Niagara Icedogs 2024-25 Season, Part II

[Sam14]

3-2nd 5 or 6-3rds, 6-4ths is not a bad pick situation.

Is HORRIBLE! That does not represent a surplus. It is the only picks they have.
This team has been a last place team for 3 years, buying high and selling low for the majority of trades during that time. Of course, it’s not bad for a random, not for fans who actually attended games since 2007 and are invested in all aspects of our local team (including 1000s and 1000s of dollars). Your outside thoughts on this doesn’t resonate in any way with a fan base that want something better.

 

[Dogs Enthusiast]

Is HORRIBLE! That does not represent a surplus. It is the only picks they have.
This team has been a last place team for 3 years, buying high and selling low for the majority of trades during that time. Of course, it’s not bad for a random, not for fans who actually attended games since 2007 and are invested in all aspects of our local team (including 1000s and 1000s of dollars). Your outside thoughts on this doesn’t resonate in any way with a fan base that want something better.

Are you gonna buy playoff tickets?

 

[Sam14]

Are you gonna buy playoff tickets?

DE I will not support DD financially, but I can tell you acquiring tickets through other means to lend my usual vocal support of the players (except on Sunday) has not been a problem to this point. So, getting tickets for those two home games without supporting DD won’t be that difficult for me.

NOTE: New owner. I would renew both my tickets tomorrow, even if I can get freebies!

Genuinely curious on your thought regarding draft capital. How exactly will the IceDogs recoup draft picks, this year and/or next year?

 

[Dogs Enthusiast]

More concerned about this year than 3 seasons from now. Like I said earlier. Picks are fluid and I stopped caring much about it.

 

[Sam14]

More concerned about this year than 3 seasons from now. Like I said earlier. Picks are fluid and I stopped caring much about it.

I didn’t mean if you were concerned, but rather how would you go about recouping picks for this year or next year?

For this year they need to acquire at least a 2nd for the 2025 draft

 

[Dogs Enthusiast]

We don’t “need” to acquire. We would survive without it.

 

[Sam14]

We don’t “need” to acquire. We would survive without it.

Darren?

We could survive without 2nd round pick Kevin He?

 

[Dogs Enthusiast]

You are so focused/conditioned/invested to find something wrong that you are missing out on an excellent team. Off to the hottest start since the team came to town.

 

[Sam14]

You are so focused/conditioned/invested to find something wrong that you are missing out on an excellent team. Off to the hottest start since the team came to town.

You don’t need to worry because this will NEVER happen under DD’s watch (including moving He next year), but here is one idea.

First, no one is suggesting a complete tank. The IceDogs are going to finish, most likely 7th or 6th and a first round exit with or without, let’s say Virgilio and NVV as an example. Nothing changes in that sense.

However, if the IceDogs can re-acquire those picks lost in a couple of those trades (e.g, Virgilio NVV. 2,3,3,4,4,5), to add to the picks they have, it would begin to give the IceDogs a bit of a surplus and would be a good start to trying to move this franchise forward.

With those picks now in hand, along with all the high picks they will get for Kevin He next season (e.g., 2,2,2,3,3,3,4,4), gives them the draft capital required to realistically move towards a Mem-Cup bid calibre team that DD has hopes for but not planned for.

Kitchener is an example of a team currently planning for that bid. If IceDogs are serious about the Mem-Cup and a championship team, it needs to this year.

 

[dirty12]

You don’t need to worry because this will NEVER happen under DD’s watch (including moving He next year), but here is one idea.

First, no one is suggesting a complete tank. The IceDogs are going to finish, most likely 7th or 6th and a first round exit with or without, let’s say Virgilio and NVV as an example. Nothing changes in that sense.

However, if the IceDogs can re-acquire those picks lost in a couple of those trades (e.g, Virgilio NVV. 2,3,3,4,4,5), to add to the picks they have, it would begin to give the IceDogs a bit of a surplus and would be a good start to trying to move this franchise forward.

With those picks now in hand, along with all the high picks they will get for Kevin He next season (e.g., 2,2,2,3,3,3,4,4), gives them the draft capital required to realistically move towards a Mem-Cup bid calibre team that DD has hopes for but not planned for.

Kitchener is an example of a team currently planning for that bid. If IceDogs are serious about the Mem-Cup and a championship team, it needs to this year.

The suggestion of trading Virgilio prior to his age 19-20 seasons seems really dumb.

 

[Sam14]

The suggestion of trading Virgilio prior to his age 19-20 seasons seems really dumb.

Do I need to remind that you have not been to a single IceDog game at the MC in 6 or 7 years.

You called out scout4life to “Heed your own advice from a different thread to get off the internet to watch games of teams you are going to critique.”

 

[Dog Fan]

You don’t need to worry because this will NEVER happen under DD’s watch (including moving He next year), but here is one idea.

