NHLPA Fehr wants to address issue of fighting

[Canadiens1958]

Consider

You suffer more head trauma from body checks than you do with a few punches that hit you in the head. If you have football players having the same issue as hockey players and there is no fighting in football then shouldn't the logic be surrounded around hits.

Consider the following boxing data:

http://ejmas.com/jcs/jcsart_svinth_a_0700.htm

NHL or high level pro hockey history shows two bodycheck related deaths - Bill Masterton and Ed Kea.

Boxing trains fighters to protect themselves before anything else yet death and head trauma are common.

Fighting in football? Recent rules mandate keeping the helmet on at all times on the field. Football fights are a series of undisciplined swings with helmets on. Hockey headwear tends to be removed in a fight.

Hockey fights are rather primitive. Today's players have little or no fighting background. Evander Kane and Milan Lucic boxed. Kane's father is a trainer, believe he owns a Vancouver gym.

Without proper training you can expect a number of disasters. The data as posted by Fugu and others supports this.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Because you're not apart of the NHL or NHLPA. As a fan you either accept or don't accept and move on. You're not entitled to change the league and the players means to make a living. If you were in the players association, then you'd have a say.

We have every right to discuss our opinions, whether they be for or against fighting, on this forum. We don't have to "accept or not accept and move on", just because you say so.

Beyond the discussion here, we have a right to take action outside of internet arguments, be it economic decisions, communication with the NHL, or active protest, either for or against fighting. If that adds up in some way to a change in policy -- then yes, we are in fact able to influence the league. NHL fans are not subjects of the league.

 

[mygameworn]

Consider the following boxing data:

http://ejmas.com/jcs/jcsart_svinth_a_0700.htm

NHL or high level pro hockey history shows two bodycheck related deaths - Bill Masterton and Ed Kea.

Boxing trains fighters to protect themselves before anything else yet death and head trauma are common.

Fighting in football? Recent rules mandate keeping the helmet on at all times on the field. Football fights are a series of undisciplined swings with helmets on. Hockey headwear tends to be removed in a fight.

Hockey fights are rather primitive. Today's players have little or no fighting background. Evander Kane and Milan Lucic boxed. Kane's father is a trainer, believe he owns a Vancouver gym.

Without proper training you can expect a number of disasters. The data as posted by Fugu and others supports this.

The data in that link go back to the 1890's and the numbers drop as time goes on. The medical knowledge and treatment up until the 60's were hardly what they are today. Not that really means anything, a loss of life is still a loss of life. I'm not going to argue the numbers because we could go back and fourth all night.

Where is the information about players who've died as a direct result of a hockey fight? According to Wikipedia(not that I really trust it) only one player died of an on ice head injury from a fight.


What disasters have happened due to a fight? I can think of far more serious injuries due to questionable hits. My question is where is the out cry for the hits that result in serious injury from the anti-fighting bandwagon?

 

[mygameworn]

We have every right to discuss our opinions, whether they be for or against fighting, on this forum. We don't have to "accept or not accept and move on", just because you say so.

Beyond the discussion here, we have a right to take action outside of internet arguments, be it economic decisions, communication with the NHL, or active protest, either for or against fighting. If that adds up in some way to a change in policy -- then yes, we are in fact able to influence the league. NHL fans are not subjects of the league.

MOD
Make a business conform to appease you. I could think of a million other things to be worried about rather than fighting in the NHL. I think people take this way to personal. MOD

MOD

The fact that people are using Boogaard, Probert, Belak and Rypien's death to fuel their agenda is appalling. No one cares about player safety, only if it has to do with fighting.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Medical Advances

The data in that link go back to the 1890's and the numbers drop as time goes on. The medical knowledge and treatment up until the 60's were hardly what they are today. Not that really means anything, a loss of life is still a loss of life. I'm not going to argue the numbers because we could go back and fourth all night.

Where is the information about players who've died as a direct result of a hockey fight? According to Wikipedia(not that I really trust it) only one player died of an on ice head injury from a fight.


What disasters have happened due to a fight? I can think of far more serious injuries due to questionable hits. My question is where is the out cry for the hits that result in serious injury from the anti-fighting bandwagon?

