NHL Expansion back on agenda?

[Barclay Donaldson]

The San Antonio Spurs are seeking a new arena and baseball stadium in downtown San Antonio, and could be leaving the Frost Bank Center in a few years. If they do indeed end up moving, that will leave both the Frost Bank Center, and Freeman Coliseum next door, possibly open for a future hockey team. Time will tell.

There are a long string of "ifs" that need to pan out for San Antonio to be workable, let alone the top option

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

San Antonio would be a good choice, given it's proximity to Austin, which hosts Dallas' AHL affiliate. Would love to see the ECHL/SPHL/FPHL put more teams into eastern Texas to help boost the hockey scene in Texas.

San Antonio has the gigantic issue of the arena being controlled by people who have no interest in hosting hockey. It is the reason why the Stampede were put up for sale opening up the market to begin with.

The Spurs ownership group control the arena, so as long as they continue their policy of pursuing stuff like soccer for their market, San Antonio isn't an option. That is despite being a desirable market from at a glimpse

 

[aqib]

San Antonio has the gigantic issue of the arena being controlled by people who have no interest in hosting hockey. It is the reason why the Stampede were put up for sale opening up the market to begin with.

The Spurs ownership group control the arena, so as long as they continue their policy of pursuing stuff like soccer for their market, San Antonio isn't an option. That is despite being a desirable market from at a glimpse

Does anyone know why they don't want hockey? Are they just not interested in the sport or do they not think the market can support 2 winter sports?

 

[StreetHawk]

Houston would have a couple of options for their A club. Tulsa, OK used to be the A club for the Oilers. And the arena they played in the Bokk Arena/Center is a very nice building, which holds 17K for hockey. Under a 2 hr flight to get from Tulsa to Houston.

 

[dj4aces]

Houston would have a couple of options for their A club. Tulsa, OK used to be the A club for the Oilers. And the arena they played in the Bokk Arena/Center is a very nice building, which holds 17K for hockey. Under a 2 hr flight to get from Tulsa to Houston.

If they can't put their AHL affiliate nearby in Texas, places like NOLA or OKC could work as well. Smaller metro areas that wouldn't fill a NHL barn, but could at least draw well in AHL terms.

Don't mind me. Just thinking out loud.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

Does anyone know why they don't want hockey? Are they just not interested in the sport or do they not think the market can support 2 winter sports?

Supposedly Spurs Sports & Entertainment had a variety of reasons for offloading the Stampede.

It was some combination of:

-wanting to make sure the prime non-Spurs dates were given to things that can make a lot more money than a hockey game. For example a concert, convention, shows, all of which they are hosting with far more frequency now than they were 8 years ago which can also be partially attributed to the lessened conversion time

-wanting to invest more resources into soccer, which they were championing a push for acquiring a MLS expansion franchise before Covid hit. They even dropped $3 million just to get the arena deal done and they still operate it as well despite not owning it. They also bought into gambling and a couple other new revenue sources dropping a number in the mid seven figures within one year of selling the Stampede

There are a bunch of rumors outside of those verifiable things, so nothing anyone can confirm

 

[Yukon Joe]

Does anyone know why they don't want hockey? Are they just not interested in the sport or do they not think the market can support 2 winter sports?

Can't say they don't want hockey - the Spurs ownership group owned an AHL team from 2002-2020.

They may just not have the money? The Holt family bought the Spurs back in 1993, when I can't imagine it would have cost that much money. Current CEO is Peter J Holt, with an estimated net worth of $200-$400 mil, which isn't really enough to put you in the NHL billionaire's club.

Or of course their experience with the San Antonio Rampage may have them thinking hockey won't work in San Antonio.

 

[StreetHawk]

If they can't put their AHL affiliate nearby in Texas, places like NOLA or OKC could work as well. Smaller metro areas that wouldn't fill a NHL barn, but could at least draw well in AHL terms.

Don't mind me. Just thinking out loud.

Seeing more and more NHL clubs wanting their A club close by. Allows the GM and other coaches to drop in and see the players. Easy to get players up so that they can paper transact guys up and down to save cap space. But, still, need all of the practice facilities to develop the prospects.

