Nice Doughty recognition on ESPN FWIW
- Thread starter cyclones22
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Raccoon Jesus
We were right there
Hey! Thanks!
finally, some defensive propaganda that doesn't start with "x is a stellar defenseman, look he's scored 6 points in the last 5 games".
finally, some defensive propaganda that doesn't start with "x is a stellar defenseman, look he's scored 6 points in the last 5 games".
damacles1156
Registered User
- Feb 5, 2010
- 21,668
- 1,318
Right >
Hopefully the media on the east coast is finally realizing that Defense is played at ALL 200ft.
I like Erik Karlsson/Subban, they are both fun to watch, and I understand their coaches/team use them differently. They are in a sense, not traditional defenders.
But to ignore defenders like Doughty/Weber/Suter/Josi due to not putting up as many points, is just outrageous. It's dishonest.
Subban shouldn't have a Norris, and Kalsson should only have one.
Papa Mocha 15
I love the smell of ice in the morning.
Been saying it for awhile now. There should be an award for most points by a DMan and then the Norris. D Men who don't play on the penalty kill or defense on a regular basis shouldn't win a Norris.
Legionnaire
Help On The Way
That stuff bothers me as well. If you watch Drew, he pulls out of plays because he knows he needs to get back. Yeah, that's going to affect numbers. Numbers and trophies. Well, we won the only one that matters TWICE! Something I thought I would never see.
He just has an innate understanding of the game and it is beautiful to watch.
cyclones22
Registered User
And Drew has 2 defining plays in 2 different Stanley Cup Finals that will be replayed for ages. His recognition of when to take over and when not to is tops. When it's best on best, he's the best, hands down.
I don't ever remember a Norris trophy winner that does not kill penalties regularly. Isn't killing penalties one thing you should be able to do as the BEST defenseman.
Legionnaire
Help On The Way
Raccoon Jesus
We were right there
Don't get me wrong, offense is an important part of today's game for an elite two-way d-man, just not at the expense of defense.
Legionnaire
Help On The Way
Didn't doubt your hockey IQ. Karlsson is something special, but a defenseman? How about a rover?
scryan
Registered User
- May 1, 2013
- 3,264
- 0
DD actually has a slightly higher ppg than EK in the playoffs (where everything is on the line)...not to mention facing tougher competition.
Papa Mocha 15
I love the smell of ice in the morning.
That was the biggest criticism of Karlsson. That's why I think they should separate the award. Call it the Paul Coffey award or something like that. It's an old argument, but since we're talking D Man.....
"The biggest knock against Karlsson is his lack of shorthanded time-on-ice. His 33 seconds per game was 227th out of 307 defensemen who played at least one NHL game this year. However, as many Sens fans will tell you, most NHL defensemen are capable of killing penalties. The goal is to block shots, get in passing lanes, and ice the puck. For a player as dominant at even strength and on the powerplay as Karlsson, wasting his minutes on the PK doesn't make sense. Karlsson does kill penalties when one of Ottawa's regular penalty-killing defensemen is in the box, but he isn't a regular because it's not the best use of his skill-set."
http://www.silversevensens.com/2015/4/27/8503729/erik-karlsson-named-as-norris-trophy-finalist
Raccoon Jesus
We were right there
...which is acceptable to a degree, imo. I just don't like when the narrative is spread that he's an all-situations d-man or that he's good defensively when in reality he's deployed and rested for all offense with reckless abandon. And, if you're going to get non-defensive minutes, you'd better damn sure avoid embarassing highlight-reel bad plays--and he's been good for at least one every other game. Hell, the other night his Norris resume was getting pumped some more because he had 3 points--never mind that he was standing around watching on a couple against and was a -3.
He's a curious case to me because he's immensely fun to watch but it's not significantly different from Mike Green.
And the argument that always comes up is that points have always been a part of the Norris--they really have and that's okay. The difference is THOSE guys--Lidstrom, Bourque, Chelios, etc.--were flat out elite on defense and played in all situations. Karlsson is passable on defense and is literally the least PKer on his team.
I'm very glad they're trying to quantify Doughty's all-around game because short of getting 55+ points he won't sniff it.
He's a curious case to me because he's immensely fun to watch but it's not significantly different from Mike Green.
And the argument that always comes up is that points have always been a part of the Norris--they really have and that's okay. The difference is THOSE guys--Lidstrom, Bourque, Chelios, etc.--were flat out elite on defense and played in all situations. Karlsson is passable on defense and is literally the least PKer on his team.
I'm very glad they're trying to quantify Doughty's all-around game because short of getting 55+ points he won't sniff it.
damacles1156
Registered User
- Feb 5, 2010
- 21,668
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Yup,
Doughty has to score another 55-60 point season to even be considered for a Norris, it is what it is.
