NHL cautiously optimistic about 2021 World Cup.

[snipes]

I just want best on best hockey no gimmick teams.

Don’t care if it’s Olympics or World Cup. As long as it’s best on best I’ll be happy.

 

[Jussi]

So two week minimum then. What else?

I'm not doing their job for them. They need to figure their shit out for themselves. They're talking about a one week mini-tournament.

 

[snipes]

I'm not doing their job for them. They need to figure their **** out for themselves. They're talking about a one week mini-tournament.

I’d think it would need to be at minimum 10 days.

 

[Gold Standard]

a 1 week/10 day mini tournament to fit an allstar break? yeah I'm already not liking the sound of this.

 

[Albatros]

The World Cup is so meaningless that they shouldn't really call it one at all.

 

[WingsMJN2965]

One of these days they'll figure out that nobody gives a f*** about the World Cup.

You want casual fans, send them to the Olympics.

 

[JackSlater]

Ah, I missed the part about it being a "mini tournament" for one week. Realistically in that scenario you're looking at what... four games at most for the winning team? Not a good thing and kind of reminiscent of an upgraded version of the old North America vs World format at the all star game. I don't think I'll like this, but I will wait for more details.

 

[jj cale]

I'm not doing their job for them. They need to figure their **** out for themselves. They're talking about a one week mini-tournament.

All I did was ask you what would you think is reasonable. I wasn't asking you to be hired by them and be their tournament director, All I asked is what it would take for you to "care", since you had brought it up in your post after all.

Seems like a reasonable question to ask, you are not happy with an N.H.L run world cup as is, what would make you happy?

 

[sh724]

That is just fine. Everyone has his own opinion.

The game of hockey needs some universal global approach to international schedule. It is not good for anybody if the NHL is not at Olympics. It is not good when IIHF World takes place during NHL playoffs. It is not good for European leagues to finish their season in late April (so before IIHF Worlds).

1) Winter Olympics will not change their dating, still will be in February
2) IOC will never move hockey to Summer Games even if the NHL would wish it
3) NHL would like to organise their World Cup
4) KHL would like to organise intra-leagues games (KHL/Europe clubs vs NHL)
5) KHL would like to finish their season (including playoffs) in May, but it can not due to IIHF Worlds. Other European leagues do not have such a problem, because their playoff is shorter, so they can accommodate their regular-season since September to early March, then playoffs until April. But the KHL needs to finish their regular season in late February because playoffs are longer (like NHL) than other European leagues. The KHL offered to organise IIHF Worlds in February (during Olympcis break) instead of May, so the KHL would break their regular season in February, but the league could play their playoffs until mid/late May.

All need to agree on the global events schedule. The KHL offered the following model

February break for Olympics (Year 1), IIHF Worlds (Year 2), NHL World Cup (Year 3), NHL vs Europe/KHL Challenge Cup (Year 4), then Olympics again. That means IIHF Worlds would not be played every year. That is the best scenario for hockey fans. Even the NHL should be interesting in it because the league would organise their World Cup every four years, fans would use to its timing.

Under that proposal the NHL would be taking a break every year which the NHL would never agree to. I dont see how that would even be a realistic proposal.

The biggest problems the NHL has with the Olympics are insurance costs and media rights. This does nothing to alleviate these problems and adds to them by adding a second tournament where the same problems would exist.

It has been discussed ad nauseam why the NHL has little to no interest in playing real games against other leagues. Doing this is the middle of the season would get zero support from the BOG.

That leaves the NHL world cup, which is the NHLs own event and there is no reason for the NHL to involve the IIHF, KHL, or any other organization. Sure you would be able to fill out some of the weaker teams, which dont have a chance of winning. That would also mean splitting profits with other organizations. Therefore no benefit for the NHL.

With the exception of the Olympics, the NHL would not be interested in doing any collaboration during the season and as we have seen, unless the IOC works more with the NHL the NHL is perfectly fine skipping it. If IIHF, IOC, KHL, etc. want more from the NHL they have to make it worth the NHLs time/effort/money and this proposal does none of that. Then you have the added obstacle of getting the PA to agree to it.