SA would be ideal logistically, but if that's not an option, they can go out of state to one next door. Minny has theirs in Iowa for example and that seems to work well.

 

[dj4aces]

SA would be ideal logistically, but if that's not an option, they can go out of state to one next door. Minny has theirs in Iowa for example and that seems to work well.

Exactly, and that's kinda my logic in that. If the AHL affiliate can't be in San Antonio (for example), having it in NOLA would help grow the sport in that area.

For those of us here in Atlanta, the future AHL affiliate could be any number of other things too. The Glads could get promoted to the AHL. Greenville's Swamp Rabbits could be purchased by the owner and maybe become the AHL affiliate? They could put the AHL affiliate in Birmingham and bring back the Bulls?

There's a desire to grow hockey in our states, and that's optimal, but it wouldn't hurt to also try to grow the sport across the region as well.

 

[hockey20000]

gary shutting down rumors on expansion for now thank you no one wanted to see atlanta 3.0 anyway

 

[StreetHawk]

gary shutting down rumors on expansion for now thank you no one wanted to see atlanta 3.0 anyway

Were his words not "there is no expansion process". Which IMO is correct in that there isn't an open application process where KC, QC, SD, etc. can apply.

NHL has their targets set and have done the behind the scenes work already on their targets, on the owners, market and arena situations.

 

[eojsmada]

gary shutting down rumors on expansion for now thank you no one wanted to see atlanta 3.0 anyway

Never listen to Gary's "lawyer speak." Gary will only tell you what is and what isn't the case, at the precise moment that you asked him the question. They are clearly assessing the candidates for expansion and going over potential timelines, but nothing is concrete as those potentialities and candidates will run through a vetting process.

I expect formal expansion to be announced once the CBA is re-negotiated.

 

[StreetHawk]

Never listen to Gary's "lawyer speak." Gary will only tell you what is and what isn't the case, at the precise moment that you asked him the question. They are clearly assessing the candidates for expansion and going over potential timelines, but nothing is concrete as those potentialities and candidates will run through a vetting process.

I expect formal expansion to be announced once the CBA is re-negotiated.

Gary and the NHL know where they want to go to next and have done work on it. All behind the scenes. Going to be very much like how Seattle was awarded a team. Just a matter of when they want or need to announce something as ATL group(s) need a confirmed team before the county/city will approve their plans for example.

 

[TheLegend]

Were his words not "there is no expansion process". Which IMO is correct in that there isn't an open application process where KC, QC, SD, etc. can apply.

NHL has their targets set and have done the behind the scenes work already on their targets, on the owners, market and arena situations.

You're attempting to reason with someone who's only contribution to the thread so far has been to troll Atlanta posters.

That said.... Gary is always in "throttle the rhetoric down" mode. Everything he says is calculated.

 

[ponder719]

That said.... Gary is always in "throttle the rhetoric down" mode. Everything he says is calculated.

Exactly this. Gary always and only presents the exact narrative the NHL wants at the exact time he's speaking. There will never be an expansion process until they specifically decide there is one; there will never be a threat of relocation until the signed paperwork is on his desk; there will never be a lockout until the day games get canceled. Then, suddenly, when they want it to exist, it exists.

 

[TheLegend]

Or, as legendary late Washington Post executive editor Ben Bradlee once put it, ...

THIS!!!

There are discussions going on. Have been for going on at least two years. It's just not at a stage where the league can definitely say anything.

 

[eojsmada]

Gary and the NHL know where they want to go to next and have done work on it. All behind the scenes. Going to be very much like how Seattle was awarded a team. Just a matter of when they want or need to announce something as ATL group(s) need a confirmed team before the county/city will approve their plans for example.

He also doesn't want to put the cart before the horse and endanger the CBA negotiations, nor have them used as leverage by the NHLPA. So he'll keep everything quiet until the CBA is renewed and then unveil everything.

 

[TheLegend]

Exactly this. Gary always and only presents the exact narrative the NHL wants at the exact time he's speaking. There will never be an expansion process until they specifically decide there is one; there will never be a threat of relocation until the signed paperwork is on his desk; there will never be a lockout until the day games get canceled. Then, suddenly, when they want it to exist, it exists.

Yep.....