You have recognized that medical knowledge has advanced since the 1890s. Issue that remains is applying this knowledge to the matter at hand in the context of hockey.

Be it a consequence of a fight or a questionable hit two questions remain about such injuries. Were they necessary? Are they preventable?

Who asks these questions does not matter. If a faction does not want such injuries prevented then a different issue has been identified and should be addressed at a proper time and place.

 

[Fugu]

The fact that people are using Boogaard, Probert, Belak and Rypien's death to fuel their agenda is appalling. No one cares about player safety, only if it has to do with fighting.

The agenda is what exactly? No one cares about player safety because they have opinions on fighting contrary to your own? Really?

 

[Killion]

Be it a consequence of a fight or a questionable hit two questions remain about such injuries. Were they necessary? Are they preventable?

Not to mention the entire issue of post career health issues & illnesses that are brought on prematurely as a result of multiple or even single concussive events, an area that only in the past decade or so has begun to be studied. Its really a rather insidious form of an injury to absorb, the results of which medical science is still trying to fully understand. Enough however is known, some beyond tragic & cautionary tales that to just blithely accept that fighting is a part of the game & culture & should be left standing is to ignore the evidence, the facts.

 

[Killion]

The fact that people are using Boogaard, Probert, Belak and Rypien's death to fuel their agenda is appalling. No one cares about player safety, only if it has to do with fighting.

Ya, see, this here statement, not helpful. No one here is morbidly propagandising their tragic & premature deaths, pointing fingers, feigning outrage. Whats appalling is that they all died so young, like John Kordic, like Brian Spencer & countless others over the years who all lead short & unhappy lives, in most cases making a living on the fringes of a sport they loved.

To further suggest that no one cares about "player safety", well, c'mon here mgw, get real. Hits to the head if delivered by a check, that'd be unsafe, just ask Crosby, Kariya, Lindros or any number of players about that. Repeated blows to the head, be it hits or punches, are you frikin kiddin me it isnt suicidal? Might not drop you then & there, but your going to have problems. Emotional & psychological followed by substance abuse in a tonne of cases & in all, medical health issues. I can guaran-eff'n-tee you are going to have problems. That is an absolute fact of life. Reggie Fleming was no Muhammad Ali, he wound even worse, and I guess you know what kinda shape Ali's been in for years huh? And you know what? It can take literally just one shot, one punch to the head to wind up the exact same way, never mind dozens upon hundreds. What game, what sport is worth that? If your a trained boxer, martial artist, ok, youve accepted the risk, your trained to defend first, governing bodies overseeing the sport, bouts like absolute hawks. Hockeys got nothing like that. In the dark ages. Your argument, the pro-fighting side, its indefensible.

I personally grew up & played during the most violent era in the games history & in the thick of it at the Junior level. I had no problem with fighting then. Wasnt until a decade or so later, the strange meanderings of some current & retired players, serious mental health & substance abuse issues, trouble with the Law, deaths, early onslaughts of Alzheimers & other diseases in 40yr old men that people went hey now, wonder whats going on here, seems to be a problem. A lot of it was written off that these guys were just having trouble adjusting to life after hockey. Quick cheap answer for a far more insidious & devastating a problem and one that was being suffered by a huge percentage of former players. For some, being punched & dying right then & there on the ice wouldve been preferable to the aftershock of brain damage, the behavioural difficulties & health issues such events wrought to their lives. So ya, damn straight Im concerned about player safety, as serious as cancer, and fighting isnt safe.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/03/sports/hockey/03fighter.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Do we really need more research to say that punches to the head over many years will lead to CTE? I know if it were my head, this would be sufficient evidence.

The same Bob Probert that battled serious drug problems, repeatedly crashed motor cycles and had all sorts of problems? I mean I love Probie and he was a decent hockey player despite that quote, even if he was a prolific fighter, hate when he is only referred to as an enforcer. But hard to pin that all on him having fought a bunch. How do we know for certain that is from fight and not hitting, or some of his other off ice activities?