 

[Zine]

That is just fine. Everyone has his own opinion.

The game of hockey needs some universal global approach to international schedule. It is not good for anybody if the NHL is not at Olympics. It is not good when IIHF World takes place during NHL playoffs. It is not good for European leagues to finish their season in late April (so before IIHF Worlds).

1) Winter Olympics will not change their dating, still will be in February
2) IOC will never move hockey to Summer Games even if the NHL would wish it
3) NHL would like to organise their World Cup
4) KHL would like to organise intra-leagues games (KHL/Europe clubs vs NHL)
5) KHL would like to finish their season (including playoffs) in May, but it can not due to IIHF Worlds. Other European leagues do not have such a problem, because their playoff is shorter, so they can accommodate their regular-season since September to early March, then playoffs until April. But the KHL needs to finish their regular season in late February because playoffs are longer (like NHL) than other European leagues. The KHL offered to organise IIHF Worlds in February (during Olympcis break) instead of May, so the KHL would break their regular season in February, but the league could play their playoffs until mid/late May.

All need to agree on the global events schedule. The KHL offered the following model

February break for Olympics (Year 1), IIHF Worlds (Year 2), NHL World Cup (Year 3), NHL vs Europe/KHL Challenge Cup (Year 4), then Olympics again. That means IIHF Worlds would not be played every year. That is the best scenario for hockey fans. Even the NHL should be interesting in it because the league would organise their World Cup every four years, fans would use to its timing.

Under that proposal the NHL would be taking a break every year which the NHL would never agree to. I dont see how that would even be a realistic proposal.

The biggest problems the NHL has with the Olympics are insurance costs and media rights. This does nothing to alleviate these problems and adds to them by adding a second tournament where the same problems would exist.

It has been discussed ad nauseam why the NHL has little to no interest in playing real games against other leagues. Doing this is the middle of the season would get zero support from the BOG.

That leaves the NHL world cup, which is the NHLs own event and there is no reason for the NHL to involve the IIHF, KHL, or any other organization. Sure you would be able to fill out some of the weaker teams, which dont have a chance of winning. That would also mean splitting profits with other organizations. Therefore no benefit for the NHL.

With the exception of the Olympics, the NHL would not be interested in doing any collaboration during the season and as we have seen, unless the IOC works more with the NHL the NHL is perfectly fine skipping it. If IIHF, IOC, KHL, etc. want more from the NHL they have to make it worth the NHLs time/effort/money and this proposal does none of that. Then you have the added obstacle of getting the PA to agree to it.

Also, holding the Worlds every four years would be disastrous for global hockey. The IIHF funds its lower level tournaments in large part from revenue generated from the Worlds.

 

[vorky]

Hockey has the worst international schedule of all sports. It needs to be changed somehow. How do you want to do it?

IOC, IIHF, Hockey Federations, NHL, KHL, SHL, Liiga, etc need to meet & decide. They can agree on financial compensations for leagues/federations/IIHF as well.

Yes, the leagues would need to interrupt their season, all leagues not only the NHL.

If February is bad dating, you can organise all events in September & only Olympics in February. September would fit European leagues as well if there is no IIHF Worlds at the end of a season. But yeah, IIHF would not like it.

Status quo of IIHF Worlds is an unfair model because some teams can add players who quit from NHL PO, others can not. If they wish to organise IIHF Worlds in mid/late May, it would not be ideal but much better.

My model, Year 4 is proposed for NHL vs KHL/Europe game/s. It is just 2 to 4 clubs, no need to break league´s schedule (NHL/KHL/SHL etc), just teams playing it would have different scheduling. The KHL clubs play at Spengler Cup every Christmas, no problem with scheduling.

If the IIHF has a problem with revenues (IIHF Worlds not every year), then organise something like soccer all season. They discuss the EuroHockeyTour to transform into some European Championship. Why not?

Why do they consider World Cup instead of ASG? There needs to be a reason for it.

