NHL cautiously optimistic about 2021 World Cup.

[HugoSimon]

The World Cup is presented as and supposed to be an international tournament. In addition to being implicit given the name and history of the tournament, Daly and Bettman explicitly call it an international tournament. When you have non-national teams, the tournament ceases to be an international tournament. The tournament had excellent players, there is no question there, but the format was idiotic. You had some national teams competing against some partial national teams competing against some partial continental teams. The young gunz team can exist for the next hundred years and it will remain just as stupid if it remains a mashup of players under a certain age limit from two countries in what is an otherwise international tournament.

So where do you figure the Spengler Cup rates?

For me the World Cup is the perfect North American Equivalent.

You're calling the tournament stupid yet my understanding is that the Spengler is one of the better tournaments in sports.

Hockey is a sport popular with countries that are in the arctic circle and those circling Prague, it is never gonna be like the Fifa world cup.

 

[HugoSimon]

I kinda agree with you, and still think Quebec idea isn't good. This discussion clearly shows, why, btw.

Would it be the same issue if there was a team Ontario?

 

[Kshahdoo]

Would it be the same issue if there was a team Ontario?

To me it's actually the same idea. So both are equally bad by the same reason.

 

[JackSlater]

So where do you figure the Spengler Cup rates?

For me the World Cup is the perfect North American Equivalent.

You're calling the tournament stupid yet my understanding is that the Spengler is one of the better tournaments in sports.

Hockey is a sport popular with countries that are in the arctic circle and those circling Prague, it is never gonna be like the Fifa world cup.

I'm not a fan of the Spengler Cup and I think that the format is kind of silly, mixing domestic teams with a sort of national team. Maybe some would consider it one of the best tournaments in sports but I wouldn't. I don't expect hockey's World Cup to be like soccer's World Cup, and to be honest there are parts of hockey's World Cup that I prefer. The gimmick teams are a non-starter for me though.

I'll say as well, I am not taking a shot at the World Cup in general. There have been editions of the tournament that were perfectly acceptable. The issue is the 2016 tournament and its gimmick teams.

 

[vorky]

The Spengler Cup & the World Cup 2016 may have something in common, so national teams playing non-national teams, but there is one big difference. The Spengler Cup is not promoted as the best-on-best tournament of national teams while the World Cup 2016 was promoted in that way. But actually it was not a tournament of national teams as everybody knows.

 

[HugoSimon]

I'm not a fan of the Spengler Cup and I think that the format is kind of silly, mixing domestic teams with a sort of national team. Maybe some would consider it one of the best tournaments in sports but I wouldn't. I don't expect hockey's World Cup to be like soccer's World Cup, and to be honest there are parts of hockey's World Cup that I prefer. The gimmick teams are a non-starter for me though.

I'll say as well, I am not taking a shot at the World Cup in general. There have been editions of the tournament that were perfectly acceptable. The issue is the 2016 tournament and its gimmick teams.

Why is the Spengler silly?

A hybrid tournament makes a lot of sense logistically speaking.

If it's just the top six of the NHL just going at it what keeps it from being a knockoff olympics?

If the NHL cup can do something that most international competitions can it makes total sense.

I'm not understanding why you're even calling these all star teams gimmicks. All star teams aren't a random thing.

 

[JackSlater]

Why is the Spengler silly?

A hybrid tournament makes a lot of sense logistically speaking.

If it's just the top six of the NHL just going at it what keeps it from being a knockoff olympics?

If the NHL cup can do something that most international competitions can it makes total sense.

I'm not understanding why you're even calling these all star teams gimmicks. All star teams aren't a random thing.

I explained why it is silly directly after the word silly. I am calling them gimmicks because they are gimmicks. The teams were designed to get more attention and money for the NHL and its product, which is essentially the definition of a gimmick.

 

[Jahara]

The World Cup is presented as and supposed to be an international tournament. In addition to being implicit given the name and history of the tournament, Daly and Bettman explicitly call it an international tournament. When you have non-national teams, the tournament ceases to be an international tournament. The tournament had excellent players, there is no question there, but the format was idiotic. You had some national teams competing against some partial national teams competing against some partial continental teams. The young gunz team can exist for the next hundred years and it will remain just as stupid if it remains a mashup of players under a certain age limit from two countries in what is an otherwise international tournament.

Canada Cup was a international tournament and World Cup is the same. The format in 2016 was much better than the one in 2004. Or would prefer a 8 team tournament with dull teams like Germany and Slovakia with a half pointless group stage and every team advancing to the quarterfinals?

Any international tournament arranged by the NHL is ignored by me no matter the teams and format. The world championship helps developing hockey by distributing money to worse hockey federations. The World Cup only helps developing the owner's bank accounts, and if it would start competing with IIHF it would be detrimental to international hockey.