 

[Killion]

The same Bob Probert that battled serious drug problems, repeatedly crashed motor cycles and had all sorts of problems? I mean I love Probie and he was a decent hockey player despite that quote, even if he was a prolific fighter, hate when he is only referred to as an enforcer. But hard to pin that all on him having fought a bunch. How do we know for certain that is from fight and not hitting, or some of his other off ice activities?

We dont. But when its systemic, when its not just Probert, but literally tens of dozens more over several generations, are you willing to take that chance? How can you say with certainty that his drug & alcohol problems didnt actually stem initially from brain trauma, even if it was from falling off his tricycle at 3, then exacerbated as he fought his way to & through the NHL while also playing some excellent hockey? There is overwhelming evidence of a direct correlation between head trauma & substance abuse. When a pattern begins to emerge over the past 30yrs, is not prudent to stop, take a time out?

 

[ScottyBowman]

The same Bob Probert that battled serious drug problems, repeatedly crashed motor cycles and had all sorts of problems? I mean I love Probie and he was a decent hockey player despite that quote, even if he was a prolific fighter, hate when he is only referred to as an enforcer. But hard to pin that all on him having fought a bunch. How do we know for certain that is from fight and not hitting, or some of his other off ice activities?

Maybe you're right or maybe you're wrong but then their is Rypien, Belak, Boogard, etc... The league has always been run by mouth breathing neanderthals. I mean you could have literally killed someone a few years back and all you would have gotten was a $500 fine. Hockey is still viewed as a joke by people because of the staged fighting and who can blame them.

 

[Ugmo]

The same Bob Probert that battled serious drug problems, repeatedly crashed motor cycles and had all sorts of problems? I mean I love Probie and he was a decent hockey player despite that quote, even if he was a prolific fighter, hate when he is only referred to as an enforcer. But hard to pin that all on him having fought a bunch. How do we know for certain that is from fight and not hitting, or some of his other off ice activities?

Maybe all the drug problems were related to his role as a fighter.

I remember reading a Sports Illustrated article about this probably close to 20 years ago. The gist was that most of the enforcers had drug, alcohol and depression problems as a direct result of their job.

 

[Killion]

Maybe all the drug problems were related to his role as a fighter. I remember reading a Sports Illustrated article about this probably close to 20 years ago. The gist was that most of the enforcers had drug, alcohol and depression problems as a direct result of their job.

Oh ya, its been known about, been a big problem, studied, still not entirely understood. Numerous contributing factors of course, win at all costs pressures, only as good as your next shift, assist, goal, fight or whatever. A lot of guys, most of the enforcers playing scared. Fear that they'll embarrass themselves through play, lose a fight. Outwardly all the rest of us see is a guy being given a very wide berth, one with an attitude, last thing you'd ever imagine being that theres any insecurity existent yet exist it does. Thoroughbred race horses for example run fast because their scared, yet to look at them, massive, powerful, kill ya with one kick. What in Hell do they have to be scared of? Take.You.Out.... so that factor combined with repeated injury, perhaps developing a reliance upon & fondness for prescriptions, alcohol along with the brain trauma that for 110% guaranteed they'll have suffered, well, you've got yourself a big problem, as in first going off the rails with unacceptable behaviour that carrys on from a game to off the ice, into your private life, affecting friends, family etc. Hull with his domestic assaults, outward signs of degenerative brain disease appearing some 20yrs ago & steadily worsening. Guys like Brian Spinner Spencer & John Kordic engaged in beyond criminal activities, bizarre behaviour. You dont have to look very far to find all kinds of examples, and its not just fighters.

 

[JuJu Mobb]

They need to adress the delayed icing rule first and adopt the international rule. IMO.

 

[Killion]

They need to adress the delayed icing rule first and adopt the international rule. IMO.

They need to do that and a whole lot more, like admit moving the goal line & nets out by 3' under Brian Burke was a colossal mistake. That there was only one Gretzky and you dont score a whole lot of goals from BEHIND the net. Like, duh.... resulting of course in leaving even less room between the blue-line & the net while clogging it up & turning it into a kill zone: get rid of the trapezoid: re-configure the goalie crease to its former rectangular, square dimensions: seriously consider re-insertion of the centre ice red line as in its removal sure its speeded up the game, dangerously, resulting in open ice hits in the neutral zone that are ending careers. Just on & on.