 

[Henkka]

I just want best on best hockey no gimmick teams.

Most interesting "gimmick teams" would be splitting Canada in Three Teams.

Team Quebec
Team Ontario
Team WHL

Split the players in terms on which CHL league you were drafted as a Canadian. Or if you wasn't drafted, then the area born.

I'm not sure if this would draw any interest for Canadians, but it would give some Memorial Cup All Star feelings on the same tournament, when these guys play against each other as adults.

When I looked some basic data, Team Ontario and team WHL Canada would be two top teams in forward scoring power, just sligthly better than USA. Sweden would be 4th best. Then Quebec would be at level of Finland/Russia.

You can build ~17 different Team Canadas from NHL players, so I think that's the way to go, rather than put some put European small countries together.

And I wouldn't give a team for Switzerlands, Germanies at all. They just won't have enough players and World Cup during a season affects on European Leagues. The permit to have a National team would be that it has to consist NHL players only, and if your Nation hasn't produced them enough in NHL, then you won't participate.

CAN, USA, RUS, SWE, FIN and CZE fill these standards.

Quebec vs. Ontario? How would that feel?

Group A
-------------
Team Ontario
Team Quebec
Sweden
Finland

Group B
-----------
Team WHL Canada
USA
Russia
Czech

To draw attendance, build groups this way. Quebec pulls full home crowd at Quebec/Montreal, Ontario pulls full home crowd at Toronto. Put WHL Canada play games against Russia and Czechs in Vancouver/Edmonton/Calgary.

USA plays in USA major cities, Chicago/New York etc. Sweden-Finland in Toronto. Russia-Czechs in Madison Square Garden.

It's business. Maximize the people's interest. Maximize Canadian interest. It's still their game.

 

[ijuka]

Funny how NHL wants to market the game but in the meanwhile doesn't understand that Olympics would be the best way to advertize the game to new fans by far.

 

[snipes]

Most interesting "gimmick teams" would be splitting Canada in Three Teams.

Team Quebec
Team Ontario
Team WHL

Split the players in terms on which CHL league you were drafted as a Canadian. Or if you wasn't drafted, then the area born.

I'm not sure if this would draw any interest for Canadians, but it would give some Memorial Cup All Star feelings on the same tournament, when these guys play against each other as adults.

When I looked some basic data, Team Ontario and team WHL Canada would be two top teams in forward scoring power, just sligthly better than USA. Sweden would be 4th best. Then Quebec would be at level of Finland/Russia.

You can build ~17 different Team Canadas from NHL players, so I think that's the way to go, rather than put some put European small countries together.

And I wouldn't give a team for Switzerlands, Germanies at all. They just won't have enough players and World Cup during a season affects on European Leagues. The permit to have a National team would be that it has to consist NHL players only, and if your Nation hasn't produced them enough in NHL, then you won't participate.

CAN, USA, RUS, SWE, FIN and CZE fill these standards.

Quebec vs. Ontario? How would that feel?

Group A
-------------
Team Ontario
Team Quebec
Sweden
Finland

Group B
-----------
Team WHL Canada
USA
Russia
Czech

To draw attendance, build groups this way. Quebec pulls full home crowd at Quebec/Montreal, Ontario pulls full home crowd at Toronto. Put WHL Canada play games against Russia and Czechs in Vancouver/Edmonton/Calgary.

USA plays in USA major cities, Chicago/New York etc. Sweden-Finland in Toronto. Russia-Czechs in Madison Square Garden.

It's business. Maximize the people's interest. Maximize Canadian interest. It's still their game.

I’m assuming that the Maritimes would go with Quebec?

 

[Fixxer]

I’m assuming that the Maritimes would go with Quebec?

Yeah, we could use Crosby and Mackinnon.

 

[sh724]

Hockey has the worst international schedule of all sports. It needs to be changed somehow. How do you want to do it?

IOC, IIHF, Hockey Federations, NHL, KHL, SHL, Liiga, etc need to meet & decide. They can agree on financial compensations for leagues/federations/IIHF as well.

