NHL Making Contingency Plans for Arena-less Coyotes? (All Relo Speculation Here)

[These Are The Days]

Pretty sure neither Florida team had much issue with the current alignment, if anything it helps their bottom line by filling their arenas with snowbirds from Toronto, Detroit, Boston, Montreal, etc. (also the best traveling fanbases) more frequently.

NHL wasn't going to break up the NY-NJ-PA rivalry, and the Caps were a historic Patrick Division team who got to go home. I guess you could make a case that Carolina belongs in the Atlantic being historic Hartford, but that would've resulted in the Florida teams being split.

You make a sound argument but's ridiculous that the NHL crafted 7 and 8 team divisions to begin with. Between yourself and I with a couple of brews we probably could've done better. For the record this article very accurately sums up the thought of everyone at the time of the realignment

http://www.tampabay.com/sports/hockey/lightning/nhl-realignment-wont-help-tampa-bay-lightning/1205047

I hated it then and I hate it now.

The last thing is that the Lightning don't have an issue selling out games without the help of those markets. All it does is make everyone assume we can't sell out our games without their help. That's despite the fact that fans of teams like Detroit and Montreal come in and invades everyone's barn with thousands fans in every arena every night, it's not exclusive to just us.

 

[rojac]

You make a sound argument but's ridiculous that the NHL crafted 7 and 8 team divisions to begin with. Between yourself and I with a couple of brews we probably could've done better. For the record this article very accurately sums up the thought of everyone at the time of the realignment

http://www.tampabay.com/sports/hockey/lightning/nhl-realignment-wont-help-tampa-bay-lightning/1205047

I hated it then and I hate it now.

The last thing is that the Lightning don't have an issue selling out games without the help of those markets. All it does is make everyone assume we can't sell out our games without their help. That's despite the fact that fans of teams like Detroit and Montreal come in and invades everyone's barn with thousands fans in every arena every night, it's not exclusive to just us.

And what makes you so sure that the alignment that you come up with would get a 3/4 vote from the BoG. Why do so many people who discuss alignments ignore this?

 

[aqib]

And why would Vegas or QC want the Coyotes? They would be a 3 time loser if they left. Seattle is the largest and most prepared market to handle that.

Isn't that essentially what the Devils were before showing up in Jersey?

 

[These Are The Days]

Why not just flip the florida teams with columbus and pittsburgh?

From a travel standpoint (which was supposed to be the whole big idea for the realignment to begin with) that makes perfect sense.

If I'm not mistaken that was the original idea and I remember reading somewhere that Pittsburgh so vehemently opposed it that they got help from the Flyers to shoot the idea down.

I don't want to break up the Pittsburgh/Philadelphia rivalry nor do I want to send Detroit or Columbus back West but SOMETHING is gonna happen if the Coyotes get moved to QC and in my mind they are THE only serious choice while everyone else can be considered for expansion.

Worst case scenario for QC is that the Nords play out next season in the Colisee Pepsi while the new arena honors any and all previous dates for their scheduled venues without having to worry about hockey. Then it's off to their new house.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

This is with what I have trouble. How can you say it's a strong market, with no modern-NHL history and only able to get into the league under certain conditions. To me that's not strong market, that's a market with risk, acceptable risk maybe, but with a risk.

A strong market is one that would take any existing team or any expansion team, at pretty much any price, and live with it, built with it.

Right now, I see only two such markets, Quebec and Vegas. Those two markets don't care if they get Coyotes, another team or an expansion team composed uniquely by 4th liners. They would embrace it and work with it.

Seattle, with their arena shenanigans, justified or not, from a business stand point is a risk. You go there but you literally have ZERO guarantee you will have an arena to play in.

Portland, you have an arena but the big question is does the arena wants you ? I have my doubts.

In all honesty, if Coyotes are kicked out of GRA, have them play 11 home games in downtown Phoenix, have them play 10 home games in Vegas, 10 homes games in either Seattle or Portland and 10 home games in Quebec.

Work the schedule so that the 10 games in Quebec coincide with the one or two yearly travels to East Coyotes make. Add in a few others West teams visiting East and have them play one of the mandatory vs Coyotes games.

