Nikita Kucherov 2023-24 vs Jaromir Jagr 1995-96
- Thread starter Felidae
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60+ goals and 140+ points on a goalie > 37 goals and 130 points on a goalie
hamzarocks
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Pretty similar offensively. I’d give Jagr the edge for his possession game.
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Pucklington
Zum Bäcker.
Imagine Jagr next to Hedman and Stamkos.
Felidae
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Jagr had the better supporting cast in 1995. It's indisputable. Team stats reflect that and so do the point leaders on each team.
Also, the current iteration of Stamkos is a bit past his prime, or close to it. So bringing him up doesn't help your point.
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Hedman & Stamkos are nothing special compared to Lemieux.
Lemieux was Gretzky level talent when he wasn't injured.
Luigi Lemieux
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His linemates were Nedved and Francis that year.
Felidae
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So does anyone know how many points Lemieux and Jagr had together that year? And what was their ATOI and/or total TOI spent together?
The info might sway voters one way or the other
It is also worth noting however, that Jagr was not facing the top lines due to Lemieux. It's a double edged sword in that he was facing weaker competition, but also likely getting less TOI than if Lemieux were absent
The info might sway voters one way or the other
It is also worth noting however, that Jagr was not facing the top lines due to Lemieux. It's a double edged sword in that he was facing weaker competition, but also likely getting less TOI than if Lemieux were absent
WalterLundy
Registered User
Adjusted to 2023-24 levels:
2.36 EVG, 0.63 PPG, 0.09 SHG
96 Jagr:
82 GP: 61 G, 84 A, 145 P (1.77)
(107 EVP, 36 PPP, 2 SHP)
(46 even strength goals)
24 Kucherov:
81 GP: 44 G, 100 A, 144 P (1.78)
(91 EVP, 53 PPP, 0 SHP)
99 Jagr:
81 GP: 52 G, 94 A, 146 P (1.80)
(105 EVP, 40 PPP, 1 SHP)
(42 even strength goals)
Jagr in 1995-96 had the most even strength points and goals. Also had the highest even strength point per game average above Lindros and Lemieux. His linemates that year were Petr Nedved and Ron Francis. Yes he got to play on the powerplay with Mario but that’s where Mario racked up 79 of his own 161. Jagr got 51 of his 149 on the powerplay that season and was clearly the most dominant player at even strength that year. Jagr didn’t get his points on the man advantage.
If people want to pick Kucherov because the points per game is virtually identical and because he led his team by a remarkable margin I fully get it. I’d go 95-96 Jagr by a hair due to even strength dominance and far superior goal scoring.
98-99 Jagr I’d take over both even though points per game is still close. What he did at even strength that year and overall with that cast is truly incredible. I don’t say this to diminish Kucherov. Statistically his year is there with Jagr’s best but I’d still go Jagr for those reasons.
2.36 EVG, 0.63 PPG, 0.09 SHG
96 Jagr:
82 GP: 61 G, 84 A, 145 P (1.77)
(107 EVP, 36 PPP, 2 SHP)
(46 even strength goals)
24 Kucherov:
81 GP: 44 G, 100 A, 144 P (1.78)
(91 EVP, 53 PPP, 0 SHP)
99 Jagr:
81 GP: 52 G, 94 A, 146 P (1.80)
(105 EVP, 40 PPP, 1 SHP)
(42 even strength goals)
Jagr in 1995-96 had the most even strength points and goals. Also had the highest even strength point per game average above Lindros and Lemieux. His linemates that year were Petr Nedved and Ron Francis. Yes he got to play on the powerplay with Mario but that’s where Mario racked up 79 of his own 161. Jagr got 51 of his 149 on the powerplay that season and was clearly the most dominant player at even strength that year. Jagr didn’t get his points on the man advantage.
If people want to pick Kucherov because the points per game is virtually identical and because he led his team by a remarkable margin I fully get it. I’d go 95-96 Jagr by a hair due to even strength dominance and far superior goal scoring.
98-99 Jagr I’d take over both even though points per game is still close. What he did at even strength that year and overall with that cast is truly incredible. I don’t say this to diminish Kucherov. Statistically his year is there with Jagr’s best but I’d still go Jagr for those reasons.
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Luigi Lemieux
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In 98-99 he played with two rookies Jan Hrdina and Kip Miller.
Jagr obviously proved he didn't need Lemieux, also didn't play with him at even strength that season and he was the best even strength scorer in the NHL and controlled play better than Kucherov which led to less goals against.
Then there's the case of 14 empty net points vs. how many for Jagr? It's really not a tough choice to make for me when considering everything.
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Also we need to stop pretending Kucherov is playing with crappy linemates. I get that he's far ahead of anyone on his own team which is part of what makes his season so impressive and adds to his case for the Hart trophy, but when you're constantly playing with 1 or 2 40+ goal scorers at even strength and on the powerplay and a point per game defensemen, all of whom you've been playing with for a decade and have built probably the best chemistry of any group in the NHL I don't think the linemates argument is a good one.
Linemates have a bigger effect on production than competition. Countless examples of the "2nd line" players flourishing and having even better seasons without the #1 center, Jagr had his best season without Lemieux on the team, Malkin had his best season when Crosby played just 22 games, and those players are better than Kucherov. Why couldn't they post better seasons when they were feasting on 2nd pairs?
