Player Discussion Nick Suzuki Part 11

[Lafleurs Guy]

Point is a close to PPG in career player with 3 90pts + season and 4 40g season what Suzuki never did. and defensively they are comparable.

But yes, on that list he's the one who's the closest to Suzuki

And I don't think he's a franchise player.

Kucherov is. Hedman is. Vasilevsky is.

 

[Vachon23]

And I don't think he's a franchise player.

Kucherov is. Hedman is. Vasilevsky is.

I don't think Point is a franchise player either

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I don't think Point is a franchise player either

The difference of course is that Suzuki's a lot more important to the Montreal Canadiens than Point is to the Lightning. But does that mean he's a franchise player?

Depends how you define 'franchise player.'

 

[Vachon23]

The difference of course is that Suzuki's a lot more important to the Montreal Canadiens than Point is to the Lightning. But does that mean he's a franchise player?

Depends how you define 'franchise player.'

I think you resume it pretty well

someone who is at the top of his position

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I think you resume it pretty well

someone who is at the top of his position

If we rhyme off franchise players the guys who will come up are those mega superstars. Suzuki's not in that class. Neither is Point or O'Reilly. I don't think of them as a franchise player.

If Suzuki's your best player are you going to win a cup? I don't think so. Not unless you have multiple players of his caliber on the roster. St Louis did it... Carolina.... but it's rare. I can see Hutson becoming a franchise player. Demidov maybe? But that's it.

Price was a franchise player. I don't think Saku Koivu or Andrei Markov were. They aren't HOF caliber players. Subban I think qualified before he was hurt.

 

[Jack Spider]

On a talent and game breaking ability basis, I think EA NHL used to do a great job at differentiating between Franchise, Elite and Top line player. Price was the only one for Montreal. A franchise player would be, the generational players, and the players just under that if we're being generous we could say they are generational. Malkin. Potential, Demidov would be one, Hutson probably not. We could start including more criterias like leadership but then that's something you can only judge late in their careers. I'd only have Kucherov there from Tampa.

 

[HuGo Burner Acc]

I'm not sure what you're arguing here. I mean of course Suzuki's a number one. I think he may even qualify as a franchise player. It kinda depends on how you look at it.

I don't think Point's a franchise player. Do you? Eichel? Sure. Backstrom? No. Toews? Yeah... O'Reilly? No.

Ask a Leaf fan if Wendel Clark was a franchise player and I think many will say yes. The guy was a heart and soul type guy and really, really good. Got hurt a lot but he was amazing. Was he a franchise player though? I don't know.

In some ways Suzuki qualifies. He's THE leader on this team. Apart from some stretches from Caufield Suzuki's has always been our best player and there hasn't been a full season that he wasn't our best player at the end of it. But I don't have him in that mega superstar category. I think it depends on how you look at it.

When I think of 'franchise player' it's a no brainer type thing. They are generally better than an average superstar. Crosby, Mackinnon, Karlsson, Doughty, Ovechkin, Price, Lundqvist, Pronger... super elite.

I was just implying that franchise centres are overrated to overall team success (Stanley cups) and Suzuki while not being one is comparable to most 1Cs to win cups recently

 

[HuGo Burner Acc]

Point is a close to PPG in career player with 3 90pts + season and 4 40g season what Suzuki never did. and defensively they are comparable.

But yes, on that list he's the one who's the closest to Suzuki

But you can't compare them without mentioning that Point has been with a dominant team his whole career. His first 90+ pt season came on that historically great team that lost to Columbus in the first round. He got 90 pts in 2023-24. Kucherov literally got 144 pts. And he plays on both the PP with him and is on the same line as him. Even again this year, he had a lower PPG than Suzuki playing with Kucherov who is winning his 2nd Art Ross in a row. The season he got 95 pts was when he scored over 50 goals and his shooting % was ridiculously high.

In comparison, Suzuki has had to play on historically bad to mid teams his entire career. This was the best team he had and they barely made the playoffs. He still got 89 pts which is statistically better than every season Point has had besides 3. And then when you factor in the team and linemates Point had, I would argue that Suzuki had a better year this season than Point has ever had. What happens when Suzuki plays with a prime Demidov and an actual 2nd line behind him?

