Timo Meier was a 40G scoring in SJ and look how that changed! I'm not saying you're wrong but I have seen this movie already and Im not a fan. Now his cap hit is less so great, but I think we traded some magic beans for TM. Mercer and Nemec are not that. I'd argue that the depth scorimg is the bigger issue. Yes we miss a Tyler Toffoli but a third of the 3rd line and the entire bottom of the forward lineup is barren with scoring! Thats not getting changed in season, Fitz doesnt work lieke that. He made all thes moves this past summer, so I dont think he wastes the year. I think he adds an RFA or a couple of UFAs he can resign to repalce Bastian/Tatar/Lazar/Dowling etc. They also have a guy or two coming which may help, but its going to be a Donato/Evans/Frederic kind of TDL IMO.
Proposal: New Jersey - Seattle
- Thread starter Stephen Gionta
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Fistfullofbeer
Moderator
Timo Meir was part of a team that was much better than what the Kraken have ever been. Back then they had a very effective Couture, Hertl in his prime, Pavelski and Burns still very effective and producing at a high level. They also had Erik Karlsson.
It is far from a fair comparison.
Just want to clarify
22-23 Kraken: 46-28-8
22-23 Sharks: 22-44-16
And the argument you're making is that the sharks were "much better"?
Fistfullofbeer
Moderator
It is convenient to look at one season and also ignore the team makeup. Meier has played on Sharks teams which have had much more skilled players than the Kraken ever have. Seasons in which Meier has had 30 or higher goals:
2018-19
Brent Burns D 82 16 67 83
Tomas Herti C 77 35 39 74
Logan Couture C 81 27 43 70
Timo Meier R 78 30 36 66
Joe Pavelski C 75 38 26 64
2022-23
Erik Karlsson D 82 25 76 101
Logan Couture 82 27 40 67
Tomas Herti 79 22 41 63
Timo Meier R 57 31 21 52
Even the 2023-24 season where Meier had 28 goals with the Devils.
Jesper Bratt L 82 27 56 83
Jack Hughes 62 27 47 74
Nico Hischier C 71 27 40 67
Timo Meier R 69 28 24 52
Compare that to how many skilled players the Kraken have had. The only season where Meier led the Sharks in points was 2021-22. That was the season where there was no Pavelski, Karlsson only played 50 games, Thornton was done, Burns had started to show his age. Compare that to McCann, who has led the Kraken in points every season.
Ofcourse, this does not guarantee that McCann will hit 40 or even 30 goals on the Devils. There is no guarantee that can be given about any player changing team (eg: Rantanen). But you need to do more than just look at one season.
You're right. We do need to look at more than 1 year.
Meier has put up more goals per game than McCann in 8 of their 9 years in the league together.
The only exception is a year where timo shot 7.7% and McCann shot 15.1%
Outside of that 1 year where he shot 19%, McCann has never hit 30 goals. And even in that year, Meier also put up 40 goals on a VASTLY worse team.
Going from number 1 option and on PP1 being fed to being the 3rd wheel on a line is not a production helper (especially for goals). There is only 1 puck, and only so many opportunities.
It's also overall a weird and weak excuse to blame team.
Meier was on the playoff teams in SJS when he was 19-23 years old. He then was on very bad sharks teams after that putting up excellent production.
McCann also spent his early career on playoff teams in Fla and Pitt. His production spiked when he was the number 1 being fed touches.
Since then he has been on 1 playoff team. Meier has also been on 1 playoff team (this year)
And your conclusion is that McCann's production would benefit from being buried on better teams again?
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Fistfullofbeer
Moderator
My conclusion is nothing. You are the one making conclusions here. All I am saying is that McCann has been a good producer on bad teams with a poor support cast. You are comparing him to Timo Meier who played under different circumstances and on teams with much more talent.
I said this before, but will do so again. There is no guarantee McCann hits 40, or even 30 goals on the Devils. But there is also a chance that he benefits from the superior teammates and does much better.
Also, you keep saying "buried". Why would he be buried? If the idea is to give him 3rd line minutes and no PP time, that would impact the production of any player, not just McCann. If that is how they plan to use him and value him, then sure, there is not much point in trading for him.
If NJ traded for McCann the likely plan would be to have him play with Bratt and Hughes at even strength and push someone off PP2. Would it work? Who knows. Chemistry is a funny thing. NJ wanted Meier to play with Hischier and they ended up moving Meier to his own line.
De Montreal
help
Timo Meier did not play on good teams at the end of his time in SJS (putting up elite numbers
Those SJS teams were legitimately awful, and you're lying to yourself about them.
The 21-22 team was not good. Neither was the 22-23 team.
the 22-23 kraken were top 5 in the league in scoring.
He would not hit 40.
He would not play on PP1. I have gone over this extensively.
A 3rd winger on a line with 2 better forwards has limited impact (see Toffoli on the jack/bratt line, or even Meier himself). There's a reason most teams split their players across lines with generally 2 studs+complimentary player. If he even improves the line at all (as seen with Toffoli, Meier, Haula, Yegor, Palat, changing the 3rd winger hasn't meaningfully impacted the success of the Jack-Bratt line, accross a variety of talent and roles).
Either you play him as a complimentary player on line 1 or a driver on line 3.
I agree, it makes no sense to pay star PP1 prices when the roles you have available are line 3 driver and line 1 complimentary piece
My point was TM then and now, not so much the Kraken. Your points are all valid. I just think what needs addressing is the depth at this point. McCann type adds are an off season thing for our GM
Dead Coyote
Registered User
- Oct 10, 2017
- 3,009
- 3,534
Nah i'm sorry don't give him that kind of credit.
They both had 1 40 goal season.
Timo did it on a team that won 22 games.
McCann on a team that won 46 games.
Claiming Meier was "part of a much better team" is complete and utter bullshit.
Fistfullofbeer
Moderator
I can certainly agree with that. I just don't understand the point being made (not by you) about being on a worse team solely on the the teams points total. The quality of teammates makes a big difference and while I have stated that it does not guarantee and uptick in production, it is asinine to assume that it has no impact on it.
But yes, if you need a depth player or a player who is more of a playoff performer, then McCann may not be the best option since he has not really been utilized in that role. Doesn't mean he won't be able to do so, but at what he will cost, a team should rightfully be concerned about making that "gamble".
Meier played with Hertl at C. nothing special there.
Here were his most common linemate wingers that year in SJS:
Those wingers are GARBAGE
Barabanov, Labanc, Eyssimont, Gregor, Bonino.
Unless I woke up one day and Hertl and Couture were suddenly McDavid and Draisaitl. They are decent Cs, certainly not anything special
And sure, you had Karlsson. But you forget there are 5 other dmen on the team. And every single one of them was literal GARBAGE in SJS.
Beniers+Eberle>>Hertl+SCRUBs
Those Dunn+5 actual competent NHL dmen>> Karlsson+SCRUBS
I can't even believe you tried to make this claim