The World Championship is held every year. Guess why? It is because of the money. It is in sporting terms a very irrelevant tournament. But people seem to think it is run for philantropic reasons. Just like the players plays for obscure teams in KHL. It is because of the money, not because they grew up dreaming about ending up in Omsk or Khabarovsk.

 

[JackSlater]

Canada Cup was a international tournament and World Cup is the same. The format in 2016 was much better than the one in 2004. Or would prefer a 8 team tournament with dull teams like Germany and Slovakia with a half pointless group stage and every team advancing to the quarterfinals?

It stopped being international when non-national teams were included. The 2004 format was significantly superior because it was actually an international tournament and national teams could select their best players.

 

[Jahara]

I explained why it is silly directly after the word silly. I am calling them gimmicks because they are gimmicks. The teams were designed to get more attention and money for the NHL and its product, which is essentially the definition of a gimmick.

How much of a gimmick is a team like Vegas Golden Knights then? It is just a team made up out of nowhere situated in a place because of marketing reasons? Isn't that team designed to get more attention and money for the NHL and its product, which is essentially the definition of a gimmick?

 

[JackSlater]

How much of a gimmick is a team like Vegas Golden Knights then? It is just a team made up out of nowhere situated in a place because of marketing reasons? Isn't that team designed to get more attention and money for the NHL and its product, which is essentially the definition of a gimmick?

The Vegas Golden Knights is a team like any other in the NHL. You can declare it a gimmick, but it isn't a gimmick any more than any other NHL team or the league itself is. The NHL's 2016 world cup however created gimmick teams to compete against national teams that already exist, whether the tournament takes place or not, and even hindered some of the actual national teams from selecting all of their players in order to stock one of the gimmick teams. The gimmick teams were idiotic and rendered what could otherwise have been a fine tournament nothing but a mess.

 

[ingenting]

The World Championship is held every year. Guess why? It is because of the money. It is in sporting terms a very irrelevant tournament. But people seem to think it is run for philantropic reasons. Just like the players plays for obscure teams in KHL. It is because of the money, not because they grew up dreaming about ending up in Omsk or Khabarovsk.

One organization aims to use that money to develop the sport of hockey and spread it to new areas. The other organization wants to give that money to team owners and gatekeep hockey. If you can't tell the difference we have nothing to discuss.

 

[Boonk]

How much of a gimmick is a team like Vegas Golden Knights then? It is just a team made up out of nowhere situated in a place because of marketing reasons? Isn't that team designed to get more attention and money for the NHL and its product, which is essentially the definition of a gimmick?

What a dumb argument

 

[Zenos]

Only a tournament organised by international governing body (IIHF or IOC or FIFA or FIBA etc) can be recognised as the international tournament for a sport (hockey, soccer, basketball etc).

I can understand having a problem with "gimmicky" teams or even the invitational (rather than having a qualification system) aspect of the tournament - but to suggest that the WCoH isn't an international tournament because it's not run by the IIHF seems arbitrary at best.

That the governing federations of hockey's top countries agree(d) to the tournament and send/sent their best players available seems to indicate enough legitimacy in my eyes.

 

[Elvs]

Canada Cup was a international tournament and World Cup is the same. The format in 2016 was much better than the one in 2004. Or would prefer a 8 team tournament with dull teams like Germany and Slovakia with a half pointless group stage and every team advancing to the quarterfinals?

Since the year of 2010, excluding the 2018 Olympics which had no NHL'ers participating ...

... Switzerland is 4-2-3 against Canada in Olympic and World Championship compeition.

... Slovakia is 4-2-1 against USA in the same time span.

 

[BOS358]

I can understand having a problem with "gimmicky" teams or even the invitational (rather than having a qualification system) aspect of the tournament - but to suggest that the WCoH isn't an international tournament because it's not run by the IIHF seems arbitrary at best.

That the governing federations of hockey's top countries agree(d) to the tournament and send/sent their best players available seems to indicate enough legitimacy in my eyes.

Except that the world governing body for the sport determines which tournaments are sanctioned and count in world rankings, and are therefore "legitimate"...and strangely, it is not HFBoards, but rather the IIHF.

Also, not to split hairs here, but it wasn't the national federations, but rather the players' employers that decided not to send them to certain events. Minor detail.

 

[Jahara]

What a dumb argument

What is the difference then?

 

[QnebO]

Why do people actually want to see Germany and Slovakia in a World Cup? They lack the edge and can't compete with the big six. Having Team Europe was much more fun than having those minnows filling out spots for the sake of it.

What they should do is returning to the old Canada Cup format with six teams in a round-robin and the best four teams advancing.