AND he's better defensively than Point.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I was just implying that franchise centres are overrated to overall team success (Stanley cups) and Suzuki while not being one is comparable to most 1Cs to win cups recently

There are many ways to skin a cat. That’s why it was so important to build around Price while we could. How many players can steal you multiple playoff series on bad clubs? Not many.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

But you can't compare them without mentioning that Point has been with a dominant team his whole career. His first 90+ pt season came on that historically great team that lost to Columbus in the first round. He got 90 pts in 2023-24. Kucherov literally got 144 pts. And he plays on both the PP with him and is on the same line as him. Even again this year, he had a lower PPG than Suzuki playing with Kucherov who is winning his 2nd Art Ross in a row. The season he got 95 pts was when he scored over 50 goals and his shooting % was ridiculously high.

In comparison, Suzuki has had to play on historically bad to mid teams his entire career. This was the best team he had and they barely made the playoffs. He still got 89 pts which is statistically better than every season Point has had besides 3. And then when you factor in the team and linemates Point had, I would argue that Suzuki had a better year this season than Point has ever had. What happens when Suzuki plays with a prime Demidov and an actual 2nd line behind him?

AND he's better defensively than Point.

The thing about Suzuki is that he continues to improve. And it’s not just the team around him. He’s a much better player than he used to be.

Add in Demidov and Hutson… Caufield should finally truly be 100 percent next year. I think we’re going to score a crap ton of goals in the coming years.

Suzuki will be a late bloomer who gets better into his late 20s. While not rare, it is uncommon. Add in the additional teammate skill and he could crack 100 points at some point. It really is the best case scenario with him. I didn’t think he’d become this good.

The past two seasons he’s turbo charged his play in the last quarter of the season. If he can play anywhere near that level for a full year, we will start throwing around the term superstar with him. He’s alsways been streaky but the low streaks aren’t as low and the highs are incredible. He was on of the best players in the league for 20 games or so the last two seasons. I knew he had an extra gear but his play down the stretch was way beyond what I thought he could do.

 

[Mrb1p]

Here we are underrating Suzuki again lmao.

He just had 90 points while playing defensive and with sub-par support compared to his peers. Of course he's a f***ing franchise player what the hell are you on.

He's a top 15 player in the world and you guys still dont understand the worth, its kinda crazy.

Theres a 20 point difference between Caufield and him, and most here would say Caufield is a slam dunk first liner. Either the range for first liner is massive to cover for the 20 points discrepancy, the massive size albatross and the insane defensive difference or one of them is a franchise player or the other isn't a first liner.

I swear to go this board is just a psyop to ruin my day.

 

[Scriptor]

Suzuki 42nd for goals, tied with Clayton Keller at 41st and Cale Makar at 40th.

Caufield rings in at 15th OA, tied with Artemi Panarin at 14th and the mighty Nikita Kucherov at 13th OA.

Suzuki is 14th OA in assists, tied with Zach Werenski at 13th OA.

Rookie Lane Hutson rings in one better at 12th OA, tied with Quinn Hughes at 11th, Robert Thomas at 10th and Clayton Keller at 9th. He is only two assists behind the mighty Cale Makar!

Suzuki is not a 100-point player (yet?), but he sits 14th OA in the league with 89 points, tied with Artemi Panarin at 13th OA.

As a C, Suzuki is 22nd in Goals, 5th in Assists and 6th in points, two behind Sydney Crosby.

Suzuki may not rank as high in Goals as he does in Assists and Points, but he has scored 20 goals, or more, in the last four seasons, including consecutive 30+ goal seasons in the last two!

Qualifying Suzuki as a late bloomer -- reaching the top-15 in points, 6th OA in the league amongst Cs-- at only 25 is a ridiculous statement. Of modern NHLers who have scored 100 points, or more, how many had dons by the time they were 25? Suzuki hasn't -- and may never -- but he still has miles left on the landing strip to execute, IMO.

Had anybody been able to foretell that the trade of Max Patio-Ready (kudos for these playoffs so far, though) would have yielded a C this productive, a statue of Marc Bergevin would surely have been erected next to Price's statue in Old Montreal! And another of Pacioretty for refusing a trade that made Bergevin look to the Knights for a trade partner!

