NHLPA Fehr wants to address issue of fighting

[Ugmo]

I said it before, if we are so concerned about pro hockey athletes then what about MMA, Boxing, kids taking karate, taekwondo, etc, etc... Again, I said it before, MMA and boxing people beat each others brains out yet we pay money to watch... And we are so concerned about a fight that lasts on average 30 seconds and maybe a knock out punch every dozen or so fights.

Because I enjoy and care about hockey, and couldn't care less about any of those other sports. And this being a hockey forum... well, you get the idea.

Two willing combatants should be allowed to go, period. They have accepted the risk of their sport.

The fighting makes the sport less enjoyable for me, personally, as a spectator. Maybe that doesn't apply to others, but it's true for me.

Get rid of the staged fights, the crap after every bloody whistle and I'd be more than happy with that.

Agreed... especially as I would guess that those who are most at risk of long-term health problems are those whose job it is to participate in the staged fights.

You remove fighting completely and you will see cheap shots rise, period.

Not sure how you can say this with certainty. You could significantly increase the penalties for cheap shots and they would decline.

 

[Killion]

The fighting makes the sport less enjoyable for me, personally, as a spectator. Maybe that doesn't apply to others, but it's true for me.

So, I guess your not a big fan of the LNAH huh?

Their are old school hardcore traditionalists who agree with this, and Im one of them. Up until maybe 15yrs or so ago like people who are pro-fighting, the very thought of its removal to me absolute heresy. Its not "just fighting" for me, its the whole deal, the way the games being played. Be it fists, a shoulder, an elbow or a stick or whatever to the head or up-high, its reckless hockey. Dirty.

Back in the day, like pre-Flyers, the majority of fights were basically wrestling matches. Sure you had some guys who could throw them & did, but it wasnt full on psycho (there were "incidents" of course, Maurice Richard, Howe/Fontinato, Carl Brewer being pummelled badly in the players bench etc) and more jawing at one another than fists flying. High hits, elbows etc dealt with by the players if a penalty wasnt called, or if it was, then whomever likely getting decked with a clean check later in that game or later that season. Not always immediate retaliation. Gordie Howe with his "take his number, take revenge later". And you can straighten out a miscreant legally... or behind the play when Ref's not lookin .

 

[KevFu]

I think we all can agree that:
-- Blows to the head can lead to some pretty negative implications for the recipients brain health, and bare knuckle blows to the head are worse than sports like MMA and Boxing, where the knuckles are padded.
-- Stick swinging incidents would be worse than a current NHL-style fist fight.
-- Fighting DOES have a place in the sport, because of the "policing the game" factor and to provide an outlet with a less severe penalty than swinging a stick.
-- Fighting requires two willing participants, where as dirty plays require one.

The NHL HAS legislated out bench-clearing brawls. The NHL CAN legislate out fighting, but needs to determine if a war on fighting is really a desirable goal.

There IS a code with NHL fights, and that code IS a good thing. Because retribution without a code would be more dangerous.

Let's take the Penguins/Islanders series as an example: Then Penguins were roughing up the Islanders with some really borderline play. Niskanen took a run at Matt Moulson, and Kyle Okposo (career fights entering that game: zero), decided he'd had enough and the Islanders weren't going to be pushed around anymore. So he dropped the gloves.

To me, that's the kind of fight that's totally acceptable in the sport of hockey. Niskanen is less likely to hit someone dangerously, because the last time he did Okposo busted his face, and Niskanen probably likes his face more when it's not bleeding.

Now, if Okposo is going to be automatically ejected and suspended for doing that, does he fight Niskanen? Probably not. Maybe Niskanen keeps elevating his borderline play and injures someone with a dirty hit; or maybe after watching Niskanen endanger the well being of Islanders a few more times, Okposo snaps and clubs Niskanen with his stick.


