NHL should be the first to 4k

[Lacaar]

having a competent powerful device that I can control how I see fit is a problem ? I have one line in (coax) going to one box ( a HTPC) connected to my LED via hdmi. How is that complicated, you think that these new fangled TV's are going to have cable cards in them ? you think you are going to plug the coax in directly to the TV ?

my setup is no different or more difficult than coax-stb-tv. The WAF is slightly less than the STB it replaced. The difference is that I'm not relying one some gussied up marvell processor or at best a crippled atom to do any of the processing.

and in my system, if I dont like the front end, I can switch it. If your panasonic TV doesnt support plex from an app that might, or might not, ever get updated via firmware, you are hosed.

there is no doubt most if not all HTPC's are more capable than ANY smart tv alone, and it's not cobbled together with duct tape and wire. why anyone would be happy with crippled manufacturer specifc apps is beyond me.

Are you trying to convince me that everyone should get an HTPC for everyone of their 4k t.v's to ensure the viability of the product they purchased?

I'm saying Joe shmoe isn't going to do it.

I'm going to tell Joe Shmoe to be careful when getting that 4k t.v and IMO spend that cash on a 1080p. Or wait a bit longer until things become more clear.

Joe Shmoe is still mad his antenna is gone.

You pitch your htpc plan to the NHL and get them to get back you. Good luck.

 

[Drury_Sakic]

Who is funding these apps for every brand of 4k tv's OS?
You'll need probably 5 versions of this app written and supported throughout it's lifetime.

The NHL app is on a ton of different platforms from phones to tvs to game consoles. I think they can handle it, not to mention NBC has its own apps on dozens of devices. So you devote some money into getting 5-10 versions of the app up and running over the next 6-7 months --- plus TV companies would love to get more content so I imagine they would be more than willing to help make it easy. Samsung, LG, Sony, you start there, then move on to the others.

USB stick to run an app? that's a storage device.. it doesn't run anything.
You can put in an intermediate device.. which is exactly the problem with the state of 4k tv as is.

The device would be through HDMI for most I suppose, but a separate device has not stopped apple, amazon, google, roku, and many others from making affordable quality hardware. So you partner with one or two of those companies off the bat to get a 4k version of that tech to the market. Other apps would certainly like to piggy back with it such as Netflix, Amazon, and Youtube, not to mention google play and other VOD services that will start coming around to 4k sooner than later.

Have you ever heard of the Netflix Open Connect appliances?
They literally give ISP's hardware to serve Netflix content to relieve bandwidth issues between ISP's.

Which is why I suggested partnering with netflix, youtube, or amazon to make it happen. They have the connections to the major providers to get the ball rolling.

Bandwidth is definitely a real problem.

Only if cable/isp providers want it to be one. Cable companies are looking for things to keep people from cutting the cord, 4k is going to be one of those things. Not everyone will get it right away, just like HD and high speed internet....but there is a benefit from being their first as a content provider.




Also, I was not looking at super cheap 4k TVs....and frankly there are not all that many on the market even.... but the Smart TV power that is coming in a majority of 4k TVs is more than equipped to handle it. I played around with several in the stores when I was buying and the quality has come a long way in the last year or so. Smart TV apps used to SUCK, both because of bad design and cheap processors....but the decent quality TVs now are coming with good to great level software and much more powerful hardware...cause, uh, yeah, unless it is a super cheap model, they want them to be able to run 4k content. Netflix 4k, Amazon 4k, and youtube 4k all run super smooth on my TV, and I bought middle tier.

 

[Bizz]

4k will become the broadcast standard, but not for at least another 5-6 years.

the NHL was one of the first sports to be broadcasted live in 1080i HD (remember HDnet?)

 

[sandysan]

Are you trying to convince me that everyone should get an HTPC for everyone of their 4k t.v's to ensure the viability of the product they purchased?

I'm saying Joe shmoe isn't going to do it.

I'm going to tell Joe Shmoe to be careful when getting that 4k t.v and IMO spend that cash on a 1080p. Or wait a bit longer until things become more clear.

Joe Shmoe is still mad his antenna is gone.

You pitch your htpc plan to the NHL and get them to get back you. Good luck.

It for sn't have to be a HTPC, it can be a chrome cast, an apple TV, a tough or ps3 t that Joe schmo doesn't seem to have problems plugging in, now.

Because you are right asking anyone to put one device, of their choosing in the signal path between the network and the display is just too onerous. I'm amazed that 99% of cable customers who use stb or dvrs now how can they keep that one wire straight?

 

[scotchex]

Standards aren't the problem, bandwidth.
And, yeah, it will be many years before cable/satcaster have the bandwidth for 4K.

Still 4K is being steadily adopted. And the big live sports events will soon be broadcast in 4K -- for some definition of broadcast and mostly as a stunt. The World Cups and Super Bowls and Olympics at first, and down the line to other premiere events.

Of course, some say 8K is much better. (The UltraHD standard actually incorporates both 4K and 8K.)