Maybe another of the Vegas GM for insisting that it be Suzuki and not another C preferred by the Montreal GM, as the local lore goes...

I suspect that every team -- including those with a C ahead of Suzuki in production, given his comparable Cap hit -- would die to have the Montreal pivoting their lineup.

Suzuki would be a 2nd line C on a handful of teams (5) and a first line C on all the others.

Just imagine how crazy it is to think how stacked at C Edmonton was in 2022-2023, when Nugent-Hopkins and his career 104 points would have made Suzuki and his 89 points their fourth potential C in terms of production! McDavid had 153 points and Draisaitl had 128 points!

Suzuki has basically carried this team at C since he was a young pup, all without a 2C, or a second line, worth speaking of in the lineup to support him!

His production level has steadily improved as the pressure had steadily increased. Suzuki is not only productive without an optimal environment around him, but his production this year doesn't risk being an outlier, career year.

Demidov as the beginning of a genuine 2nd line, Reinbacher to steady the D-Corps on the right side and the continued progression of line mates Caufield and Slafkovsky, plus whatever talent Hughes manages to add to the 2nd line and the bottom-6 will all contribute to Suzuki maintaining or improving his current production levels.

Any backhanded slag on Suzuki, or any posts marginalizing his worth, not only to his team, but throughout the NHL, only betrays an unfounded bias against the player, or a complete lack of appreciation for the sport.

The only discussions about Suzuki -- who is also an iron man on the Habs' roster -- should be about what levels of production height rise to with a stronger supporting cast.

I never thought Suzuki would reach his current level of production, but he has proven me wrong about his ceiling and impressed me in the process by being Mr. Clutch as he did so. His ability to rally the troops as he carried the team on his shoulders up front (credit to rookie Hutson on the back end for his 60 assist and Caufield for reaching the 37-Goal plateau this past season).

Why shouldn't we be proud to have a talent like Suzuki and why shouldn't we praise him for the emotions he has helped well up within us?

Go Habs Go!

Captain My Captain!

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Suzuki 42nd for goals, tied with Clayton Keller at 41st and Cale Makar at 40th.

Caufield rings in at 15th OA, tied with Artemi Panarin at 14th and the mighty Nikita Kucherov at 13th OA.

Suzuki is 14th OA in assists, tied with Zach Werenski at 13th OA.

Rookie Lane Hutson rings in one better at 12th OA, tied with Quinn Hughes at 11th, Robert Thomas at 10th and Clayton Keller at 9th. He is only two assists behind the mighty Cale Makar!

Suzuki is not a 100-point player (yet?), but he sits 14th OA in the league with 89 points, tied with Artemi Panarin at 13th OA.

As a C, Suzuki is 22nd in Goals, 5th in Assists and 6th in points, two behind Sydney Crosby.

Suzuki may not rank as high in Goals as he does in Assists and Points, but he has scored 20 goals, or more, in the last four seasons, including consecutive 30+ goal seasons in the last two!

Qualifying Suzuki as a late bloomer -- reaching the top-15 in points, 6th OA in the league amongst Cs-- at only 25 is a ridiculous statement. Of modern NHLers who have scored 100 points, or more, how many had dons by the time they were 25? Suzuki hasn't -- and may never -- but he still has miles left on the landing strip to execute, IMO.

I don't think it's ridiculous to call him a late bloomer at all. It doesn't mean he's sucked until now, it's just that he's really popped at 24, 25 years old. And I suspect his best years will be in his late 20s.

Had anybody been able to foretell that the trade of Max Patio-Ready (kudos for these playoffs so far, though) would have yielded a C this productive, a statue of Marc Bergevin would surely have been erected next to Price's statue in Old Montreal! And another of Pacioretty for refusing a trade that made Bergevin look to the Knights for a trade partner!

Maybe another of the Vegas GM for insisting that it be Suzuki and not another C preferred by the Montreal GM, as the local lore goes...

I suspect that every team -- including those with a C ahead of Suzuki in production, given his comparable Cap hit -- would die to have the Montreal pivoting their lineup.

Suzuki would be a 2nd line C on a handful of teams (5) and a first line C on all the others.

Just imagine how crazy it is to think how stacked at C Edmonton was in 2022-2023, when Nugent-Hopkins and his career 104 points would have made Suzuki and his 89 points their fourth potential C in terms of production! McDavid had 153 points and Draisaitl had 128 points!

