in case prosecutors and judges start going down this slippery road

 

[Jared Grayden]

Sports are full of reckless plays that could have a foreseeable fatal consequence. Plays that are dangerous, outside the rules of the sport, frowned upon, warrant suspensions, etc. Plays that should be eradicated from the sport. I’ve seen thousands of them in hockey and football.

Imposing criminal penalties in violent sports for this recklessness is wild to me, and thankfully something courts haven’t been willing to do.

Like I said, this is why I’m happy we have juries—in case prosecutors and judges start going down this slippery road

McSorley got charged for far less.

 

[blundluntman]

Since we are now aware it is possible for someone to be fatally injured in this way, do the people who are upset that no charges were filed think any hockey player who drags their leg out in attempt to make contact with a player should be charged with attempted murder or something similar?

I’m not trying to be argumentative, it’s an honest question. If he had been charged and found guilty, you would think it would set a precedent, at least in Britain.

Where would the line be drawn of someone acting out of the lines of the sport and should be held legally liable? If someone delivers a head shot that causes CTE to develop years later and leads to someone taking their life, should the person(s) who hit them be retroactively punished? Should all these players who are dying young be treated as murder investigations?

When does the acceptance of the inherent risk of playing a pretty dangerous sport kick in?

Most reasonable people wanted a manslaughter charge, likely with a shortened sentence given the context. That should be the baseline for this discussion if there's gonna be any room for nuance here.

There's a level of discretion involved with "hockey plays". The Petgrave situation isn't a hockey play to begin with. In most egregious cases where a manslaughter is even considered, establishing intent isn't quite as difficult as you're making it out to be (the Petgrave one is the most difficult of the one I've seen, but also had the worst outcome obviously). Steve Moore actually filed a civil suit and Bertuzzi was willing to pay comply if you remember. That just shows there's some history of incidents during a game bleeding into the legal world.

Headhunting and CTE related plays will never be tried criminally if it at least looks like a hockey play gone wrong. A skate to the throat, fist to the back of a head (after a whistle, and responsible for paralysis), stick to the temple, etc. is pretty easily distinguishable and doesn't fall within the boundaries of sport.

For something to be charged for murder (not manslaughter), the intent would have to be traumatically obvious.

 

[CaliSabresfan24]

The fact that he has a history of using his leg dangerously like that irks me...

I don't believe Petgrave was trying to kick him in the throat but he was clearly trying get a piece of Johnson with his leg and you can't convince me otherwise.

Its a dirty/reckless play that Petgrave has done before but if he continues to play and pulls that shit again, he should never be allowed to play hockey at a professional level ever again.

 

[blundluntman]

The fact that he has a history of using his leg dangerously like that irks me...

I don't believe Petgrave was trying to kick him in the throat but he was clearly trying get a piece of Johnson with his leg and you can't convince me otherwise.

Its a dirty/reckless play that Petgrave has done before but if he continues to play and pulls that shit again, he should never be allowed to play hockey at a professional level ever again.

At that point, the league that allowed him to play should be tried in a civil case as well.

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

McSorley got charged for far less.

Because it's easy to establish intent with what McSorely did. He was trailing the play and whacked a guy in the head from behind, neither were anywhere near the puck. There's zero ambiguity.

In this case, Petgrave got tangled up with a guy and went flying to the ice, something that happens every game, so already you have difficulty establishing intent to a jury.

 

[Dirty Dog]

McSorley got charged for far less.

There are a few examples, literally just a few of athletes being charged for actions on the field that everyone agrees were not part of a play. And even those are very few and far between. Ciccarelli is another example. Not many.

 

[BiolaRunner]

In the UK, do they weigh the likelihood of getting a conviction like they do in the US? Based off the threads here about it, it always would've ended in a hung jury

 

[Kojo]

That's sad story.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Because it's easy to establish intent with what McSorely did. He was trailing the play and whacked a guy in the head from behind, neither were anywhere near the puck. There's zero ambiguity.

In this case, Petgrave got tangled up with a guy and went flying to the ice, something that happens every game, so already you have difficulty establishing intent to a jury.

Agreed, big difference between the two

1) The most protected conduct is anything that happens during the play and can remotely be considered an attempt to make a play or anything along those lines. I don’t think anything falling in that category has ever been charged, though I could be wrong. Petgrave’s actions fall into this category

2) Then you have conduct that happens on the field/ice, but aren’t plays. Like McSorely and Ciccarelli. Or maybe McSorley was during a play? But regardless, still would be in this category or in between categories one and two. Still extremely rare to get charged with a crime, but you lose the benefit of you actions being a play.

3) Then you’d have criminal conduct that just coincidentally happens during a sporting event. Ron arrest running into the stands to beat someone up isn’t a sports play at all. While still rarely charged, that’s just because this conduct is rare.

 

[SomeDude]

Most reasonable people wanted a manslaughter charge, likely with a shortened sentence given the context. That should be the baseline for this discussion if there's gonna be any room for nuance here.

There's a level of discretion involved with "hockey plays". The Petgrave situation isn't a hockey play to begin with. In most egregious cases where a manslaughter is even considered, establishing intent isn't quite as difficult as you're making it out to be (the Petgrave one is the most difficult of the one I've seen, but also had the worst outcome obviously). Steve Moore actually filed a civil suit and Bertuzzi was willing to pay comply if you remember. That just shows there's some history of incidents during a game bleeding into the legal world.

Headhunting and CTE related plays will never be tried criminally if it at least looks like a hockey play gone wrong. A skate to the throat, fist to the back of a head (after a whistle, and responsible for paralysis), stick to the temple, etc. is pretty easily distinguishable and doesn't fall within the boundaries of sport.

For something to be charged for murder (not manslaughter), the intent would have to be traumatically obvious.

I think he was trying to get his leg around to make contact to impede Johnson so he couldn’t blow past him, which to me, is as much of a hockey play as a check to the head. Both are penalties but they happen.

As you alluded to, the only cases I can remember drawing criminal charges in the NHL are McSorely and Bertuzzi which are not very comparable as there was obvious intent.

There is nothing as obvious about this case which probably played a big rule in the decision to not pursue charges.

 

[Filthy Dangles]

Here was a close call in the NHL of a guy being reckless with his legs/feet. Dallas D-man clearly kicks his leg out to hook/get a piece of NSH player, and it rode up high like Petgrave's.

 

[Beerz]

His intent and his mindset are effectively impossible to prove is what I meant.

It isn't... his intent is clear as day... He 100% intended to swing his leg recklessly.

 

[Beerz]

Here was a close call in the NHL of a guy being reckless with his legs/feet. Dallas D-man clearly kicks his leg out to hook/get a piece of NSH player, and it rode up high like Petgrave's.

This is nothing like the Petgrave incident

 

[Filthy Dangles]

This is nothing like the Petgrave incident

The Dallas defenseman purposefully, and recklessly kick/sticks out his leg in an attempt to hook the NSH player into the boards with him. He lost body control and his skate blate nearly cut his face/neck.

If you can't concede and agree on those points, idk what you wanna talk about.