Play the 41 away games as scheduled. Then at the end of the 82 games parcours, evaluate the 4 experiences. How was team welcomed, how many tickets were sold, how many news media articles were printed, how many TV viewers tuned in. I think you'll get a goldmine rich data about 4 markets for your hockey team.

I can understand the concerns regarding the markets but it is not realistic to have them play in four different markets for their home games. The PA would never agree to it and ownership wouldn't want to do it either for cost reasons.

 

[Melrose Munch]

Isn't that essentially what the Devils were before showing up in Jersey?

Denver was actually good. The coyotes have been awful for years and were for large swaths of the tenure in Winnipeg.

From a travel standpoint (which was supposed to be the whole big idea for the realignment to begin with) that makes perfect sense.

If I'm not mistaken that was the original idea and I remember reading somewhere that Pittsburgh so vehemently opposed it that they got help from the Flyers to shoot the idea down.

I don't want to break up the Pittsburgh/Philadelphia rivalry nor do I want to send Detroit or Columbus back West but SOMETHING is gonna happen if the Coyotes get moved to QC and in my mind they are THE only serious choice while everyone else can be considered for expansion.

Worst case scenario for QC is that the Nords play out next season in the Colisee Pepsi while the new arena honors any and all previous dates for their scheduled venues without having to worry about hockey. Then it's off to their new house.

Well now that Pittsburgh will have new ownership we'll see what happens. That switch would cut down on travel and keep the I-95 corridor together (except Gulf Coast city Tampa ) I personally think the coyotes should go to Seattle, why ruin Quebec or Vegas with that mess.

 

[Buck Aki Berg]

If I'm not mistaken that was the original idea and I remember reading somewhere that Pittsburgh so vehemently opposed it that they got help from the Flyers to shoot the idea down.

Obviously the Pens have their roots in the old Patrick Division, so I can understand the opposition. But having Detroit, Toronto, Montreal, and Boston in your barn that much more often seems like a pretty fair trade. They also could have taken advantage of familiarity breeding contempt with Ottawa as well, not to mention having Buffalo in their backyard for a geographic rivalry of sorts along with Columbus. I think the Pens would've fit in quite well in the Northeast Atlantic Division.

 

[Blueblood]

Might as well move the Florida teams west because if the Yotes move to Quebec Florida will end up relocating west anyway. Tampa can move back when the two expansion teams join the west.

 

[These Are The Days]

And what makes you so sure that the alignment that you come up with would get a 3/4 vote from the BoG. Why do so many people who discuss alignments ignore this?

The alignment I have personally come up with should QC get the Yotes is much like the old one and that one stood the test of time for years. Outside of Detroit getting screwed into going back west (and I have NO vendetta against the Wings. Detroit is the furthest city west that is still in the eastern time zone and through that alone I picked them to move) I don't know what would be so radically wrong with this since it keeps pretty much every major rivalry in the game together and even re-introduces Hawks vs. Wings. It is very conducive to travel save for the fact that Colorado is a bit on an island.

Western/Campbell Conference

Pacific/Ross
LA Kings
Anaheim
San Jose
Colorado

Northwest/Smythe
Edmonton
Calgary
Winnipeg
Minnesota
Vancouver

Central/Norris
Chicago
St. Louis
Dallas
Nashville
Detroit

14 teams

Eastern/Prince of Wales Conference

Atlantic/Patrick
New York Rangers
New York Islanders
New Jersey
Philadelphia
Pittsburgh

Northeast/Adams
Montreal
Buffalo
Boston
Toronto
Ottawa
Quebec City

Southeast/Hart
Washington
Tampa Bay
Florida
Carolina
Columbus

16 teams

As soon as the 2 expansion teams in Seattle and Vegas are ready to go (unless the Yotes go to Portland because they seem unlikely to want to pay expansion fees) you move Detroit back East.

If you think it sucks then hey, you're welcome to your opinion of it. What am I gonna do? Jump through the screen and call you a big meanie lol.