Suzuki has basically carried this team at C since he was a young pup, all without a 2C, or a second line, worth speaking of in the lineup to support him!

His production level has steadily improved as the pressure had steadily increased. Suzuki is not only productive without an optimal environment around him, but his production this year doesn't risk being an outlier, career year.

Demidov as the beginning of a genuine 2nd line, Reinbacher to steady the D-Corps on the right side and the continued progression of line mates Caufield and Slafkovsky, plus whatever talent Hughes manages to add to the 2nd line and the bottom-6 will all contribute to Suzuki maintaining or improving his current production levels.

Any backhanded slag on Suzuki, or any posts marginalizing his worth, not only to his team, but throughout the NHL, only betrays an unfounded bias against the player, or a complete lack of appreciation for the sport.

The only discussions about Suzuki -- who is also an iron man on the Habs' roster -- should be about what levels of production height rise to with a stronger supporting cast.

I never thought Suzuki would reach his current level of production, but he has proven me wrong about his ceiling and impressed me in the process by being Mr. Clutch as he did so. His ability to rally the troops as he carried the team on his shoulders up front (credit to rookie Hutson on the back end for his 60 assist and Caufield for reaching the 37-Goal plateau this past season).

Why shouldn't we be proud to have a talent like Suzuki and why shouldn't we praise him for the emotions he has helped well up within us?

Go Habs Go!

Captain My Captain!

Who said we shouldn't be proud of what he's done? Who isn't praising him?

If we say he's not the best player in the league it seems to be taken as a slight. Dude's a legit first liner. He's also demonstrated this year that he can go on a tear and be among the very best players in the league. But he's never done that over an entire year. If he does (and he might) then I think you can start throwing around the term 'superstar.' He has a shot at being one and I would've never predicted that.

 

[tooji]

I'll point this out again, but no player that outscored Suzuki this year was younger than him. So he really is the start of that next wave of elite forwards

 

[Scriptor]

As an aside, IMO, Suzuki qualifies as a franchise Center, Should Montreal land better to complete their top-6, the hockey club would be blessed, but a 60-70 point 2C would be enough to compete/contend with,IMO provided we also added a more dynamic 2nd line LW than Laine as well.

Franchise players,IMO, are cornerstones at a given position.

Montréal has the possibility of having that at C, on the RW with Demidov, should he pan out close to his projected ceiling and on D with Hutson.

That's three cornerstones to build around, one at C, onion thawing and one on D. If Fowlerweretoprovide something similar at the G position(let,sgive the kid change before getting carried away, though), the foundation for a 25th Stanley Cup would definitely be set!

Slafkovsky needs to find consistency from the start of every season, along with more of mean streak to dominate opponents when he is the ice, but he is only 21 as of the very end of March and there is still plenty of upside to tap into as he matures and grows in confidence.

Caufield,as he continues to recover from his serious shoulder injury has not only bought into the 200-foot play that St-Louis has been preaching, but he has executed this consistently this season. His progression seems to mirror that of Suzuki and there is no determined ceiling for the level of production the diminutive sniper can reach.

With Guhle and Reinbacher, on the back end, it's a question of proving they can stay healthy after early injuries in their careers, but, along with Hutson, we have the makings of a solid triumvirat at D to eat up a lot of minutes. If Hughes can add minute-munching, physical, shutdown RHD, we could have someone to support the more offensive and diminutive Hutson, while being able to ice a punishing shutdown pair with offensive upside in Guhle - Reinbacher.

Still a few key additions before we become legitimate contender; a top-6 C, a top-6 LW, a top-4, shutdown RHD,plus some tweaking in the bottom-6 (including preparing for when both Anderson and Gallagher will leave the fold) and at the G position for the long term (hopefully solved internally with Dobes and Fowler as a Goalie tandem, whether there is a definite #1 or whether they play as a 1A,1B).

The future looks bright.

Brighter than anytime in the last 30 years, even when Price was there to bolster the true value of the lineup.

If Fowler becomes just 80% of what Price was, watch out, but, at least, we will not be dependent on an other-worldly G to contend for aCup in four years or so.

GO HABS GO!

