It's really nauseating to continually hear the idiotic bashing of the defenseman on this team. This fan base has been so spoiled by their defenseman that they have no clue what really bad defenseman look like. Try looking at the Devils, Islanders, Maple Leafs, etc... Then you will know what bad defenseman are. Staal and Pionk have been pretty solid all year. Pionk is playing 25 minutes a night. Is going up against the best lines every night in a rebuilding year. He has 8 points and is a -4. He's essentially a freakin rookie. Yet, people complain. Unbelievable.
Player Discussion Neal Pionk: Part II
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Inferno
Registered User
That was ssuuuuccchhhh a sexy goal.
Yeah I kind of agree.
Like is his metrics bad and does it show room for improvement? I think so. And @Machinehead and a few others deserve credit for pointing that out early.
But I definitely don’t think it’s any irreparable stuff or that it’s — as bad — as some make it out to be. This is a rookie playing way over 20 minutes a night, severaltimes up towards 25-26 minutes, against the best opponents and on a ranking team. Give him some handicap when looking at the metrics.
And (1) he undoubtedly has some sick plays in him, and (2) he handles the defensive game really really well for someone his size — IN SOME AREAS. He is very good at staying with his guy and so forth.
He needs to pick his spots better. Speed up most plays, maybe defend the blueline better, and then dangle higher up ice.
Very very good UDFA signing!!!
Blue Blooded
Most people rejected his message
Pionk definitely has talent and potential, and he has created two goals for the team out of nothing in impressive fashion so far this year.
But that doesn't change the fact he is the player that currently has the largest negative impact on the team right now, especially because he plays so many minutes. And not only are his on-ice impacts awful in all situations (ES, PP, PK), but they're somehow significantly worse than last year when we were up in arms about how bad they were. And for each big offensive play that has led to a goal this season, there has been more than one big gaffe that has led to one against.
He needs a smaller role 5v5 with someone other than Staal (Smith or Claesson), to be taken off the PP1 and I would honestly try one of Shattenkirk/DeAngelo over him on the PK where he has been horrible this year.
darko
Registered User
- Feb 16, 2009
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The S5
Registered User
- Jul 27, 2017
- 4,473
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Yep, I remember when this board bashed McDonagh and said Girardi was the worst D man in the NHL. Looks like its Pionk's turn.
Good times.
Good times.
No. Plus/minus is always a debatable stat because your partner or line could be the one screwing up. Or your goalie. However, for a young player with 40 NHL games playing 25 minutes a night vs. the best lines, a -4 is not that shabby on a rebuilding team. So in 15 games, he's holding his own with little NHL experience. Yet, the so called professional scouts on the board bash him. Nothing new around here. The offense has gotten a pass for over 10 years on this board. The defenseman and Hank continually get trashed.
Girardi clearly lost some steps but Av's system was awful for defenseman. Especially older vets who couldn't skate that well. However, Av was on his way to ruining Skjei as well. Thank God he is outta here.
As far as metrics go. They are a complete waste of time. Just like WAR in baseball. Just watch the game and throw out these deeper stats. Simplify it. Are you on the ice for more goals then you are against. Then factor in how many minutes they guy plays and what lines he is facing. If Pionk plays 82 games, 25 minutes a night against the top lines and ends up with 40 points and is a -10, I'll be thrilled. That's a huge win for the team. It's up to the other lines and pairings to out play the other teams 2nd, 3rd and 4th lines.
Your Eye test is the worst i've ever encountered.
He's playing 25 minutes because we don't have really have a ton of other options. Coaches are way more in tune as to the capabilities of their players and obviously Quinn trusts Pionk playing the big minutes over guys like Staal or Shatty. It's not very complicated.
Either that or he sees him as a huge part of the future and is willing to live with his mistakes if it means he will grow quicker.
Either that or he sees him as a huge part of the future and is willing to live with his mistakes if it means he will grow quicker.
redwhiteandblue
Registered User
- Apr 1, 2013
- 1,112
- 1,032
Remember when Leetch used to rush the puck like that every single time? Lol man I miss that. That goal had shades of Leetch in it, it was beautiful.
Him and ADA had a hell of a game last night.
Him and ADA had a hell of a game last night.
Blue Blooded
Most people rejected his message
Even if you accept the premise of the post, I have a bit higher expectations than that.