 

[mygameworn]

You have recognized that medical knowledge has advanced since the 1890s. Issue that remains is applying this knowledge to the matter at hand in the context of hockey.

Be it a consequence of a fight or a questionable hit two questions remain about such injuries. Were they necessary? Are they preventable?

Who asks these questions does not matter. If a faction does not want such injuries prevented then a different issue has been identified and should be addressed at a proper time and place.

Listen, I agree. Make the sport as safe as possible. But I can't stand hypocritical fans saying fighters don't belong and they shouldn't be allowed to play a sport they grew up playing and love, just because their primary role is to fight. Fans can't scream bloody murder because Orr and McGrattan fought at center ice, when Gryba made a great hockey play on Eller and that same anti-fighting bandwagon jumps out of their seat and applauds the open ice hit. I can name another 10 or so hits that were not necessary and were preventable.

The fans that don't like fighting because it has long term effects should also be screaming to remove hits from the game too. Why? because they happen to a larger number of players and occur more frequently than fights. I'm not singling you out either btw.

The agenda is what exactly? No one cares about player safety because they have opinions on fighting contrary to your own? Really?

The agenda is to single out "goons" and get fighting removed from the game, its obvious. Where is the concern for the rest of the players and their long term health? There are no debates or outcry to remove the dirty players from the league... Why is everyone ok with Chara riding Pacioretty's head into the stanchion? Why do fans cheer Neal on when he concussed TWO players in one game? Cooke, Neil, Kaleta, Torres, Marchand, Asham, Tootoo, Lucic, Ovie, Orpik, Clutterbuck, Schenn, I could name another dozen. All I hear is its unfortunate that a player gets hurt from a hit, but it's ok because it was a clean hit. Hey Eller, keep your head up next time, right? How many anti-fighting fans are feed up with hits that injure players? No, you can't touch hitting because its a part of the game and if you took hitting out then the game, then the game would suck... But the main reason for wanting fighting out is for the players long term health, right?

Ya, see, this here statement, not helpful. No one here is morbidly propagandising their tragic & premature deaths, pointing fingers, feigning outrage. Whats appalling is that they all died so young, like John Kordic, like Brian Spencer & countless others over the years who all lead short & unhappy lives, in most cases making a living on the fringes of a sport they loved.

To further suggest that no one cares about "player safety", well, c'mon here mgw, get real. Hits to the head if delivered by a check, that'd be unsafe, just ask Crosby, Kariya, Lindros or any number of players about that. Repeated blows to the head, be it hits or punches, are you frikin kiddin me it isnt suicidal? Might not drop you then & there, but your going to have problems. Emotional & psychological followed by substance abuse in a tonne of cases & in all, medical health issues. I can guaran-eff'n-tee you are going to have problems. That is an absolute fact of life. Reggie Fleming was no Muhammad Ali, he wound even worse, and I guess you know what kinda shape Ali's been in for years huh? And you know what? It can take literally just one shot, one punch to the head to wind up the exact same way, never mind dozens upon hundreds. What game, what sport is worth that? If your a trained boxer, martial artist, ok, youve accepted the risk, your trained to defend first, governing bodies overseeing the sport, bouts like absolute hawks. Hockeys got nothing like that. In the dark ages. Your argument, the pro-fighting side, its indefensible.

I personally grew up & played during the most violent era in the games history & in the thick of it at the Junior level. I had no problem with fighting then. Wasnt until a decade or so later, the strange meanderings of some current & retired players, serious mental health & substance abuse issues, trouble with the Law, deaths, early onslaughts of Alzheimers & other diseases in 40yr old men that people went hey now, wonder whats going on here, seems to be a problem. A lot of it was written off that these guys were just having trouble adjusting to life after hockey. Quick cheap answer for a far more insidious & devastating a problem and one that was being suffered by a huge percentage of former players. For some, being punched & dying right then & there on the ice wouldve been preferable to the aftershock of brain damage, the behavioural difficulties & health issues such events wrought to their lives. So ya, damn straight Im concerned about player safety, as serious as cancer, and fighting isnt safe.