 

[Scriptor]

I don't think it's ridiculous to call him a late bloomer at all. It doesn't mean he's sucked until now, it's just that he's really popped at 24, 25 years old. And I suspect his best years will be in his late 20s.

Who said we shouldn't be proud of what he's done? Who isn't praising him?

If we say he's not the best player in the league it seems to be taken as a slight. Dude's a legit first liner. He's also demonstrated this year that he can go on a tear and be among the very best players in the league. But he's never done that over an entire year. If he does (and he might) then I think you can start throwing around the term 'superstar.' He has a shot at being one and I would've never predicted that.

I understand that this, to some, is strictly a young man's league, but 24-25 as breakout years and a players prime between 25 and 30 is really all par for the course with 99% of the players, and far from late-blooming.

Keep in mind that Suzuki, at 25, has only played 6 complete seasons at the NHL level, joining the league as a 20-year old.

Better production at 18-23 is the anomally, not the norm, whatever some would want to pretend. Those are the generationnal exceptions.

It isn't the 10-15 exceptions in the league that make the rule.

Generationnal, Franchise, Elite, Superstar and Star are just subjective goal pole adjectives posters like to use to win arguments while saying the same thing as others are saying, when there ought not to even be an argument.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I understand that this, to some, is strictly a young man's league, but 24-25 as breakout years and a players prime between 25 and 30 is really all par for the course with 99% of the players, and far from late-blooming.

It's not rare... but it's uncommon for superstars to become superstars past 25. Usually they're breaking out in their early 20s and peak between 23-26. Some become better later and I'd call those players 'late bloomers.'

I mean what else would a late bloomer be? Somebody who becomes a superstar past 30? That doesn't happen.

Keep in mind that Suzuki, at 25, has only played 6 complete seasons at the NHL level, joining the league as a 20-year old.

Better production at 18-23 is the anomally, not the norm, whatever some would want to pretend. Those are the generationnal exceptions.

It isn't the 10-15 exceptions in the league that make the rule.

True franchise players have usually broken out in their early 20s. Drai, Matthews, Pasta, McDavid, Maakar, Hughes... they were superstars around 23 or earlier.

But there's some that bloom later. Kucherov for example. Datsyuk...

Generationnal, Franchise, Elite, Superstar and Star are just subjective goal pole adjectives posters like to use to win arguments while saying the same thing as others are saying, when there ought not to even be an argument.

That's why I said it depends how you define it. To me, Suzuki qualifies in some ways and not others. His importance to this team goes far beyond what he does on the ice.

But is he a mega superstar? No. He's a legit first line centerman. He's shown flashes of being able to become a superstar and may get there. But he hasn't done it over a full season yet. If he can play anywhere near the way he did in the last 15 or so games this year over an entire season then I don't think anyone would deny him 'superstar' status.

When I think of 'franchise' player, I think of legit superstar HOF players. That to me is a franchise player. I don't think Suzuki is there now but he may get there.

 

[Scriptor]

The difference of course is that Suzuki's a lot more important to the Montreal Canadiens than Point is to the Lightning. But does that mean he's a franchise player?

Depends how you define 'franchise player.'

With all due respect, arguments in semantics are a bore and, the longer this draws out, the more this is what we are arguing about.

I'll add that he may need repeat performances to convince most, if not everyone.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

As an aside, IMO, Suzuki qualifies as a franchise Center, Should Montreal land better to complete their top-6, the hockey club would be blessed, but a 60-70 point 2C would be enough to compete/contend with,IMO provided we also added a more dynamic 2nd line LW than Laine as well.

Franchise players,IMO, are cornerstones at a given position.

Montréal has the possibility of having that at C, on the RW with Demidov, should he pan out close to his projected ceiling and on D with Hutson.

That's three cornerstones to build around, one at C, onion thawing and one on D. If Fowlerweretoprovide something similar at the G position(let,sgive the kid change before getting carried away, though), the foundation for a 25th Stanley Cup would definitely be set!

Slafkovsky needs to find consistency from the start of every season, along with more of mean streak to dominate opponents when he is the ice, but he is only 21 as of the very end of March and there is still plenty of upside to tap into as he matures and grows in confidence.