Yes, the leagues would need to interrupt their season, all leagues not only the NHL.

If February is bad dating, you can organise all events in September & only Olympics in February. September would fit European leagues as well if there is no IIHF Worlds at the end of a season. But yeah, IIHF would not like it.

Status quo of IIHF Worlds is an unfair model because some teams can add players who quit from NHL PO, others can not. If they wish to organise IIHF Worlds in mid/late May, it would not be ideal but much better.

My model, Year 4 is proposed for NHL vs KHL/Europe game/s. It is just 2 to 4 clubs, no need to break league´s schedule (NHL/KHL/SHL etc), just teams playing it would have different scheduling. The KHL clubs play at Spengler Cup every Christmas, no problem with scheduling.

If the IIHF has a problem with revenues (IIHF Worlds not every year), then organise something like soccer all season. They discuss the EuroHockeyTour to transform into some European Championship. Why not?

Why do they consider World Cup instead of ASG? There needs to be a reason for it.

What other US/Canadian league does any of the proposed? The only thing i can think of is the World Baseball Classic, which was created by MLB and the MLBPA. Similarly to what the NHL was looking to do but didnt get authorization from the IIHF. Baseball is no longer in the Olympics so without the WBC there would not be an international baseball event.

The NFL does not have any sort of international events. The NBA only participates in the Olympics, which are not during their season.

The NHLs participation in the Olympics is the exception when it comes to North American sports leagues. Saying hockey has the worst international scheduling largely falls on deaf ears in NA as it is not 'normal' here. International scheduling and competitions are a much more European concept.

Any international competition will have considerably more risk for the NHL than any other league. The NHL has the best players, biggest venues, highest attendance, largest revenues, etc. The NHL doesnt need international competition to be successful. If McDavid, Crosby, Ovi, etc get hurt it will have a much bigger impact on the NHL than if a star in another league gets hurt. With the larger contracts for NHL players insurance is much more expensive.

The IIHF could choose to move the worlds to September, i dont know why the IIHF chooses to do them in the spring, but that is their choice. Even if you move the event that doesnt mean you will get more player participation. Some NHL players do go the worlds but most choose not to. Moving it to the fall would interrupt players getting ready for the season so you would not likely see an increase in participation. The NHL does not have ability to force players to go, it will always be the players choice.

If the worlds are not a fair process that is for the IIHF to figure out. The NHL is never going to support the worlds as long as it is going head to head with the NHL POs.

Even if it is only 2 to 4 teams you end up with 2 to 4 teams playing extra games in the middle of their season. Why would the NHL have 2 to 4 of its better teams go play meaningless games in the middle of their season? What happens if a couple key players get hurt and the team ends up not making the POs? The NHL team could lose millions in lost revenues for a meaningless game.

The IIHF could organize something like the Champions League for Europe, it would never work with NHL involvement, not that the NHL would ever agree to such a thing.

They would consider a world cup instead of an ASG because no one cares about the ASG, which is why the NHL keeps getting more and more gimmicky with it; first the draft and now the 3 on 3 tournament. A handful of games held in multiple cities would create significantly more buzz and revenue than the ASG.


I am not saying there shouldnt be more international competition but it wont happen unless the NHL is controlling it and doing it however they want similar to the WBC, the IIHF is not going to agree to that.

Funny how NHL wants to market the game but in the meanwhile doesn't understand that Olympics would be the best way to advertize the game to new fans by far.

Its been shown over and over the Olympics do not create long term NHL fans. There is a bump after the Olympics but it quickly fades. Any long term fans created from the Olympics are very minimal. The NHL is not allowed to advertise the Olympics or market the players, which is one of the biggest issues the NHL has with the Olympics.