There needs to be a balancing act:
We want to limit the occurrence of fighting while seeing no increase in the amount of "worse than fighting" incidents.
We want to eradicate the "I'm the guy who gets punched in the head all season to fire up my teammates" fights while retaining the "This guy just cheap-shotted me/my teammate, so he needs to get punched" fights.

Should the NHL increase the penalty for fights that are not "policing the game" somehow, it would probably make things safer. I do not think that a full out war to try and eliminate fighting would make the game totally SAFER for anyone but the enforcers, who are watching on the couch without a job instead of taking blows to the head. The rest of the players would be in more danger our being the victim of a dirty play.


Harsher rules for blowout fights, "appointment" fights, a mandatory brain trauma checkup (and month-long IR list stay) after your fifth fight would probably make for a safer, healthier sport.

But you have to go about it with the understanding that there IS a reason fighting hasn't been a more severe penalty for the last 80 years.


(also, a worthwhile discussion of "addressing fighting" doesn't need a "anti-fighting vs pro-fighting" label. This is an issue, not a -ology.)

 

[PokeCheck101]

Not sure how you can say this with certainty. You could significantly increase the penalties for cheap shots and they would decline.

I completely disagree. There is so much garbage going on it's insane. For example how many times have we seen a goalie repeatedly hack a player in front of the net? I'm talking about full on chops to the bare back legs of a player. NO CALL. How about blatant, absolutely blatant, checking from behind. NO CALL. I've seen three already in the wings v hawks game tonight. It is so pandemic. When can we start talking about that? Thrusting players cowardly from behind 2-3 feet from the boards.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Well, if you keep it in there, accept that its "just part of the culture", then we should shrink the roster sizes eliminating room for designated hitmen. That would be helpful.

If I had my way, fourth lines and bottom pairings would disappear tomorrow. 18 skaters is too many.

Also rescind the Instigator Rule. Let the players police themselves and make it mandatory that edification in the pugilistic arts be included in every training camp at every professional & junior level of hockey by certified instructors, trainers & coaches. You cant fight or unwilling? Gone. Must have minimum threshold abilities, be able to defend, throw punches. On ice, dryland, gym & ring training. As its just a matter of time before someones grieving family sues & wins a major award having proven conclusively that repeated blows to the head, some or all attributable to fights and the teams/leagues are unable to secure insurance coverage thereafter, then you, the player, will be responsible for paying the premiums yourself. Tacitly accepting & understanding that not only are you expected to fight, take high head ringing "hits" that may result in life altering permanent damage and or prove fatal, then fine. Good to go. Just make a clean breast of it, bring out into the open. Yes, hockey's a bloodsport. You dont like it? Go play or watch tennis, golf, basketball, baseball.

I not sure why it would have to go to that extreme. Baseball players charge the mound all the time without anyone getting sued, or players having to go through Fight Camp.

I mean, take the number of fights in the game right now and subtract the enforcers. What's left?

 

[Canadiens1958]

Responsibility

The first step is recognizing responsibility.

The NHL recognizes that a player has to be responsible for the way he controls his stick. This level of responsibility should be extended to other player control elements - skates as in Cooke/Karlsson, arms/shoulders - Raffi Torres amongst many, knees - Edler/Staal, and so forth.

This responsibility should extend to coaches thru management and ownership. Definitely to the NHLPA.

 

[PokeCheck101]

I think we all can agree that:-- Blows to the head can lead to some pretty negative implications for the recipients brain health, and bare knuckle blows to the head are worse than sports like...

All very well put. I'll also add that the days of the "enforcer" have come and gone. Roster spots are too precious. You have to be able to play the game.

 

[Ugmo]

I completely disagree. There is so much garbage going on it's insane. For example how many times have we seen a goalie repeatedly hack a player in front of the net? I'm talking about full on chops to the bare back legs of a player. NO CALL. How about blatant, absolutely blatant, checking from behind. NO CALL. I've seen three already in the wings v hawks game tonight. It is so pandemic. When can we start talking about that? Thrusting players cowardly from behind 2-3 feet from the boards.