First, no one is suggesting a complete tank. The IceDogs are going to finish, most likely 7th or 6th and a first round exit with or without, let’s say Virgilio and NVV as an example. Nothing changes in that sense.

However, if the IceDogs can re-acquire those picks lost in a couple of those trades (e.g, Virgilio NVV. 2,3,3,4,4,5), to add to the picks they have, it would begin to give the IceDogs a bit of a surplus and would be a good start to trying to move this franchise forward.

With those picks now in hand, along with all the high picks they will get for Kevin He next season (e.g., 2,2,2,3,3,3,4,4), gives them the draft capital required to realistically move towards a Mem-Cup bid calibre team that DD has hopes for but not planned for.

Kitchener is an example of a team currently planning for that bid. If IceDogs are serious about the Mem-Cup and a championship team, it needs to this year.

I agree with your theory of the case but trading two d-men for picks with only Dewachter and Frasca to sub in is a really big risk with half a season to go. Any injuries on the defensive end or our offensive group (He Roobroeck)and you miss the playoffs

 

[Sam14]

I agree with your theory of the case but trading two d-men for picks with only Dewachter and Frasca to sub in is a really big risk with half a season to go. Any injuries on the defensive end or our offensive group (He Roobroeck)and you miss the playoffs

My thought would have been to sign Derek Smyth, let Frasca develop with a regular shift and pocket those picks.
Its never happening but it is an idea towards as long term Mem-cup plan that we don’t have. Oh well

 

[knowescape]

I stopped getting stressed about the pick cupboard a few years back. Picks are a very fluid currency in this league.

Remember what DD said at the very beginning of his ownership? His goal was to make Niagara a contender every year like London (paraphrasing here). For good or bad. I think that is what he is trying to do here. Make us a preferred destination for the best prospects in the league.

DDD wasn't worried about the pick cupboard either. I'm hoping someone sits him down and (bravely) explains the economics of this currency to him (and maybe you too). Currently, he is using his Visa card to pay his MasterCard bill.

As for Niagara trying to emulate London, so far DDD has done the opposite in just about every category.

 

[knowescape]

More concerned about this year than 3 seasons from now. Like I said earlier. Picks are fluid and I stopped caring much about it.

And that there's yer problem.

OHL hockey is a five-year cycle and you need a plan that covers the high and low points within that period. The plan has to be multi-year and encompassing trades, picks, and even homegrown player development. If all you're doing is chasing the prize this year, you'll never catch the leaders and you'll spend a lot of time in the basement.

You stopped caring about one of the three key components of managing a team to victory? Then you should probably just focus on the games, maybe the uniforms, or the mascot. You have my vote for season ticket holder of the game even, but please don't be disappointed if this is the best the IceDogs ever do under DDD.

 

[Dogs Enthusiast]

And that there's yer problem.

OHL hockey is a five-year cycle and you need a plan that covers the high and low points within that period. The plan has to be multi-year and encompassing trades, picks, and even homegrown player development. If all you're doing is chasing the prize this year, you'll never catch the leaders and you'll spend a lot of time in the basement.

You stopped caring about one of the three key components of managing a team to victory? Then you should probably just focus on the games, maybe the uniforms, or the mascot. You have my vote for season ticket holder of the game even, but please don't be disappointed if this is the best the IceDogs ever do under DDD.

I stopped caring so much about picks because it seems to always be easy to get them back. Somebody will want out for whatever reason, some team will be desperate for a mid-level player because somebody is injured or left their team. I am sure you can come up with your own scenarios where we suddenly end up with a handful of picks because it happens every damn season.

Relax. Enjoy the ride.

 

[Sam14]

I stopped caring so much about picks because it seems to always be easy to get them back. Somebody will want out for whatever reason, some team will be desperate for a mid-level player because somebody is injured or left their team. I am sure you can come up with your own scenarios where we suddenly end up with a handful of picks because it happens every damn season.

Relax. Enjoy the ride.

If you remove the IceDogs overpaying for mid-level player and take a look at the calibre of players required to recoup multiple high draft picks by other teams, you will see this will be a difficult task without trading their top players. Kevin He doesn’t need to be moved until next year

That is the reality of the situation DD has put them in. You don’t have to accept or acknowledge it but it’s just the truth.

The process of recouping picks for 26-27 (but remain in playoff contention) should begin now in a year they are not going to win. Slowly begin to move out players not in the team’s plans for that year. You will see (and seen) teams like NB, Ottawa and the Petes doing exactly that.

Media Notes - Ontario Hockey League

SUSPENSIONS: The following list of suspensions is for information purposes only. It should not be construed as necessarily a complete listing of all suspensions. TEAM PLAYER DATE DISCIPLINE RETURN SBY Chase Coughlan Nov. 10 2 games Nov. 22 BAR Cole Dubowsky Nov. 9 2 games Nov. 16 BAR Evan...

chl.ca

 

[dirty12]

If you remove the IceDogs overpaying for mid-level player and take a look at the calibre of players required to recoup multiple high draft picks by other teams, you will see this will be a difficult task without trading their top players. Kevin He doesn’t need to be moved until next year

That is the reality of the situation DD has put them in. You don’t have to accept or acknowledge it but it’s just the truth.