You've been the only one to bring everything up as a whole. I'm with you. I disagree with people who single out the fighting role as the cancer of the game. If the anti-fighting movement wants to be taken seriously, they need to lump EVERYTHING in. Change the gear, modify the rules and enforce the dirty hits, even if they are deemed a "hockey play". You want to suspend a player for fighting? Suspend a player for hitting from behind or leaving his feet or getting ANY part of the head even if it isn't the principal point of contact.

 

[Hot Water Bottle]

How about eliminating all hits to the head in any situation (either fighting or hockey plays), under penalty of suspension. Keep all other rules the same.

So players can still fight all they want, but they have to use body blows only!!!

 

[Fugu]

The fans that don't like fighting because it has long term effects should also be screaming to remove hits from the game too. Why? because they happen to a larger number of players and occur more frequently than fights. I'm not singling you out either btw.

I think the focus is on concussions and all the things that cause them. Fighting happens to be on that list, while 'checking' in general has not been identified as a pervasive problem. If it were, you'd see older NHL'ers mirroring NFL'ers disease rates (which they are not). The exception is specifically to players who suffered egregious hits that produced identifiable concussive incidents (e.g., Bergeron, Lindros, Primeau).

 

[Ugmo]

The fans that don't like fighting because it has long term effects should also be screaming to remove hits from the game too. Why? because they happen to a larger number of players and occur more frequently than fights. I'm not singling you out either btw.

This thread is about fighting. Start one about dirty hits and we can scream about that in the appropriate thread.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Reading this thread you'd think that hits to the head hasn't been the single biggest focus of disciplinary action and fan outrage over the past half-decade.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Distinctions

Listen, I agree. Make the sport as safe as possible. But I can't stand hypocritical fans saying fighters don't belong and they shouldn't be allowed to play a sport they grew up playing and love, just because their primary role is to fight. Fans can't scream bloody murder because Orr and McGrattan fought at center ice, when Gryba made a great hockey play on Eller and that same anti-fighting bandwagon jumps out of their seat and applauds the open ice hit. I can name another 10 or so hits that were not necessary and were preventable.

The fans that don't like fighting because it has long term effects should also be screaming to remove hits from the game too. Why? because they happen to a larger number of players and occur more frequently than fights. I'm not singling you out either btw.

If a player can earn an NHL spot based on his hockey skills and still fight if necessary - Iginla, Larry Robinson, Gordie Howe as a few examples then there are no issues since the pace of the game does not slow down when such players are on the ice. Orr and McGrattan types slow the pace of the game the minute they are on the ice. Their skating alone should preclude them from the NHL. Such players lack the overall NHL skills to contribute beyond fighting.

Introduce bodychecking instead of hitting. Bodychecking features solid contact with additional skills of striping the puck carrier of the puck and transitioning into an odd man advantage rush. This creates offence.

Eric Gryba simply does not have such bodychecking skills. His hits are not bodychecks or hockey plays. Football on skates would be an apt description.

 

[Killion]

You've been the only one to bring everything up as a whole. I'm with you. I disagree with people who single out the fighting role as the cancer of the game. If the anti-fighting movement wants to be taken seriously, they need to lump EVERYTHING in. Change the gear, modify the rules and enforce the dirty hits, even if they are deemed a "hockey play". You want to suspend a player for fighting? Suspend a player for hitting from behind or leaving his feet or getting ANY part of the head even if it isn't the principal point of contact.

Well, I think part of the problem is that the pro-fighting advocates seem to have a problem articulating their side of the argument, and for the anti-fighting proponents guys like Don Cherry & others make for easy targets. Whats crystal clear, to me at least, is that its just not fighting thats the problem here, goes back to what I, Canadiens58 & others have stated, that theirs just a lack of respect amongst the last few generations of players that with the increased speed & evolution of the style of the game, conditioning & equipment advances, rule changes, re-configuration of the goal-line, removal of the centre ice-red-line, the way the games taught, coached etc etc etc, mistakes have been made. Id be taking a time-out, returning to yesterday, turning back the clock & re-setting the cycle, the wheel. Rescinding & removing no-hitting below Bantam. Removing the full cage requirements, banning them. Long list really.