I don't see how we're disagreeing. My point is that kind of dirty play should be called, and the punishments should be more severe. It could be stamped out if the league wanted to. I don't see the relevance to fighting. You could completely ban fighting if you wanted to (i.e. impose the same kind of penalties the e.g. NFL would) and also crack down on dirty play in general.

 

[txpd]

I don't see any need to suspend players for a fight. This is hockey, after all. Fighting is part of the culture..

fighting is part of the canadian hockey culture. right? its not part of european or american culture.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Watching the Same Game

I completely disagree. There is so much garbage going on it's insane. For example how many times have we seen a goalie repeatedly hack a player in front of the net? I'm talking about full on chops to the bare back legs of a player. NO CALL. How about blatant, absolutely blatant, checking from behind. NO CALL. I've seen three already in the wings v hawks game tonight. It is so pandemic. When can we start talking about that? Thrusting players cowardly from behind 2-3 feet from the boards.

Watching the same game. Crease hangers tend to pad their calves but there is a bigger issue.

Players rarely use proper positional angles. Used to be that an angled arc would effectively avoid hits to the back. Likewise the angled screen - allowed more movement, better stick control for deflections plus the forward could engage a slashing goalie stick putting the goalie off balance.

 

[Kimota]

MOD

If I want to fight, that means I accept the responsablity that I may have a concussion. But that's my business.

And if the NHL are afraid to be sued then let the players sign a paper that says "I voluntarely fight regardless of the consequences".

 

[Kimota]

So, I guess your not a big fan of the LNAH huh?

Their are old school hardcore traditionalists who agree with this, and Im one of them. Up until maybe 15yrs or so ago like people who are pro-fighting, the very thought of its removal to me absolute heresy. Its not "just fighting" for me, its the whole deal, the way the games being played. Be it fists, a shoulder, an elbow or a stick or whatever to the head or up-high, its reckless hockey. Dirty.

Back in the day, like pre-Flyers, the majority of fights were basically wrestling matches. Sure you had some guys who could throw them & did, but it wasnt full on psycho (there were "incidents" of course, Maurice Richard, Howe/Fontinato, Carl Brewer being pummelled badly in the players bench etc) and more jawing at one another than fists flying. High hits, elbows etc dealt with by the players if a penalty wasnt called, or if it was, then whomever likely getting decked with a clean check later in that game or later that season. Not always immediate retaliation. Gordie Howe with his "take his number, take revenge later". And you can straighten out a miscreant legally... or behind the play when Ref's not lookin .

It's the other way around, fighting used to be a lot more FIGHTING than it is now. Now it's wrestling matchs. Back then it was clean fists to the face. Wrestling matchs happened when grabbing specialists like Chris Nilan came into the league. Now players are so skilled at avoided fists with their holding the jerseys. Watch the fights involving teams in the 70s. Those were fights. Watch Stan Johathan vs Pierre Bouchard.

 

[Killion]

fighting is part of the canadian hockey culture. right? its not part of european or american culture.

Quite correct.... but.... it did wind up being being exported from Canada & adopted as a norm in the early development of the game in the mid-west & northeastern US, though nowhere nearly to the extremes nor extent that it had become entrenched, as endemic as its been in Canada. Essentially frowned upon if not outright banned from Minnesota to New England at the amateur levels. In Europe, Russia, considered unsportsmanlike, Neanderthal.

 

[Killion]

It's the other way around, fighting used to be a lot more FIGHTING than it is now. Now it's wrestling matchs. Back then it was clean fists to the face. Wrestling matchs happened when grabbing specialists like Chris Nilan came into the league. Now players are so skilled at avoided fists with their holding the jerseys. Watch the fights involving teams in the 70s. Those were fights. Watch Stan Johathan vs Pierre Bouchard.