It was bs. There was no emotion, no hitting.. No one just cared. Thats what gimmick team does for concept of playing for your country. It Made it feel as important Karjala cup this weekend, at best. Not real thing, win is worth nothing type of thing.

I can see swiss and danes or slovaks being in. If not then play with 6 teams, and two best point collectors play final

If gimmicks are in, we should ice Liiga team plus mörkömarko. Otherwise its bs.

 

[ijuka]

2021, huh? So same season as Olympics. Here's a thought, as the World Cup would make the players start earlier as well as delaying the season anyway, how about just starting the season earlier and letting the players play in Olympics instead?

Why do people actually want to see Germany and Slovakia in a World Cup? They lack the edge and can't compete with the big six. Having Team Europe was much more fun than having those minnows filling out spots for the sake of it.

Nationalism is a foreign concept?

If I want to watch teams be competitive with no national pride on the line, I just watch NHL.

 

[Boonk]

What is the difference then?

One team is an expansion team that plays in the NHL, the other is a gimmick all star team being put in an " international tournament".

Its not even remotely the same thing. Stop comparing them to try and give your already disproven arguments legitimacy.

 

[Jahara]

It was bs. There was no emotion, no hitting.. No one just cared. Thats what gimmick team does for concept of playing for your country. It Made it feel as important Karjala cup this weekend, at best. Not real thing, win is worth nothing type of thing.

I can see swiss and danes or slovaks being in. If not then play with 6 teams, and two best point collectors play final

If gimmicks are in, we should ice Liiga team plus mörkömarko. Otherwise its bs.

Do you think it would have been much more emotion and hitting if Germany and Slovakia would have been there instead? I am sorry for the people who didn't care since they missed some good hockey.

One team is an expansion team that plays in the NHL, the other is a gimmick all star team being put in an " international tournament".

Its not even remotely the same thing. Stop comparing them to try and give your already disproven arguments legitimacy.

Expansion teams is something of a gimmick too if you have a traditionalist view of these things. I have mentioned Ryder Cup/Solheim Cup in golf before and doubt that the golf world is branding Team Europe a gimmick.

 

[Boonk]

Do you think it would have been much more emotion and hitting if Germany and Slovakia would have been there instead? I am sorry for the people who didn't care since they missed some good hockey.


Expansion teams is something of a gimmick too if you have a traditionalist view of these things. I have mentioned Ryder Cup/Solheim Cup in golf before and doubt that the golf world is branding Team Europe a gimmick.

Are you dense? In no way is an expansion team a gimmick. Vegas plays against other NHL teams, on an NHL schedule, in the NHL. "Team Europe" is a gimmick all star that played in an event passed off as an "international tournament". Team Europe didnt have to abide by NHL salary cap restrictions, Vegas does. Vegas has to qualify for the playoffs the same way every team has to, it was very annoying seeing them go to the finals in their first year of existence but that doesnt make them a gimmick. They rightfully earned their spot in that final.

You may as well consider every NHL team outside of the Original 6 teams gimmick teams since they were expansion teams. What a stupid argument.

 

[QnebO]

Expansion teams aint gimmick. Absolutely 100% not comparable.

 

[wetcoast]

Since the year of 2010, excluding the 2018 Olympics which had no NHL'ers participating ...

... Switzerland is 4-2-3 against Canada in Olympic and World Championship compeition.

... Slovakia is 4-2-1 against USA in the same time span.

But seriously no one expects either Switzerland or Slovakia to fare very well in a complete best on best tournament do they?

 

[HugoSimon]

One team is an expansion team that plays in the NHL, the other is a gimmick all star team being put in an " international tournament".

Ah so a tournament where people represent their region of the world is a gimmick, and a team where not 1 player grew up in Nevada is perfectly rational?

Its not even remotely the same thing. Stop comparing them to try and give your already disproven arguments legitimacy.

So having most of the worlds best hockey players isn't international enough? This is the part of the argument that makes absolutely no sense. It's not like half of the worlds best players are in the KHL. Not having NHL players in the Olympics makes it far less representative of the worlds best than the WC.

I want to see the best of the best. I want to see the best players from Ontario against the best players from Quebec/Minnesota.

Your argument is entirely based on the premise that all hockey fans are on equal terms with respect to purist nationalism.

A mixed tournament makes sense if it is to present a competition with the best of the best.

There is nothing arbitrary about being from Europe. At best I could concede that making it a EU team might make slightly more sense but that is splitting hairs. In addition it might make sense if they wore some sort of hybrid Jersey where it was more obvious which region a player was from. Maybe call them the spartans or something that has it own mythos beyond the continent.

The problem with Team Europe is a lack of history and tradition not that it is based on a gimmick.

New traditions take time to build, as long as the tournament stays best of the best it is a true world cup.

The biggest mistake the NHL could make is to retcon an existing team. History takes time to build.