NHL Expansion back on agenda?

[Voight]

Far be it for me to be a BCE cheerleader, but BCE's debt is problematic, but I would hardly call the company "broke" - in particular after raising this much cash from selling its share of MLSE.

But you're right - BCE hardly seems to be in the mood to be investing in a Toronto2 franchise.

That cash is going to pay off some of their debt, they are in serious financial trouble. They eill never fold as the government will bail them out if things get really bad.

 

[StreetHawk]

Don’t think his arena’s new ice system was in the works at the time when the league began talking to Ryan Smith.

But it’s interesting that he didn’t try throwing his hat in.

Or maybe he did and it was still a low ball offer.??

Smith was playing nice with the NHL. Fertittia had publicly said that the expansion cost for LV and Sea were overpriced. Now, naturally, the sightlines in Hou are setup for NHL hockey vs that in Utah. So, Houston was more ready arena wise. But, the NHL wanted the guy who followed their process.

NHL realistically has been in contact with Smith, Fertittia and the groups in ATL.

 

[Yukon Joe]

They wouldn't have to own the entire Montreal NBA team. They could be part owners.

Also, people keep assuming that owning teams is just a vanity purchase. With the explosion of outlets seeking content and expansion of gambling there is so much more revenue flowing to teams. You didn't have 4 groups bidding almost a billion for the Ottawa Senators because its cool to be hanging out in the owners box in Ottawa.

So I do feel like Andlauer's purchase of the Sens is in part a vanity purchase. I head the other day he was part of the consortium that originally brought the Sens back in the early 90s and he wants to help make the situation right.

And it's not so much "hanging out in the owner's box" as "hanging out at the BOG meeting and rubbing shoulders with other billionaire owners" - NHL ownership is a very exclusive club.

I feel like we're seeing a reversal of the "explosion of outlets" as streaming is bringing the cos of delivering video to nearly nothing and traditional broadcast/cable outlets are hurting. Look at all the RSNs in the US going bankrupt. Gambling - brings in advertising money but the teams themselves don't otherwise benefit.

The other reason why people want to buy sports clubs is the increase in franchise value.

 

[aqib]

Technically SLC entry was $1.2 billion.

That said..... it's this simple.....

The NHL sees Houston as a bigger market than Salt Lake City. Therefore they see Houston commanding a higher franchise entry price than they would SLC.

Plus.... I'm believing more each day that the decision to move the Coyotes to SLC started right after the arena vote in Tempe failed and it was apparent that Alex Meruelo did not have a solid backup plan in place. At that point Houston wasn't even on the radar (the new ice system going in his arena hadn't even begun yet) and Fertitta continues doubling down on wanting in cheap.

I agree that the NHL was working on a backup plan after the vote failed. I also beleive that Ryan Smith's request for an expansion process was pre-approved by the NHL and was a warning shot to all the governments in the Phoenix area.

However, I am not sure that the lack of ice system was a deal breaker in Houston. I don't think it takes 5 months to add one.

As I indicated above.... I think the NHL has a much higher number in mind for Houston than $1.2 billion.

Well it doesn't seem like Fertitta is willing to go to that level so how will he go higher.

 

[TheLegend]

I agree that the NHL was working on a backup plan after the vote failed. I also beleive that Ryan Smith's request for an expansion process was pre-approved by the NHL and was a warning shot to all the governments in the Phoenix area.

However, I am not sure that the lack of ice system was a deal breaker in Houston. I don't think it takes 5 months to add one.

With everything that was going on the league needed a landing spot that was immediately ready. For all we know Smith may have been in the better position at that time.

Well it doesn't seem like Fertitta is willing to go to that level so how will he go higher.

It's a game of chicken. And the NHL isn't in that big of a hurry. Not when (according to Bettman) they get inquiries all the time.

The options here favor the league right now.

 

[StreetHawk]

With everything that was going on the league needed a landing spot that was immediately ready. For all we know Smith may have been in the better position at that time.



It's a game of chicken. And the NHL isn't in that big of a hurry. Not when (according to Bettman) they get inquiries all the time.

The options here favor the league right now.

Fertittia has the management agreement to the toyota center. So, it's not a need to have the NHL as well. Just a matter of whether he feels that the NHL team is worth it for him.

But, yeah, it's a game of chicken between Tilman and the NHL. Both want the other, but not at the price the other wants.

 

[aqib]

With everything that was going on the league needed a landing spot that was immediately ready. For all we know Smith may have been in the better position at that time.



It's a game of chicken. And the NHL isn't in that big of a hurry. Not when (according to Bettman) they get inquiries all the time.

The options here favor the league right now.

Utah has 12K unobstructed seats and 4K obstructed seats. Houston as far as I've heard doesn't have that issue.