 

[aqib]

Denver was actually good. The coyotes have been awful for years and were for large swaths of the tenure in Winnipeg.

Yeah except thats not even remotely true. In their BEST season they went 19-40-21 and got swept in the first round. They never made the playoffs again until they got to jersey. That was also after 2 miserable seasons in KC.

 

[powerstuck]

I can understand the concerns regarding the markets but it is not realistic to have them play in four different markets for their home games. The PA would never agree to it and ownership wouldn't want to do it either for cost reasons.

The way it stands now, they would more than likely make more cash doing my scenario than staying put in Glendale without the $15M AMF.

 

[zetajerk]

You make a sound argument but's ridiculous that the NHL crafted 7 and 8 team divisions to begin with. Between yourself and I with a couple of brews we probably could've done better. For the record this article very accurately sums up the thought of everyone at the time of the realignment

http://www.tampabay.com/sports/hockey/lightning/nhl-realignment-wont-help-tampa-bay-lightning/1205047

I hated it then and I hate it now.

The last thing is that the Lightning don't have an issue selling out games without the help of those markets. All it does is make everyone assume we can't sell out our games without their help. That's despite the fact that fans of teams like Detroit and Montreal come in and invades everyone's barn with thousands fans in every arena every night, it's not exclusive to just us.

Didn't the Lightning and Panthers organizations both protest the new alignment? Also, the Lightning didn't have much trouble selling out in the years preceding the "every team has to play every other team a million times a year" crap when they were in the Southeast Division.

 

[seanlinden]

It is the best case scenario right now and evens out the conferences. Four teams in the central are closer than any team (other than Florida) in the Atlantic. It's a step in the right direction.

I think you're missing out on the fact that this whole "alignment" thing is more about scheduling and game times, and time-zones, not whether the flights are 3 hours or 1 hour.

Tampa & Florida don't really have much to complain about, infact, I think from a revenue perspective, they'd prefer to be in a division with Toronto and Montreal as opposed to the Carolina/Washington/Atlanta group they had in the past; given the snowbird effect.

 

[Melrose Munch]

Yeah except thats not even remotely true. In their BEST season they went 19-40-21 and got swept in the first round. They never made the playoffs again until they got to jersey. That was also after 2 miserable seasons in KC.

You don't think 19 wins for a team three years in a new market is good? Then again you thought the coyotes making the playoffs 4x from 1996-2000 since they moved from Winnipeg wasn't good enough either.


And further more, NYC/NJ was the largest market for them to move to, just like Seattle for the Yotes.

 

[Melrose Munch]

The alignment I have personally come up with should QC get the Yotes is much like the old one and that one stood the test of time for years. Outside of Detroit getting screwed into going back west (and I have NO vendetta against the Wings. Detroit is the furthest city west that is still in the eastern time zone and through that alone I picked them to move) I don't know what would be so radically wrong with this since it keeps pretty much every major rivalry in the game together and even re-introduces Hawks vs. Wings. It is very conducive to travel save for the fact that Colorado is a bit on an island.

Western/Campbell Conference

Pacific/Ross
LA Kings
Anaheim
San Jose
Colorado

Northwest/Smythe
Edmonton
Calgary
Winnipeg
Minnesota
Vancouver

Central/Norris
Chicago
St. Louis
Dallas
Nashville
Detroit

14 teams

Eastern/Prince of Wales Conference

Atlantic/Patrick
New York Rangers
New York Islanders
New Jersey
Philadelphia
Pittsburgh

Northeast/Adams
Montreal
Buffalo
Boston
Toronto
Ottawa
Quebec City

Southeast/Hart
Washington
Tampa Bay
Florida
Carolina
Columbus

16 teams

As soon as the 2 expansion teams in Seattle and Vegas are ready to go (unless the Yotes go to Portland because they seem unlikely to want to pay expansion fees) you move Detroit back East.

If you think it sucks then hey, you're welcome to your opinion of it. What am I gonna do? Jump through the screen and call you a big meanie lol.

No southeast division. Washington's fanbase got eroded over that and those teams were hardly on TV. Just stick with what we have and flip CBJ/PGH with the florida squads. If Pittsburgh is so boss, they can handle it.