 

[Henkka]

These fictive CHL-based Canadian Split Teams:

Top12 forwards with 2-season combined Points/game:

Team Ontario
----------------
1. C - Connor McDavid (1.40 pts/game)
2. LW - Taylor Hall
3. LW/C - Steven Stamkos
4. C - John Tavares
5. RW - Mitchell Marner
6. C/RW - Tyler Seguin
7. C - Sean Monahan
8. C - Ryan O'Reilly
9. F - Matt Duchene
10. C/LW - Logan Couture
11. RW - Josh Bailey
12. RW - Reilly Smith (0.80 pts/game) (NCAA route, born in Ontario)
----------------
13. C - Eric Staal (first leftoff from Team Ontario)
14. C - Joe Thornton
15. C - Bo Horvat
16. F - Max Domi
17. LW - Jeff Skinner
18. C - Dylan Strome (0.67 pts/game)
(these players are better cutoffs, than last players picked for WHL/Quebec teams)

Hall - McDavid - Seguin
Stamkos - Tavares - Marner
Duchene - ROR - Bailey
Couture - Monahan - Smith
(whoever 2 extra role players, proably Jordan Staal and Bo Horvat)

***

Team Quebec
------------------
1. LW - Brad Marchand (1.26 pts/game)
2. C/RW - Nathan MacKinnon
3. C - Sidney Crosby
4. LW/C - Claude Giroux
5. C - Patrice Bergeron
6. LW - Jonathan Huberdeau
7. C - Sean Couturier
8. W - David Perron
9. W - Jonathan Marchessault
10. LW Mike Hoffman (exception, born in Ontario, drafted in OHL, but played majority in QMJHL)
11. RW - Yanni Gourde
12. C - Pierre-Luc Dubois (0.66 pts/game)

Marchand - Crosby - Bergeron
Huberdeau - MacKinnon - Marchessault
Giroux - Couturier - Perron
Hoffman - Dubois - Gourde

***

Team WHL
--------------
1. RW - Mark Stone (1.00 pts/game)
2. C/RW - Brayden Point
3. C/RW - Mathew Barzal
4. C - Ryan Getzlaf
5. C - Jonathan Toews (NCAA route, born in Winnipeg)
6. LW - Jamie Benn
7. LW/C - Ryan Nugent-Hopkins
8. C - Brayden Schenn
9. C - Ryan Johansen
10. LW - Jaden Schwartz (NCAA route, born in Saskachewan)
11. LW - Evander Kane
12. C/RW - Sam Reinhart (0.70 pts/game)

Benn - Getzlaf - Stone
E.Kane - Toews - Barzal
Schwartz - Schenn - Point
RNH - Johansen - Reinhart


These teams going against each other would be 1000x more interesting than any kind of Team Europe, or Half-Switzerland playing against Half-Germany in empty arenas.

It's a North American Tournament in North America. Make it more North-American.

I was wrong about that quebec team being weak. Those Halifax-guys make a total difference. At first I was putting them on non-Ontario/non-Quebec-born teams. That's why that "born-factor started to felt a bit stupid.

For sure, there is a mutual connection with great memories for those junior leagues players represented. I could believe they like to represent a Canadian team which will represent their junior-era league. I think it would be really fun for Canadians.

And I think the CHL-draft or last team you represented in CHL-career is the good decider for your National "region" for a Canadian. And if you didn't play in CHL, then the birthplace.

Only exception for CHL-draft is Hoffman. That would also be a good factor for the Region-decision. But last team represented in CHL (decides the region you belong) is even better.

 

[vorky]

If international scheduling is alien to North America, then fine. It is normal for European league to break their regular-season for international games. Different approach.

For example soccer & basketball are able to accommodate leagues´ & international games into their schedule.

Baseball & football are very unique sports, popular in America, but not Europe. But hockey is popular in both continents like basketball & soccer (including South America). But back to hockey, who is popular in Europe & America, the game of hockey needs one universal international scheduling if hockey wants to develop.

Yes, players can hurt, but they can hurt even when eating their lunch.

 

[JETZZZ]

The World Cup is so meaningless that they shouldn't really call it one at all.

The 2021 Bridgestone Visa World Cup presented by Mountain Dew

 

[jj cale]

It seems like no sides can be pleased or are very helpful, maybe we should think about ditching the olympics and world cup for good and just roll with what we currently have in the WHC and junior tournaments?