 

[tsanuri]

Just to show where the bandwidth is the issue. At 1920X1080 you are at 2.1 megapixels going to 4K or 3084X2160 you are at 8.3 megapixels. So almost 4X the bandwidth is needed. And most cable and sat companies are compressing the crap out of shows to get them in the pipes they have.

 

[Lacaar]

It for sn't have to be a HTPC, it can be a chrome cast, an apple TV, a tough or ps3 t that Joe schmo doesn't seem to have problems plugging in, now.

Because you are right asking anyone to put one device, of their choosing in the signal path between the network and the display is just too onerous. I'm amazed that 99% of cable customers who use stb or dvrs now how can they keep that one wire straight?

Not a one of those devices can do what you say with a cable feed except a htpc.

So if my cable provider goes with a codec my t.v doesn't support.. it's htpc or bust for every one of my 4k tv's that don't support my cable companies codec of choice.

You're right back to the live broadcast delivered via app dream.
One that only Youtube does now and isn't even close to delivering 4k to mass market. they can't even do 1080p to mass market. And they sure as hell don't have NBC etc on board.

you'll need to get a cable box from your cable company that spits out the 4k codec your t.v is compatible with.

So I'll restate my opinion that buying a 4k t.v before they sort out this codec mess is potentially a risky gamble.

anybody can watch netflix, youtube, shomi, crave by dropping a ps3, wd live, etc in front of their t.v.

now get the live broadcast of your favorite t.v show via one of them (which would be awesome.. t.v a la carte) and I'm freaking on board.

 

[Hynh]

Hockey would benefit more from higher refresh rates over cable more than anything else. 60 fps+

I think this would really help with replays. 2.5 times as many frames will probably give you a better chance at seeing the puck over/on the line than 4 times as many pixels.

 

[Drury_Sakic]

anybody can watch netflix, youtube, shomi, crave by dropping a ps3, wd live, etc in front of their t.v.

now get the live broadcast of your favorite t.v show via one of them (which would be awesome.. t.v a la carte) and I'm freaking on board.

Already can, my xbox 360 lets me watch live fios TV for a few dozen channels.

HBO is launching an online/app exclusive version of its service soon as well.

 

[Fenway]

David Pogue looks at 4K today and offers advice

https://www.yahoo.com/tech/4k-tvs-tested-heres-what-to-buy-now-108838783644.html

 

[rgb63]

Nobody is broadcasting live 1080p right now and you guys are already proposing 4k...

 

[Fenway]

Nobody is broadcasting live 1080p right now and you guys are already proposing 4k...

NESN goes games in 1080p and has for several years but you need to be on a cable company that NESN sends a fiber optic feed to.

 

[rgb63]

NESN goes games in 1080p and has for several years but you need to be on a cable company that NESN sends a fiber optic feed to.

Do they? It's hard as heck to find any information about it.

 

[Drury_Sakic]

from the linked article,

• Cable. Mostly nothing, although all of the cable companies are working on it.

One notable exception is Comcast — if you have a Samsung 4K TV. Starting now, you can download the Xfinity in UHD app from the Samsung app store on your TV. It lets you watch full seasons of certain NBC and USA Network shows in 4K, on demand, for free. Comcast will offer a set-top box later this year that lets you do the same thing even if you don’t have a Samsung TV.

NBC is already leading the charge here.....

 

[sandysan]

Not a one of those devices can do what you say with a cable feed except a htpc.

So if my cable provider goes with a codec my t.v doesn't support.. it's htpc or bust for every one of my 4k tv's that don't support my cable companies codec of choice.

You're right back to the live broadcast delivered via app dream.
One that only Youtube does now and isn't even close to delivering 4k to mass market. they can't even do 1080p to mass market. And they sure as hell don't have NBC etc on board.

you'll need to get a cable box from your cable company that spits out the 4k codec your t.v is compatible with.

So I'll restate my opinion that buying a 4k t.v before they sort out this codec mess is potentially a risky gamble.

anybody can watch netflix, youtube, shomi, crave by dropping a ps3, wd live, etc in front of their t.v.

now get the live broadcast of your favorite t.v show via one of them (which would be awesome.. t.v a la carte) and I'm freaking on board.

Then you will love sling tv by dish
(no cable service required only hsi) or if you.are in the states get a SD hdhr prime and use your ps3 as a dlna client ( no guide but perfectly functional as client)

The rumored transcoding hdhr opens it up to all kinds of devices including all of the devices above, including apple tv


If you think it's way to much work to add a pc/tuner in the signal path, what do you think a stb is exactly? If you have to add an external tuner why does it have to be a stb and all of its inherent limitations?

 

[Hivemind]

No need. TV companies are going to do it, just like they did with HD, as the content is provided.

There are still plenty of areas in North America that don't have co-ax cable, and you think cable providers will simply instantly comply with fiber rollout because 4K content is provided? The United States is not like Nordic countries, Japan, or Korea. The government isn't stepping in to invest in broadband infrastructure. The incentive for cable providers to rollout fiber is far less than the demand for it, thus why Verizon stopped rolling out FiOS.

And I am already able to watch 4k content on my TV with the existing systems and I have about as low end of a Time Warner cable connection as I can pay for....and on the networks end to broadcast it, if NBC can't figure out how do make it happen, well, no one can.