I recognize the game of chicken. Just saying the price keeps rising and Fertita doesnt seem to budge. That's why I don't see a team going to Houston anytime soon unless there is another group builds its own arena

 

[TheLegend]

Utah has 12K unobstructed seats and 4K obstructed seats. Houston as far as I've heard doesn't have that issue.

I recognize the game of chicken. Just saying the price keeps rising and Fertita doesnt seem to budge. That's why I don't see a team going to Houston anytime soon unless there is another group builds its own arena

In three years the Delta Center will be fully renovated and have 17-18,000 fully unobstructed seats with a hockey team in their fourth season.

 

[dj4aces]

Or as a friend of mine liked to say: "Atlanta is the city that threw up all over itself."

The cities/counties are close enough to each other to form a cohesive (and powerful) media market, far enough apart to create distinct challenges in terms of attendance. I mean, it's commonly understood by most people that there are a lot of cities where when you say "name of city," you could be meaning the actual city or meaning "the metro." I know Atlanta is not wholly unique in this regard (the challenges Phoenix presented being immediate proof enough). But I would argue it might be the most exaggerated example of the phenomenon.

I was a proud ITPer (actual city of Atlanta) the whole time and whenever I went to Alpharetta, Marietta, Kennesaw, etc. etc., it wasn't just that I was visiting another city in the legal/"on paper" sense of the word but very much psychologically. Did I know many people that lived in these places that came into town to work with me? Sure. But actually going to those areas was tantamount to a mini roadtrip (and that's coming from someone who raised in a Canadian city where a five hour drive to Halifax was a casual weekend suggestion you might make on a Friday morning...).

That said, the "on paper" of it is pretty overwhelming too: the Metro Atlanta Mayors Association encompasses 70 cities and 10 counties (and many people count more than this when they define ATL as a TV market).

I really meant what I said here: This wouldn't be "the third time in Atlanta," it would be the FIRST time in north metro. And even then, keep in mind, this is talking about why the attendance portion of the equation could be very different. How to actually make this team a hit on television/radio/digital is a whole other conversation.

I had a friend of mine from rural Minnesota visit me back in 2018, and she was pretty taken aback at exactly how big the Atlanta area actually is. She likened it to the entire region getting depression-drunk after Sherman torched it and what we see today is a result of the hangover.

As far as defining the media market though, I think most folks simply go by the Atlanta MSA, which is 24 counties strong and is almost as large in area as the state of New Jersey (~8300sq.mi for Atlanta MSA, ~8700sq.mi for NJ). It's a huge media market, so it shouldn't surprise anyone that the league wants Atlanta.

 

[GreenHornet]

"With blackjack..... and hookers.....!!"

"In fact, forget the entertainment district!!!!!"

 

[eojsmada]

In three years the Delta Center will be fully renovated and have 17-18,000 fully unobstructed seats with a hockey team in their fourth season.

And have a new arena being built for the Winter Olympics

 

[StreetHawk]

In three years the Delta Center will be fully renovated and have 17-18,000 fully unobstructed seats with a hockey team in their fourth season.

I think the point was that Houston's arena was ready to go with full clean sightlines for their 18K capacity. And the ice making machines could have been discussed with Tilman well in advance, much like the plans to renovate the Delta Center would have taken place well in advance.

But, it came down to the owners and how willing they were to play by the rules/guidelines of the NHL. Smith did, Fertittia didn't help his cause with his public comments.

 

[DaveG]

Don’t think his arena’s new ice system was in the works at the time when the league began talking to Ryan Smith.

But it’s interesting that he didn’t try throwing his hat in.

Or maybe he did and it was still a low ball offer.??

Mind you most of the people I've talked to on this are UT affiliated so not direct knowledge, but the later is the belief. The number they think is his ballpark is FAR closer to what Tom Dundon paid for the Canes than what Smith just paid for the Yotes.

 

[dj4aces]

Mind you most of the people I've talked to on this are UT affiliated so not direct knowledge, but the later is the belief. The number they think is his ballpark is FAR closer to what Tom Dundon paid for the Canes than what Smith just paid for the Yotes.

Based on the way Fertitta is talking, that's kind of the impression I got. It's not that the league is necessarily cranking up the franchise buy-in on HOU (and ATL for that matter). I think $1bn-$1.2bn is the buy-in for a new franchise, and Fertitta is balking at that price tag. He does have a pretty long history of that, so why would it be different today?

If Houston is getting the NHL at any point in the near future, it's either Fertitta comes to his sense or someone else in the market is chosen. Otherwise, it's just Fertitta standing there like Cheap Pete from In Living Color saying "Good lord, that's a lotta money..."