Fighting happens to be on that list, while 'checking' in general has not been identified as a pervasive problem.

Well, "checking" actually is a problem Foogs. Back in the day the art of checking was simply to strip the opposing player of the puck using minimal force. Economy of movement & effort, using angles to direct them into the boards, or perhaps just simply standing them up on a rush, maybe a hip check, the dirtiest being a "Dip Check", going down low, aiming for the knee's but not knee on knee, using you back, sides, flip the guy ass over tea kettle. Round about 72'ish the whole paradigm swung, whereby players were no longer taught to simply strip the opposing player of the puck, but to "finish the check", and that meant that even after release of the puck you were expected to drive the guy into next week. This of course has become the norm, as witness any game whereby late hits, post release, guy gets absolutely smoked. Again, back in the day, you pulled that, youd immediately get the tar beaten out of you for so callously crossing the line, if not by a potentially injured opponent but by the nearest team mate, large or small, who would seek retribution for your stupidity in breaking The Code, and youd be paying a price, branded an idiot by not only the opposition but so too your own team mates. It simply wasnt done, it was/is dirty hockey.

This thread is about fighting. Start one about dirty hits and we can scream about that in the appropriate thread.

Well, its all part n' parcel of the same Ugmo. Inseparable. Be it fists or hits, how you deliver either or.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Hockey Related Contact

I think the focus is on concussions and all the things that cause them. Fighting happens to be on that list, while 'checking' in general has not been identified as a pervasive problem. If it were, you'd see older NHL'ers mirroring NFL'ers disease rates (which they are not). The exception is specifically to players who suffered egregious hits that produced identifiable concussive incidents (e.g., Bergeron, Lindros, Primeau).

The bolded is interesting. From the 40s and 50s hockey players that suffered contact related skull fractures - Elmer Lach, Gordie Howe, Scotty Bowman, Charlie Burns to name a few have not shown such concussion related symptoms. Conversely Reggie Fleming, a fighter, did. Small sampling but a direction for further research.

 

[Killion]

The bolded is interesting. From the 40s and 50s hockey players that suffered contact related skull fractures - Elmer Lach, Gordie Howe, Scotty Bowman, Charlie Burns to name a few have not shown such concussion related symptoms. Conversely Reggie Fleming, a fighter, did. Small sampling but a direction for further research.

Yes well this is what the pro-fighting proponents will point to, that guys like Howe, Vasko or whomever never seemed to suffer any immediate nor lingering long term effects from playing without a helmet, receiving innumerable blows to the head be it against the glass, ice, boards or at the end of someones fist, elbow or shoulder. But heres the thing; we, namely the older generations, "learned how to take & give a check". How to absorb it, deal with it coming or going.

Now, subtle difference here, theres a BIG difference between CHECKING & HITTING. What weve seen since at least 1980 with the majority of NHL players is an ability to HIT, not CHECK. Fighting back in the day was more grappling, wrestling than throwing left hooks & haymakers, flurrys. Even designated Hitmen of the era understanding that much, besides which, near-on impossible to get serious mustard behind a punch on skates unless you work on it, an Evil thing to even be contemplating at one time. Reggie Fleming a particularly interesting case & situation, as he was a "dirty player", The Code demanding retribution for his transgressions, and for which he paid the ultimate price, his life, albeit years after he'd retired. Head hits whatever, even once, can be fatal. Maybe not then & there, but how about loss of quality of life post retirement? Its quantifiable, its expensive (insurance,medical, pensions, legal etc) and very much a business as much as a matter of how hockey is taught, coached, played, ingrained into and transcending the very culture of the sport itself.

 

[mygameworn]

This thread is about fighting. Start one about dirty hits and we can scream about that in the appropriate thread.

Reading this thread you'd think that hits to the head hasn't been the single biggest focus of disciplinary action and fan outrage over the past half-decade.

I've brought up valid points and this is the response? See, this is my point. Ignore it all you want, hitting is more of a risk than fights. I'm not talking about the suspend-able hits either. I'm talking about every single hit. Every hit can and most likely does cause some sort of damage to the brain.