You are an individual household, only accessing the 4K content via on-demand streaming. One household doesn't suck down that much bandwidth. Constant broadcasting that 4K content to every single household eats up bandwidth.

 

[Fenway]

Do they? It's hard as heck to find any information about it.

NESN has several dedicated fiber feeds to New England cable companies and each is tailored for the region it is going. When they do the 'local' weather you can see either a weatherman from Boston, Providence, Hartford, Burlington or Maine and NESN then sells regional ads. They pride themselves for not compressing the signal from TD Garden to master control in Watertown where it gets transmitted from. Road games are hit or miss.

 

[rgb63]

NESN has several dedicated fiber feeds to New England cable companies and each is tailored for the region it is going. When they do the 'local' weather you can see either a weatherman from Boston, Providence, Hartford, Burlington or Maine and NESN then sells regional ads. They pride themselves for not compressing the signal from TD Garden to master control in Watertown where it gets transmitted from. Road games are hit or miss.

But the final transmission to your TV isn't 1080p then..?

 

[Drury_Sakic]

There are still plenty of areas in North America that don't have co-ax cable, and you think cable providers will simply instantly comply with fiber rollout because 4K content is provided? The United States is not like Nordic countries, Japan, or Korea. The government isn't stepping in to invest in broadband infrastructure. The incentive for cable providers to rollout fiber is far less than the demand for it, thus why Verizon stopped rolling out FiOS.


You are an individual household, only accessing the 4K content via on-demand streaming. One household doesn't suck down that much bandwidth. Constant broadcasting that 4K content to every single household eats up bandwidth.

Starting out the goal would not be to provide it to everyone. That is how this usually works. HD was not to everyone at first. Only select markets got it for a while and it spanned out to others.

It is not also a necessity to provide the content to everyone at one time. If it was, at least at first, only provided via an app or a new box produced by a cable company --- such as the comcast box --- that would limit the need for extreme bandwidth right away.

Every company out there working on 4k is going towards some sort of on-demand or streaming sourcing of 4k. That would be one way to help sort out the bandwidth limits at first.

Naysayers keep thinking that this is going to roll out to every person in the world all at once. That is not it at all. You start small and build. Plus, as others have mentioned, right now the market is about 5% 4k tvs right now. If the NHL shoots super aggressive they MIGHT be ready for the SCF, if not next season. By then I would guess the 4k market would be 15-20% MAX.

Point being the market you are sourcing to is not large right now and you don't have to provide for everyone. If it is provided via traditional, i.e. not app driven methods, maybe it is further limited to higher end infrastructure areas at first.

I don't get the resistance to wanting the NHL to be first to market here. If anything they are the perfect league to do it. They don't have the millions of billions of fans you get from the NFL, thus there will not be a glut of people sucking down the bandwidth. They have a decent app already running and are partners with NBC/Comcast-TimeWarner which is arguably leading the charge as a cable company for 4k. Hockey would gain a ton from being in 4k, the visual clarity will help a ton in following the puck and identifying players on the ice. The NHL is also largely filmed via fixed cameras and have a relatively slow pan left and right for most shots. The NHL is also looking to grow it's market share, which is what you would get a chance to do as early 4k TV adopters do whatever they can to see some 4k content.

 

[Drury_Sakic]

But the final transmission to your TV isn't 1080p then..?

I think there are a few smaller cable companies that do 1080p. I have also read that networks broadcast 1080p via over the air signals, which is part of the reason why the HD Antennas give much better video quality than cable if you get the signal where you live.

 

[Fenway]

The whole concept behind the Xfinity (Comcast) X1 box is that a video signal is only sent to the box when requested. I have had the box for 18 months and they are getting most of the bugs out.

 

[saskriders]

The NHL isn't the one making that decision. It is up to the broadcasters.

 

[rgb63]

I think there are a few smaller cable companies that do 1080p. I have also read that networks broadcast 1080p via over the air signals, which is part of the reason why the HD Antennas give much better video quality than cable if you get the signal where you live.

There are no OTA 1080p signals in the US. None of the major networks do it, ABC and Fox do 720p. CBS, NBC, and everybody else that does OTA are 1080i.

OTA is better quality because of the compression (or lack of). The resolution is the same.

About the smaller cable companies, even if that was true - it doesn't matter if they feed you 1080p from their box if their source isn't 1080p. The networks out there aren't sending 1080p. Even NESN as mentioned above is sending 1080i to the consumer.

 

[sandysan]

I think there are a few smaller cable companies that do 1080p. I have also read that networks broadcast 1080p via over the air signals, which is part of the reason why the HD Antennas give much better video quality than cable if you get the signal where you live.

Terrestrial ota is 720p or 1080i if I recall correctly.

 

[sandysan]

The whole concept behind the Xfinity (Comcast) X1 box is that a video signal is only sent to the box when requested. I have had the box for 18 months and they are getting most of the bugs out.

Isn't that just switched digital? Is comcast going ALL channels on demand? Cox pushes the fast majority of their content to everyone only the low demand fringe channels make it to SDV ( this of course includes things like nhl net and fxx)