 

[Blueblood]

I think you're missing out on the fact that this whole "alignment" thing is more about scheduling and game times, and time-zones, not whether the flights are 3 hours or 1 hour.

It's only one hour. Not really a big deal.

 

[tank44]

Re: Seattle arguments....

The biggest issue it seems here is that there is no suitable arena. As noted with SoDo it's a circle issue with A> No arena without a new team and B> No team without a new arena. SoDo arena financing is set but requires NBA first. Hansen was sure he was getting ths Sac.Kings 3 years ago that they didnt care if NHL first was an option since that didnt seem like an outcome. Since he didn't get the Kings he's moved slower on the arena front since his main investment is into the NBA. With the Tukwila option, they are moving fast to get something done and move on with all the processes involved. In any case, if Seattle were to get a relocation or expansion, one of the two arenas will be approved and fast tracked to get done ASAP. Key Arena is not great but it can work as a temporary facility. It will be similar to any option the Coyotes have playing at America West or whatever the Suns arena is currently called. Key is not a ****hole built in the 60s, it was renovated in the mid 90s but that renovation made hockey games a horeshoe setup. It can work for 1-2 seasons. An expansion team would probably be better for these logistics to avoid the Key but it's not a total deal breaker for a relocation option.

The biggest thing the NHL may need to consider is that NHL will be ok in Seattle if & whenever they get a team. However if the NBA gets to town first then yes it will be the 5th team in town. IF you can beat the NBA to town then you become the only winter sport and adopt the anti-NBA people before they can get back together with the NBA. This issue is one of the few where Vegas makes more sense than Seattle since it'll be the only game in town there. Portland has the NBA entrenched and is not a slam dunk either.

I agree that Quebec City might make the most financial sense but it does not grow the game at all. When stats are thrown out that only 5.7% of Seattle population are hockey fans, it's because it is not on the forefront and that major league teams exist for 3 other of the major leagues (including MLS). Usually these polls only allow for 1 entry and not "choose all". If this survey was done during NFL season the past 3 years, that may get those numbers skewed as well.

 

[These Are The Days]

Obviously the Pens have their roots in the old Patrick Division, so I can understand the opposition. But having Detroit, Toronto, Montreal, and Boston in your barn that much more often seems like a pretty fair trade. They also could have taken advantage of familiarity breeding contempt with Ottawa as well, not to mention having Buffalo in their backyard for a geographic rivalry of sorts along with Columbus. I think the Pens would've fit in quite well in the Northeast Atlantic Division.

Trust me dude it's not a fair trade. The drunken Canadian fans are annoying as hell and it's even worse when they get in your face and say "There's more of us than you!!!" and obnoxiously laugh and high five their friends. Now granted I've only seen this a handful of times in the 8+ years I've been going to games, it makes me wonder how many other Lightning fans deal with this. In terms of financial support the Panthers could use it but they haven't had a good team to cheer for in 10 years. It's not a wonder to me why they don't sell out.

Moving Tampa West is just a bad idea man. Detroit or Columbus going would suck because of the time difference but at the same time at least their rivals would be much closer. You can't say that about Tampa or Florida. We'd get the time zone split and still have to travel 1,000 miles per rival save for each other and Nashville. We'd get a double whammy.

 

[seanlinden]

From a travel standpoint (which was supposed to be the whole big idea for the realignment to begin with) that makes perfect sense.

If I'm not mistaken that was the original idea and I remember reading somewhere that Pittsburgh so vehemently opposed it that they got help from the Flyers to shoot the idea down.

I don't want to break up the Pittsburgh/Philadelphia rivalry nor do I want to send Detroit or Columbus back West but SOMETHING is gonna happen if the Coyotes get moved to QC and in my mind they are THE only serious choice while everyone else can be considered for expansion.

Worst case scenario for QC is that the Nords play out next season in the Colisee Pepsi while the new arena honors any and all previous dates for their scheduled venues without having to worry about hockey. Then it's off to their new house.