Caufield,as he continues to recover from his serious shoulder injury has not only bought into the 200-foot play that St-Louis has been preaching, but he has executed this consistently this season. His progression seems to mirror that of Suzuki and there is no determined ceiling for the level of production the diminutive sniper can reach.

With Guhle and Reinbacher, on the back end, it's a question of proving they can stay healthy after early injuries in their careers, but, along with Hutson, we have the makings of a solid triumvirat at D to eat up a lot of minutes. If Hughes can add minute-munching, physical, shutdown RHD, we could have someone to support the more offensive and diminutive Hutson, while being able to ice a punishing shutdown pair with offensive upside in Guhle - Reinbacher.

Still a few key additions before we become legitimate contender; a top-6 C, a top-6 LW, a top-4, shutdown RHD,plus some tweaking in the bottom-6 (including preparing for when both Anderson and Gallagher will leave the fold) and at the G position for the long term (hopefully solved internally with Dobes and Fowler as a Goalie tandem, whether there is a definite #1 or whether they play as a 1A,1B).

The future looks bright.

Brighter than anytime in the last 30 years, even when Price was there to bolster the true value of the lineup.

If Fowler becomes just 80% of what Price was, watch out, but, at least, we will not be dependent on an other-worldly G to contend for aCup in four years or so.

GO HABS GO!

There's an insane amount of young talent now. I can't wait to see us in three years.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

With all due respect, arguments in semantics are a bore and, the longer this draws out, the more this is what we are arguing about.

Well then... why did you jump in with this?

As I said... depends on how you define it. That should be enough to agree on right?

 

[Scriptor]

Well then... why did you jump in with this?

As I said... depends on how you define it. That should be enough to agree on right?

I did add that, perhaps, repeat performances from Suzuki may be what is needed to convince the last bastion of hold outs.

The other mega superstars you mention didn't produce with zero support throughout the lineup, though.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I did add that, perhaps, repeat performances from Suzuki may be what is needed to convince the last bastion of hold outs.

Repeat performances are what make superstars, superstars...

The other mega superstars you mention didn't produce with zero support throughout the lineup, though.

Holdout for what? As players get better, they get acknowledged for it. Lack of support or not Suzuki was not the caliber of player he is today. He's gone from borderline first line player to possible superstar. He's a much better player than he was.

As he improves, everyone will acknowledge it as they have already. I think he'll be better going forward and I think the team is going to be packed with great scorers. That combination should turbocharge his numbers.

The idea that he's only going to put up better numbers because he'll be better supported is bullshit. He's a much better player than he was and deserves credit for that.

 

[JianYang]

Scoring 89 points while being responsible defensively is one thing.

Scoring 89 points even when the other teams know that Suzuki is the only center they have to worry about? That's even more telling

I was wrong to call him more of a 1b center. He's good, I mean really really good.

I'm not afraid to say when I'm wrong.

 

[Ozmodiar]

Point is a close to PPG in career player with 3 90pts + season and 4 40g season what Suzuki never did. and defensively they are comparable.

But yes, on that list he's the one who's the closest to Suzuki

Point plays alongside Kucherov. Nobody even close on the Habs.

Kooch is a top 3 offensive player in the league.

 

[Habs Icing]

But you can't compare them without mentioning that Point has been with a dominant team his whole career. His first 90+ pt season came on that historically great team that lost to Columbus in the first round. He got 90 pts in 2023-24. Kucherov literally got 144 pts. And he plays on both the PP with him and is on the same line as him. Even again this year, he had a lower PPG than Suzuki playing with Kucherov who is winning his 2nd Art Ross in a row. The season he got 95 pts was when he scored over 50 goals and his shooting % was ridiculously high.

In comparison, Suzuki has had to play on historically bad to mid teams his entire career. This was the best team he had and they barely made the playoffs. He still got 89 pts which is statistically better than every season Point has had besides 3. And then when you factor in the team and linemates Point had, I would argue that Suzuki had a better year this season than Point has ever had. What happens when Suzuki plays with a prime Demidov and an actual 2nd line behind him?

AND he's better defensively than Point.

It's close but I lean towards Suzuki. BTW, you forgot that Suzuki is durable. He has missed 37 games in 6 seasons. I can't remember if they were all due to injuries or because he was watching some of the games from the press box.