 

[sneakytitz]

And the ice making machines could have been discussed with Tilman well in advance, much like the plans to renovate the Delta Center would have taken place well in advance.

I'm just guessing here but I think he upgraded the ice making equipment as part of the latest Toyota Center renovations solely as a negotiation tactic.

In other words, he can go, and probably has gone, to the league and say, "I've got a top 10 North American market that you aren't in and I have an NHL-ready arena that can seat close to 18,000 fans and we can start play as soon as you say to, but you're coming off that expansion fee price you're asking if I'm going to be a buyer." And if the NHL says go kick rocks, it's not like he's out of a ton of money. Besides, what is a million or so dollars to a guy like Tilman if that calculated risk can potentially knock off many more millions during the expansion/negotiation process?

 

[sneakytitz]

No vote expected on NHL expansion at Board of Governors meeting

TSN: There is a Board of Governors meeting scheduled for next week in New York. Expansion has come up again lately with the cities of Houston and Atlanta being mentioned, but don’t count on there being any voting done on expansion according to Chris Johnston.

www.yardbarker.com

TSN: There is a Board of Governors meeting scheduled for next week in New York. Expansion has come up again lately with the cities of Houston and Atlanta being mentioned, but don’t count on there being any voting done on expansion according to Chris Johnston.

“And I was told unequivocally that there’s going to be no expansion votes or no opening of a formal expansion process as part of that meeting. I think what might happen there is perhaps Gary Bettman will update the current league owners on those expressions of interest that the league has been getting from other cities. But at this point in time, it’s still a back-burner issue. I would say for the league. Every reason to believe expansion is coming somewhere down the line, but let’s tap the brakes. It’s not coming here in the immediate future.”

 

[Melrose Munch]

So nothing is happening.

Let's revisit this later.

 

[Melrose Munch]

I do agree with @aqib here,

But why should Fertitia pay what the NHL wants? Nothing is showing in the numbers that any NHL franchise outside the top 3 is worth 1 billion-plus.

 

[mouser]

Just a thought. If QC isn't on the menu, what's the other eastern team other than Atlanta to make 36?

Most likely Nashville. I think they’d be happy moving to the eastern conf.

 

[Melrose Munch]

But sports ownership, by itself, is a far way from BCE's core competencies of being a telecom / media company. The only reason for a BCE to want to own a sports franchise is because of the synergies involved with owning a media company. In Canada, the biggest media market (by far) is Toronto.

There'd be no benefit to BCE to owning a franchise in Quebec.

BCE is different from Rogers in that it is not dominated by a single shareholder, where individual ego may insist on owning a team even if not otherwise a great investment.

They're headquartered in Montreal. Owning a Montreal baseball team would open up new revenue streams and if they got a taxpayer-funded area, would pay for itself in no time. But that is years down the line.

 

[varsaku]

I do agree with @aqib here,

But why should Fertitia pay what the NHL wants? Nothing is showing in the numbers that any NHL franchise outside the top 3 is worth 1 billion-plus.

Supply and demand is the only thing driving up team valuations.

 

[StreetHawk]

Just a thought. If QC isn't on the menu, what's the other eastern team other than Atlanta to make 36?

Who knows how the nhl will setup the divisions at 36 clubs. 6x6 or 4x9?

Van, sea, SJ, la, Ana, LV are PST
Edm, cal, col, Utah, AZ are MST (Az goes to PST when we spring ahead)
Stl, dal, Hou, win, min, chi, Nas are CST
Everyone else is EST

At 6x6, one CST team has to play with the MST clubs unless they add another PST or MST team which would then need either Chicago or Nash to kick over to the East.

 

[BMN]

I had a friend of mine from rural Minnesota visit me back in 2018, and she was pretty taken aback at exactly how big the Atlanta area actually is. She likened it to the entire region getting depression-drunk after Sherman torched it and what we see today is a result of the hangover.

My aforementioned "threw up on itself" friend was also from Minnesota. This city clearly leaves an impression on North Star Staters.

If Houston is getting the NHL at any point in the near future, it's either Fertitta comes to his sense or someone else in the market is chosen. Otherwise, it's just Fertitta standing there like Cheap Pete from In Living Color saying "Good lord, that's a lotta money..."

"I got $800 million...let me get the players and the logo!"

 

[TheLegend]

I was reminded earlier today by a media person who had previously looked into Houston and Fertitta and an NHL official referred to Fertitta as "all hat, no cattle."

 

[DaveG]

Supply and demand is the only thing driving up team valuations.

That and the rights to develop the areas around stadiums which are increasingly becoming part of these deals in recent years especially when there's a new stadium involved. So if TF already has that then I get where he's coming from, but he also already has a proven extensive history of being one cheap motherf***er even more so than Dundon for all the memes about him, so it's probably just TF being TF.