Should be clear, the whole idea for re-alignment was to fix TV issues, travel was a secondary benefit.

That being said, the whole shuffling of Pittsburgh, Columbus, Florida, Tampa, Carolina, or whomever, doesn't actually go towards solving any of the leagues problems if the Coyotes end up in Quebec.

The problem becomes -- you've got 17 teams in the Eastern time zone, 13 in the rest. 1 hour time-differences are no big deal, 2 hour time-differences are problematic, 3 hour time differences have real impacts on viewership.

 

[seanlinden]

The alignment I have personally come up with should QC get the Yotes is much like the old one and that one stood the test of time for years. Outside of Detroit getting screwed into going back west (and I have NO vendetta against the Wings. Detroit is the furthest city west that is still in the eastern time zone and through that alone I picked them to move) I don't know what would be so radically wrong with this since it keeps pretty much every major rivalry in the game together and even re-introduces Hawks vs. Wings. It is very conducive to travel save for the fact that Colorado is a bit on an island.

Western/Campbell Conference

Pacific/Ross
LA Kings
Anaheim
San Jose
Colorado

Northwest/Smythe
Edmonton
Calgary
Winnipeg
Minnesota
Vancouver

Central/Norris
Chicago
St. Louis
Dallas
Nashville
Detroit

14 teams

Eastern/Prince of Wales Conference

Atlantic/Patrick
New York Rangers
New York Islanders
New Jersey
Philadelphia
Pittsburgh

Northeast/Adams
Montreal
Buffalo
Boston
Toronto
Ottawa
Quebec City

Southeast/Hart
Washington
Tampa Bay
Florida
Carolina
Columbus

16 teams

As soon as the 2 expansion teams in Seattle and Vegas are ready to go (unless the Yotes go to Portland because they seem unlikely to want to pay expansion fees) you move Detroit back East.

If you think it sucks then hey, you're welcome to your opinion of it. What am I gonna do? Jump through the screen and call you a big meanie lol.

The league isn't going to screw over Detroit like that... much better to have teams travel further, than play regularily out of prime-time. The travel thing can be mitigated by simply having road trips that stay in the same geography.

 

[tony d]

Going to be interesting for sure. Something tells me the Coyotes stay in Arizona for next year but relocate next year. I figure as well the NHL is drawing up proposals for realignment with all the cities rumoured to get the Coyotes being considered.

 

[These Are The Days]

No southeast division. Washington's fanbase got eroded over that and those teams were hardly on TV. Just stick with what we have and flip CBJ/PGH with the florida squads. If Pittsburgh is so boss, they can handle it.

Yeah I'm not happy I roped the Caps in but it was either that or move Nashville (in terms of geographic proximity) but then that raises the "Well THEY get to come east!!!" argument from Detroit who I moved back west because they were the westernmost team in the eastern time zone. DC to Tampa/Tampa to DC is a bit of a haul but it is no worse than what the western teams have to do.

 

[Blueblood]

Guys, I believe this will play out similar to Atlanta. I believe this was planned. We will go through the farce of trying to keep the team in Glendale, while a deal is done to sell the team to Quebecor. A sale of season tickets will sell out in minutes (like Winnipeg), and for a period of five years. There will be a ribbon cutting for the new arena, and an unveiling of the new jerseys. It doesn't matter how bad the team will be in the beginning. This team will have a TV contract, a sold out crowd, and resume a rivalry with Montreal. It is great for Hockey!

 

[Melrose Munch]

Should be clear, the whole idea for re-alignment was to fix TV issues, travel was a secondary benefit.

That being said, the whole shuffling of Pittsburgh, Columbus, Florida, Tampa, Carolina, or whomever, doesn't actually go towards solving any of the leagues problems if the Coyotes end up in Quebec.

The problem becomes -- you've got 17 teams in the Eastern time zone, 13 in the rest. 1 hour time-differences are no big deal, 2 hour time-differences are problematic, 3 hour time differences have real impacts on viewership.

So don't move QC west

 

[Blueblood]

So don't move QC west

I have a feeling the addition of Quebec was already considered in the billion dollar TV deal with Rogers and TVA.