Ya, Im goin back pre-70's Kimota. Guys like Tim Horton, Bob Baun, Moose Vasko, your average or above average hockey player, guys would partner off, a lot of clutching, mouthing off, trash talk, fists thrown but not really connecting the way they did from the 70's on up when players actually worked on that "skill". Its not easy getting a lot of mustard into a punch on skates. Damaging enough pre-70's but not to the degree it developed through that decade & beyond. Honestly Im of 2 minds about it. Either rescind the Instigator Rule and let the players deal with one another properly in punching the lights out of some idiot who's running riot, hitting high, using his stick in the worst imaginable way or whatever, or alternatively, ban fighting altogether. Its complicated, complex, and requires serious aforethought, study. Whats clear is that brain damage is occurring as a result of combined hitting & fighting, the manner in which the games played, just the general recklessness, lack of respect. Systemic from amateur on up.

 

[Sun God Nika]

MOD
Fighting is awesome it fuels the crowd and allows players to get their aggression out.

 

[PokeCheck101]

MOD

If I want to fight, that means I accept the responsablity that I may have a concussion. But that's my business.

And if the NHL are afraid to be sued then let the players sign a paper that says "I voluntarely fight regardless of the consequences".

If the NHL is worried about being sued what's next? Bantam parents suing their minor hockey associations because their son got a concussion? You are right on when you say it should be up to the players.

 

[Kimota]

Ya, Im goin back pre-70's Kimota. Guys like Tim Horton, Bob Baun, Moose Vasko, your average or above average hockey player, guys would partner off, a lot of clutching, mouthing off, trash talk, fists thrown but not really connecting the way they did from the 70's on up when players actually worked on that "skill". Its not easy getting a lot of mustard into a punch on skates. Damaging enough pre-70's but not to the degree it developed through that decade & beyond. Honestly Im of 2 minds about it. Either rescind the Instigator Rule and let the players deal with one another properly in punching the lights out of some idiot who's running riot, hitting high, using his stick in the worst imaginable way or whatever, or alternatively, ban fighting altogether. Its complicated, complex, and requires serious aforethought, study. Whats clear is that brain damage is occurring as a result of combined hitting & fighting, the manner in which the games played, just the general recklessness, lack of respect. Systemic from amateur on up.

The Rocket was from a poor neighboorhood, he would fight all the time, there was no clutching and grabbing in the street. Let me tell you these guys were tough and when they fought on the ice those were real fights. Guys nowadays are afraid to get hit in the face.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Ahuntsic

The Rocket was from a poor neighboorhood, he would fight all the time, there was no clutching and grabbing in the street. Let me tell you these guys were tough and when they fought on the ice those were real fights. Guys nowadays are afraid to get hit in the face.

Ahuntsic was not poor like the downtown residential core that was demolished as part of Montreal's urban renewal,starting in the mid 1950s - see Dozois plan, thru the early 1970s. Ahuntsic actually had outdoor rinks where kids could play hockey. Also the district had three of the leading 1930s Montreal island amateur boxing organizations within the community centers offering hockey. Maurice Richard boxed a bit. Also Henri Richard - check the boxing and hockey history of Palestre Nationale where Henri played junior.

Palestre Nationale had a modern boxing gym at the Paul Sauve Arena - opened 1960. Their MMJHL team played out of the arena and trained there.

 

[Killion]

The Rocket was from a poor neighboorhood, he would fight all the time, there was no clutching and grabbing in the street. Let me tell you these guys were tough and when they fought on the ice those were real fights. Guys nowadays are afraid to get hit in the face.

Ya, Maurice (and Henri though very very rarely) certainly knew how to both protect himself & throw a punch because....

...the district had three of the leading 1930s Montreal island amateur boxing organizations within the community centers offering hockey. Maurice Richard boxed a bit. Also Henri Richard....

Maurice Richard had a long fuse but once lit, look out. Now, no doubt Kimota he probably got into scraps as a kid on the playgrounds or wherever as most boys do, but he'd obviously learned the fundamentals of Boxing. He wasnt some wild swingin bar room brawler like the guys who played through the 70's on up in most cases.