Another reason metrics are useless is because they don't take into account the competition you are playing against. If a defenseman plays on the top line, he's facing the most talented players on the other team. Those players with great skill are going to possess the puck more. It's how you defend those players and make sure they don't do anything when they have the puck for a long time. A guy who is the 6th defenseman could be facing other teams crap players and look like a star with puck possession. Sports has entirely too many stat geeks who don't understand what they are watching. The elite defenseman in the game play 25 minutes a night. Pionk is playing 25 minutes a night. I'm quite sure our coach knows more than any poster on this board about his players. If he's playing him that much, it's not because he stinks. Yes, we do have other options. Your GM payed Shattenkirk a ton of money to be that guy. Quinn likes Pionk more. Your GM payed Skjei a ton of money. Quinn likes Pionk more. I suggest you spend more time ripping Buchnevich who blows than Pionk who is playing excellent hockey.
There are many metrics that take into account quality of competition. And they're not new, either. Please don't make me defend metrics.
Yeah but let’s not pretend that they even remotely consider all relevant factors.
If you face the top line on the other team the worst shifts, you end up defending more often than not and 2-3 long shifts were you are pushed back can destroy any corsi rating. Right?
The stats count all shifts the same. Someone getting the odd shift here and there aren’t hit by those shifts that 4/5 times are real killers (like you are up a goal with a minute left, really, how often does the team ahead spend har last shift putting pucks on the net in the attacking zone?). Quinn is a big metric guy — why does he not only dress Pionk, but give him those shifts?
The reason is very obvious, if you scratch a little on the surface you get a different result. Obviously.
Just look at McQuaids corsi when Pionk was scratched. 29 and 32% CF. Without him, close to 50%? If McQuaid is healthy and Pionk goes down, does anyone think that McQ would ice games with CF close to 50% getting those shifts? Lol
But there are also many metrics that make someone out to be much better or worse than what they really are.
Regarding Pionk, given his usage, I am not sure that the metrics would give a true level of where he is as a player.
Without getting too far into this, because I don't want to turn it into an "advanced" stats debate--yes, I totally agree. I am not much of a fan of the advanced stats we have at our disposal in hockey; I am a HUGE fan of them in baseball where I find they're far more relevant and illustrative. For a long time, Corsi (or even Fenwick) was the closest proxy we had to possession numbers. I always thought that was junk. It's gotten better with measuring high-danger scoring chances (somewhat subjective) and incorporating quality of competition and your numbers relative to your teammates and all that, but I still don't really rely on those numbers to define a player. I do believe, however, that NHL front offices with analytics departments have better ways of measuring performance than what we have at our disposal. Pionk might be a guy that grades out better with whatever the Rangers are using than whatever numbers the public is using. That's just speculation, though.
ponytrekker
Registered User
- Mar 28, 2013
- 1,316
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Edge
Kris King's Ghost
Putting aside his flaws and where some of his project him long-term, Pionk has scored at roughly a 6 goal, 44 point pace to this point in his career --- including a 12 goal, 49 point pace this season.
I mean, let's be honest, that's not exactly something that should be easily dismissed or taken for granted.
ADA has less road behind him to this point, but is also on a 50 point pace at the moment.
Yes, things change. And yes they are going to hit rough patches. But in our quest to find young, franchise players I think we do need to acknowledge kids who are at least showing that they have a shot to be good NHL players for us.
We spend so much time talking about what our young players aren't, that we don't really ever talk about what they actually are.
I mean, let's be honest, that's not exactly something that should be easily dismissed or taken for granted.
ADA has less road behind him to this point, but is also on a 50 point pace at the moment.
Yes, things change. And yes they are going to hit rough patches. But in our quest to find young, franchise players I think we do need to acknowledge kids who are at least showing that they have a shot to be good NHL players for us.
We spend so much time talking about what our young players aren't, that we don't really ever talk about what they actually are.
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Damn you kids today with your math and trying to learn new stuff. Back in my day, we would flip a coin to see who was better. Get off my lawn!
Oscar Lindberg
Registered User
Get this kid away from Staal and work on his fundamentals with Greg Brown, I think he could get better on the defensive side.
He does dumb stuff now with the puck in their end, but I think that can be coached out of him.
He's got all the other tools to be a top 4 guy in this league for a very long time.
He does dumb stuff now with the puck in their end, but I think that can be coached out of him.
He's got all the other tools to be a top 4 guy in this league for a very long time.
The Crypto Guy
Registered User
- Jun 26, 2017
- 29,205
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There is litterly just one post in here that said he hasnt played well. Dude relax, take your meds.