The process of recouping picks for 26-27 (but remain in playoff contention) should begin now in a year they are not going to win. Slowly begin to move out players not in the team’s plans for that year. You will see (and seen) teams like NB, Ottawa and the Petes doing exactly that.

Media Notes - Ontario Hockey League

SUSPENSIONS: The following list of suspensions is for information purposes only. It should not be construed as necessarily a complete listing of all suspensions. TEAM PLAYER DATE DISCIPLINE RETURN SBY Chase Coughlan Nov. 10 2 games Nov. 22 BAR Cole Dubowsky Nov. 9 2 games Nov. 16 BAR Evan...

chl.ca

You definitely could pass up the chance to see what a good relatively young team can accomplish this season and next to be among a half dozen teams building toward that specific year; and bid against Kitchener for the memorial cup.
Or, add another ‘06 forward and an import or domestic goalie between now and Jan. ‘26 to complement the core that is already winning at a good rate now. That way, K.He does not have to be moved at all.
If that does not look like it will work out, (then) sell He and other ‘06s.

 

[Sam14]

You definitely could pass up the chance to see what a good relatively young team can accomplish this season and next to be among a half dozen teams building toward that specific year; and bid against Kitchener for the memorial cup.
Or, add another ‘06 forward and an import or domestic goalie between now and Jan. ‘26 to complement the core that is already winning at a good rate now. That way, K.He does not have to be moved at all.
If that does not look like it will work out, (then) sell He and other ‘06s.

So basically the exact same (lack of) plan DD has used the last few years. Time to try something different.

 

[bigsportsfan]

I really don’t think DD plans things out long term. I think he just goes season to season, trying to build the best team possible each year. For that reason, I think we will be buyers this year and he will try to make a run for it now and worry about the future after this season.

 

[bigsportsfan]

I have been following the NCAA decision to allow CHL players to play in the NCAA pretty closely. Most agree that the top U.S. 16 year olds will likely consider coming to the CHL now but some players may leave at 18 or 19 for the NCAA. So OHL teams will need to make sure they look at US players when drafting or otherwise they won’t benefit from the new rules and will only suffer when they lose players to the NCAA earlier than expected.

DD has never drafted a US player, likely because of scholarship costs, lack of scouts (They only have 5 scouts) and I would assume agent Walters only represents Canadian players. (The IceDogs draft most of their players from kids that are represented by Walters)

Does DD pay up and start drafting US kids or does he ignore the new pool of US talent, putting the IceDogs at a disadvantage?

 

[Dogs Enthusiast]

IceDogs overpaying for mid-level player

According to you. When an OHL team hires you as a GM or a consultant you until then are just a fan like me.

Not trying to be rude but you are so biased against DD that it pains you to say when something good happened. Its all negative from you.

That being said, I am a homer for sure. I have my own bias. Things that happened in the last years years baffled me and pissed me off too. But you can't just dismiss what is happening now in the hopes that you are correct in 3 years time. So you can say "I told you so:".

I am 100% in on the team being good NOW. Because the attendance plummeted and that threatens the continued existence of the team playing in downtown St. Catharines. A decent playoff run will fix that and bring people back.

Also, I don't think its a coincidence that we got good after our coach was promoted and his father started advising the team. Do you agree with that?

(looking for common ground here)

 

[dirty12]

So basically the exact same (lack of) plan DD has used the last few years. Time to try something different.

Building around a relatively young and improving core would be very different than the past half dozen years; and it would be a great environment for developing players, help recruit new players, attract fans, lessen the noise of the negative, …all the things you hope not to happen for the owner of the IceDogs. It’s got to hurt your soul seeing the IceDogs with a 13-5 record and apparent franchise best start to a season.

 

[Sam14]

According to you. When an OHL team hires you as a GM or a consultant you until then are just a fan like me.

Since you quoted “IceDogs overpaying for mid-level player” I assume that is what you are referencing here.

Two things, first, you don’t need to be a GM to understand when a team has overpaid for a player. It is for the most part obvious and based on market value of similar players, who are properly scouted by the acquiring team. Secondly, if its only the opinion of GMs that you trust, not that I will ever post it on here but I have GM screen shots on my phone indicating that the IceDogs overpaid in those trades.

Not ignoring your other comments, I reply to that also.

 

[Sam14]

Building around a relatively young and improving core would be very different than the past half dozen years; and it would be a great environment for developing players, help recruit new players, attract fans, lessen the noise of the negative, …all the things you hope not to happen for the owner of the IceDogs. It’s got to hurt your soul seeing the IceDogs with a 13-5 record and apparent franchise best start to a season.

Nope. Same pattern as in the past. If you don’t know it, I’m not reposting it for you.