Doughty has to score another 55-60 point season to even be considered for a Norris, it is what it is.
I dont want to get too into it because my last two warnings came from arguing with Sens fans about Karlsson, but he isnt the dman that Doughty is. I dont care if DD ever wins the Norris because its a joke of an award anyway and cups are more important. he will be in the hall of fame either way
cyclones22
Registered User
Hey, remember that super important play that EK made that one time in a game that mattered? No? Me either. I remember in 2012 when Sens fans were making it out that EK had the most dominant 1 point in a 7 game first round playoff series loss performance EVER. I had to laugh at that, but holy crap it was obnoxious. Meanwhile, Doughty puts in a Smythe worthy performance (the first of two) in that same playoff year. Hell, at least Subban shows up in the playoffs. He's a difference maker at least, whereas having EK on your team come playoff team makes absolutely zero difference to date.
Raccoon Jesus
We were right there
I remember that, because I remember saying "wait, so you're agreeing that points aren't everything?" WHich killed the conversation
WTFMAN99
Registered User
- Jun 17, 2009
- 34,546
- 12,712
Hi guys, Leafs fan but I like Drew quite a bit. I have admittedly not gotten to see him much in the last while. Yes I understand that defense is a 200 ft game, but his stat line in terms of points isn't as high as I would think given his crazy talent. I don't think he'll get to put up the numbers that Subban or Karlsson will given the system and his use.
That being said guys like Weber are putting up more points. I guess I am just wondering why you think he is not producing as many points as his talent level suggests he should?
Thanks
That being said guys like Weber are putting up more points. I guess I am just wondering why you think he is not producing as many points as his talent level suggests he should?
Thanks
A.) He's really never played with a D partner that generates offense for him. Closest would be Muzzin. But weber for example has been able to play with Sutter and Josi.
B.) He has a big slap shot but he's not great with one timers like most of the dmen scoring a lot from the blue line. Also he doesn't get a lot of wristers through. Tends to try to wind up for slap shots and they often get blocked. Basically he has a good shot but not on the level of Subban, Karlsson, Weber, etc...
C.) He obviously focuses on defense and is elite there. So you won't see him cheating hardly ever. Just plays the right way and generally has to carry his d partner on both ends of the ice.
Most of the real point getters have great 1t's on the pp and get a lot of points from that. It's just not his strength. But his puck skills, passing, skating, defense, hockey IQ, compete level, physicality combination is unmatched imo.
Little Psycho
Registered User
cyclones22
Registered User
It's definitely the system. Well, Weber has that monstrous slap shot which I'd bet is responsible for the majority of his points not only for goals, but assists too. He's not exactly a playmaker or puck carrier. And come playoff time when things get tighter, Weber gets neutered offensively. Hell, his biggest claim to fame is bashing Zetterberg's head against the glass. Quite the resume. Doughty's point shot basically sucks balls to put it kindly. Too big of a wind-up when he should just flick it at the net. If he took lesson's from Muzzin he'd probably up his point total by at least a handful.
WTFMAN99
Registered User
- Jun 17, 2009
- 34,546
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Thanks for your responses guys. Yeah Weber's slapshot is insane and even if it doesn't go in, most of the time it generates a rebound. Weber is definitely the exception and not the norm, the slap shot in general takes too long time wind up and in the NHL there is simply too much time now for guys to block lanes with sticks and bodies. The wrist/snap shot from the blueline is definitely the way to go.
A lot of guys on the Leafs boards rag on Rielly for not having a bomb of a slap shot but his shot from the point (usually a wrister) gets through traffic which is the most important thing.
So basically no surprise. Doughty isn't cheating offensively and Sutter's system doesn't cater to creating offense. Definitely agree that Muzzin would have been his most offensively gifted partner which says a lot...
Thanks again.
Raccoon Jesus
We were right there
I would add that despite Doughty's obvious gifts, he's nothing special on the PP, PLUS no one gives him room because of the aforementioned gifts. So little to no PP production year to year hurts his totals in addition to the Sutter system/team scoring.
I agree with the partner thing to some degree, but I think it can work different ways--if Muzzin were asked to play like Methot and just cover DOughty's ass while he does whatever the hell he wants, we'd see a different d-man...but that wouldn't help the team. SO, it is what it is.
I agree with the partner thing to some degree, but I think it can work different ways--if Muzzin were asked to play like Methot and just cover DOughty's ass while he does whatever the hell he wants, we'd see a different d-man...but that wouldn't help the team. SO, it is what it is.