Mario was in on 12 of Jagr’s 95 ES points, 37 of his 51 PP points and 1 of his 3 SH points
*Edited to add missed PP point
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It's 12 EV, 37 PP and 1 SH point actually, slight correction. 50 total
Didn't Jagr play with Francis? 4th in scoring in NHL that season with 119 points. Not only did Jagr have the weaker matchups, he had the better linemates than Lemieux
Francis was in on 47 of hif 95 ES points
Nedved was in on 46 of his 95 ES points
Jagr is great - but 1996 isn't even his best year. He benefited greatly from Mario Lemieux that season.
Kucherov 2023-2024 > Jagr 1995-1996
WalterLundy
Registered User
Best seasons (ranked by ppg) of the last 30 years when adjusted to the 2023-24 environment of 2.36 EVG, 0.63 PPG, 0.09 SHG
96 Lemieux:
70 GP: 61 G, 83 A, 144 P (2.06)
21 McDavid:
56 GP: 35 G, 77 A, 112 P (2.00)
23 McDavid:
82 GP: 63 G, 88 A, 151 P (1.84)
99 Jagr:
81 GP: 52 G, 94 A, 146 P (1.80)
24 Kucherov:
81 GP: 44 G, 100 A, 144 P (1.78)
96 Jagr:
82 GP: 61 G, 84 A, 145 P (1.77)
24 McDavid:
76 GP: 32 G, 100 A, 132 P (1.74)
24 MacKinnon:
81 GP: 51 G, 89 A, 140 P (1.71)
00 Jagr:
63 GP: 48 G, 59 A, 107 P (1.70)
12 Malkin:
75 GP: 58 G, 68 A, 126 P (1.68)
97 Lemieux:
76 GP: 52 G, 75 A, 127 P (1.67)
10 Ovechkin:
72 GP: 56 G, 63 A, 119 P (1.65)
01 Jagr:
81 GP: 59 G, 74 A, 133 P (1.64)
03 Forsberg:
75 GP: 34 G, 89 A, 123 P (1.64)
19 Kucherov:
82 GP: 43 G, 91 A, 134 P (1.63)
Wanted to put a list together of the best years for points per game of the last 30 years if all were transferred to this years levels. From here you can look at what you value most (goals, assists, even strength, help, etc.) and decide which is best but I thought this would help everyone to decide which season ranks where.
May not be entirely relevant but I can also add 1980-1993 best seasons to include Gretzky’s best and a few extra Lemieux seasons. Let’s see if this is helpful first.
96 Lemieux:
70 GP: 61 G, 83 A, 144 P (2.06)
21 McDavid:
56 GP: 35 G, 77 A, 112 P (2.00)
23 McDavid:
82 GP: 63 G, 88 A, 151 P (1.84)
99 Jagr:
81 GP: 52 G, 94 A, 146 P (1.80)
24 Kucherov:
81 GP: 44 G, 100 A, 144 P (1.78)
96 Jagr:
82 GP: 61 G, 84 A, 145 P (1.77)
24 McDavid:
76 GP: 32 G, 100 A, 132 P (1.74)
24 MacKinnon:
81 GP: 51 G, 89 A, 140 P (1.71)
00 Jagr:
63 GP: 48 G, 59 A, 107 P (1.70)
12 Malkin:
75 GP: 58 G, 68 A, 126 P (1.68)
97 Lemieux:
76 GP: 52 G, 75 A, 127 P (1.67)
10 Ovechkin:
72 GP: 56 G, 63 A, 119 P (1.65)
01 Jagr:
81 GP: 59 G, 74 A, 133 P (1.64)
03 Forsberg:
75 GP: 34 G, 89 A, 123 P (1.64)
19 Kucherov:
82 GP: 43 G, 91 A, 134 P (1.63)
Wanted to put a list together of the best years for points per game of the last 30 years if all were transferred to this years levels. From here you can look at what you value most (goals, assists, even strength, help, etc.) and decide which is best but I thought this would help everyone to decide which season ranks where.
May not be entirely relevant but I can also add 1980-1993 best seasons to include Gretzky’s best and a few extra Lemieux seasons. Let’s see if this is helpful first.
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In your opinion. I watched both play, Jagr was a force and every bit as good as his point totals indicated. He had firmly entered his prime at that point and that's the type of production you could expect of him given the scoring enviroment. Even if Lemieux boosted his totals a bit that season he was a better overall player than Kucherov, he drove the play and controlled the puck like very few other players, even better than Lemieux at that point at even strength and certainly better than Kucherov. I would also say Ron Francis benefitted from the situation he was in much more than Jagr did. Any boost Jagr saw that season would be negated by Kucherov's 14 empty net points which are still easier than scoring on a goalie no matter how you slice it.
You've been on this weird anti-Kucherov crusade all year for some reason...maybe you just dont like him.
Your response here is pretty much "eye test says Jagr looked better". Cool....maybe? To me it's more about results than the eye test.
Adjusted for scoring era - and even moreso for the benefit of having Lemieux on your team (both directly for points, and indirectly for matchups) - Kucherov had the better season. Even if the eye test might say different.
I have no doubt Francis's point totals benefitted more from Jagr than vice versa. But the comparison is Francis vs....Point this year. And on a 2nd line, vs 1st line matchups. That's clear edge Jagr.
But even without any of these linemate/matchups advantages- Kucherov is simply higher scoring if you adjust for era.