 

[JackSlater]

It seems like no sides can be pleased or are very helpful, maybe we should think about ditching the olympics and world cup for good and just roll with what we currently have in the WHC and junior tournaments?

The WJC is fine for junior players, but just having the IIHF world championship and a non-NHL Olympics at the senior level is pretty bad. I don't really care what the IIHF does with the world championship, but the desire for the majority of fans should remain best on best Olympic tournament and World Cup.

 

[jj cale]

The WJC is fine for junior players, but just having the IIHF world championship and a non-NHL Olympics at the senior level is pretty bad. I don't really care what the IIHF does with the world championship, but the desire for the majority of fans should remain best on best Olympic tournament and World Cup.

But it seems it just devolves into a bitching session and something no one can agree on, maybe we should consider just not bothering. North America has the NHL and junior/AHL hockey, Europe has the KHL and it's domestic leagues. There is already plenty of hockey to cover both Europe and North America and who else in the world really cares?

Is that little extra tidbit of the Olympics and World Cup worth it for all the headaches and bickering and discontent? I am starting to come around on gold standards push for a U.S-Canada series maybe every four years. Have Canada and the U.S ditch involvement in the WHC(it is a European tournament anyway really) let them have a European championship every year if they like, ditch the world cup because European fans turn up their nose at it and don't give a rats ass about it as long as it is in North America and NHL run and have the U.S and Canada have a best of seven super series every four years.

I don't think it's a bad idea at this point.

 

[Gold Standard]

But it seems it just devolves into a *****ing session and something no one can agree on, maybe we should consider just not bothering. North America has the NHL and junior/AHL hockey, Europe has the KHL and it's domestic leagues. There is already plenty of hockey to cover both Europe and North America and who else in the world really cares?

Is that little extra tidbit of the Olympics and World Cup worth it for all the headaches and bickering and discontent? I am starting to come around on gold standards push for a U.S-Canada series maybe every four years. Have Canada and the U.S ditch involvement in the WHC(it is a European tournament anyway really) let them have a European championship every year if they like, ditch the world cup because European fans turn up their nose at it and don't give a rats ass about it as long as it is in North America and NHL run and have the U.S and Canada have a best of seven super series every four years.

I don't think it's a bad idea at this point.

Welcome aboard the 2022 Canada v USA Summit Series Border Clash hype train. It's going to happen.

 

[JackSlater]

But it seems it just devolves into a *****ing session and something no one can agree on, maybe we should consider just not bothering. North America has the NHL and junior/AHL hockey, Europe has the KHL and it's domestic leagues. There is already plenty of hockey to cover both Europe and North America and who else in the world really cares?

Is that little extra tidbit of the Olympics and World Cup worth it for all the headaches and bickering and discontent? I am starting to come around on gold standards push for a U.S-Canada series maybe every four years. Have Canada and the U.S ditch involvement in the WHC(it is a European tournament anyway really) let them have a European championship every year if they like, ditch the world cup because European fans turn up their nose at it and don't give a rats ass about it as long as it is in North America and NHL run and have the U.S and Canada have a best of seven super series every four years.

I don't think it's a bad idea at this point.

I don't particularly care about what people here want, as it has no bearing on what actually happens. Discussions between the NHL and the NHLPA are the key here, and I hope that they yield a best on best World Cup as well as a worthwhile best on best Olympic tournament. A Canada-USA series is a far lesser goal and probably isn't possible if there are two best on best tournaments anyway.

 

[jj cale]

I don't particularly care about what people here want, as it has no bearing on what actually happens. Discussions between the NHL and the NHLPA are the key here, and I hope that they yield a best on best World Cup as well as a worthwhile best on best Olympic tournament. A Canada-USA series is a far lesser goal and probably isn't possible if there are two best on best tournaments anyway.

Well, all I can say to everyone here and the players and powers that be that think hockey absolutely needs it and must have it is best of luck, seems like a lot of hurdles to overcome, especially NHL owners who I believe now don't give a rats ass about(at least) olympic participation anymore.