Literally nobody knew about Utah until the situation with the Coyotes got to a point where the league had decided it was time to act.

And Ryan Smith made first contact with the league about an expansion spot almost two years prior to that..

 

[TheLegend]

Fertitta still trying to low ball…. probably cursing Ryan Smith right now.

https://x.com/i/web/status/1838635024737857822

 

[Yukon Joe]

He also doesn't want to put the cart before the horse and endanger the CBA negotiations, nor have them used as leverage by the NHLPA. So he'll keep everything quiet until the CBA is renewed and then unveil everything.

So I agree with what everyone is saying (that Bettman will deny right up until he announces expansion) but I don't see any linkage between expansion and the CBA. Maybe if they want to do re-alignment, but otherwise the league can expand without amending the CBA.

 

[StreetHawk]

Fertitta still trying to low ball…. probably cursing Ryan Smith right now.

https://x.com/i/web/status/1838635024737857822

Seems consistent with his prior stance and opinion of the NHL. He's not a fan of hockey. This would be a pure business transaction for him. So, maybe it's good for Houston hockey fans if he's not the owner if that's his mindset.

But, right now, he's the main person that would be the person to bring the NHL to Houston. A lot of time, effort, money would be needed to figure out another arena outside of Harris county for another prospective owner.

 

[Yukon Joe]

Fertitta still trying to low ball…. probably cursing Ryan Smith right now.

https://x.com/i/web/status/1838635024737857822

So I don't get this. I think the price is pretty well established - at a minimum $1.2 billion. Now maybe the league is asking for even more but that seems hard to justify when Utah was purchased only months ago for that price.

There's a lot of smoke around Houston, which means Fertitta. So I would have thought he'd gotten over that hangup.

Because the NHL doesn't need to expand right now. Houston would be a nice market but hardly essential to the profitability of the league.

 

[StreetHawk]

So I don't get this. I think the price is pretty well established - at a minimum $1.2 billion. Now maybe the league is asking for even more but that seems hard to justify when Utah was purchased only months ago for that price.

There's a lot of smoke around Houston, which means Fertitta. So I would have thought he'd gotten over that hangup.

Because the NHL doesn't need to expand right now. Houston would be a nice market but hardly essential to the profitability of the league.

TB's valuation was $2 billion earlier this year and Hou and ATL are larger metro areas. Probably looking at a floor of $1.5 bill at a minimum. Probably why Fertitta is still holding onto his stance. Team success will go up and down over time.

 

[Sgt Schultz]

San Antonio may be a very good option for the 36th team. Assuming a Quebec City owner has the money, San Antonio, Houston and Atlanta make sense. If San Diego wanted to go and build a new arena I'd say they are another fantastic idea. Portland too but I suppose a prospective owner would've said something by now.

We talked about Portland in one of the other threads about (or getting sidetracked on) expansion. They do have a question of ownership, but it is unique. Prospective owners for an NHL team are also prospective owners for the Trail Blazers......which are not for sale......but are going to be sold.....someday.....at an unspecified time in the future.

Paul Allen (former Trail Blazers owner) mentioned interest in an NHL team when he was alive. It was a passing comment that he made a couple of times, if the price and conditions were right.

He died and his estate, including the Trail Blazers, has been in a trust which is run by his sister, Jody. Nobody knows what conditions Allen specified, specifically, if the Trail Blazers have to be sold at some point. The presumption is the entire estate has to be disposed of. She has said the team will be sold, but has not publicly set a timeline. A couple of offers have been made at around market value ($2B range) and turned down because they are not for sale "at this time."

So there may be prospective owners in Portland, but they are waiting to find out if the chef's masterpiece filet is available before they ask about the pork chop.

 

[Yukon Joe]

TB's valuation was $2 billion earlier this year and Hou and ATL are larger metro areas. Probably looking at a floor of $1.5 bill at a minimum. Probably why Fertitta is still holding onto his stance. Team success will go up and down over time.

Tampa though is an established brand of 30 years, with an established fan base (and Stanley Cup winning pedigree) so I would expect them to be valued more than an expansion team in Houston or Atlanta.

But yeah - maybe Fertitta is trying to hold them to something closer to $1.2 billion, and the NHL is trying to go higher.