Series Talk: Nazzy

[Gary Nylund]

Dubas gets paid the big bucks to make the right decisions and he has made very few of them. The talent he has been riding was acquired before his reign of terror started and he has been bleeding picks with little to show for it since. He improved the defense, so I'll give him credit for that. Can you think of another player who is as awful a skater as John Tavares that you would be willing to give an $11 million contract to? Skating is a fundamental part of the game.

Like I said, 99% of the people here were hoping JT would sign here and were jubilant when it happened.

I just had a quick look at the "bleeding" picks thing. Just looking at top 3 rounds for next 3 years, here's how we stack up against some other top teams.

We have three 1st round picks, one 2nd and one 3rd.
TB has one 1st round pick, one 2nd and two 3rd.
COL has two 1st round picks and two 3rd.
FLA has one 2nd round pick, yup that is all.
CAR has two 1st round picks, three 2nd and three 3rd.
BOS has two 1st round picks, one 2nd and two 3rd.

So from this list, we're the only team with three 1st round picks in the next three years. The only team you could argue is in better shape than we are (at least based on the first 3 rounds) is Carolina and we're in much better shape than all the other teams. Feel free to do a similar analysis on prospect pools, I think you'll find that overall we're doing pretty well.

 

[Once]

Ecstatic for Naz! Each of these former leafs winning hurts a little more every time - still so happy to see a player that we watched every night for a decade hoist the best trophy in pro sports.

Also, I didn't interpret Kadri's comments as purely directed at Leafs management. I interpreted it as directed at the media in general. Still hilarious with big grin on his face

 

[socko]

Like I said, 99% of the people here were hoping JT would sign here and were jubilant when it happened.

I just had a quick look at the "bleeding" picks thing. Just looking at top 3 rounds for next 3 years, here's how we stack up against some other top teams.

We have three 1st round picks, one 2nd and one 3rd.
TB has one 1st round pick, one 2nd and two 3rd.
COL has two 1st round picks and two 3rd.
FLA has one 2nd round pick, yup that is all.
CAR has two 1st round picks, three 2nd and three 3rd.
BOS has two 1st round picks, one 2nd and two 3rd.

So from this list, we're the only team with three 1st round picks in the next three years. The only team you could argue is in better shape than we are (at least based on the first 3 rounds) is Carolina and we're in much better shape than all the other teams. Feel free to do a similar analysis on prospect pools, I think you'll find that overall we're doing pretty well.

Tampa has been throwing away draft picks for a few years now without getting much in return, but they can dry their eyes with the towels they keep in the Cup. I don't follow the other teams as close as Tampa.

I don't know what else you call the Marleau and Foligno trades, other than charity. We can easily keep Marleau for his last year without the Tavares mistake. Foligno had a broken back and was an aging role player, just frightening incompetence on this one.

 

[notbias]

The only thing questionable about the 3rd suspension was the length. It wasn’t as malicious as the two in Toronto, he got suspended off reputation for that one. What was he supposed to do let the guy walk into the slot? He missed time the hit but he wasn’t trying to go for the head.

Secondly he didn’t run the goalie, it’s a loose puck and he was pushed into binnington. Binnington throwing a water bottle at him is the biggest bitch move I’ve ever seen in pro sports.

Kadri is the exact player you need to win. Washington had a carbon copy in Wilson, Boston had theirs in Marchand and Lucic, many other teams had their guys too. Like it or not if you wanna play “clean” chances are you’re not going to win. You have to be okay with playing a little bit on the line to give yourself an advantage. So save us all the morality act, no one gives a shit lmao

You just said he plays on the edge, you spent 3 paragraphs arguing against me, but ended up agreeing with me. Playing on the line is fine, he has crossed it multiple times, thus making him a liability, players who play on the line but don't cross it are definitely welcomed.

People pretending like Kadri was the difference-maker for the cup is hilarious, they would have won year one if he was, instead a large portion of their fanbase blames him for costing them some games. Kadri was 2-2 against the only good team they played, Colorado was 2-0 before he came back, they are lucky he came back so they could win.

Every year there is some new "you need this kind of player to win", point out all the Kadri-like players for the past winners, Marchand won in 2011, Wilson in 2018.

 

[TorMapleJays]

You just said he plays on the edge, you spent 3 paragraphs arguing against me, but ended up agreeing with me. Playing on the line is fine, he has crossed it multiple times, thus making him a liability, players who play on the line but don't cross it are definitely welcomed.

People pretending like Kadri was the difference-maker for the cup is hilarious, they would have won year one if he was, instead a large portion of their fanbase blames him for costing them some games. Kadri was 2-2 against the only good team they played, Colorado was 2-0 before he came back, they are lucky he came back so they could win.

Every year there is some new "you need this kind of player to win", point out all the Kadri-like players for the past winners, Marchand won in 2011, Wilson in 2018.

His Hatty vs St. Louis was good, so was him scoring the OT winner with one hand.

 

[francis246]

Most players who stick up for their teammates seem to be able to do it without getting suspended. It's too bad Kadri's a hothead but that's the way it is.


If 99% of Leaf fans weren't jumping for joy when Tavares chose to sign with us, I could consider criticizing Dubas for the Tavares signing. As is is though, I just can't do it. And remember, Kadri was still here when we signed JT and had he not gotten suspended again, we might have beaten Boston and then he probably doesn't get traded. He did it to himself, there's no two ways about it.


I think there's several things you could point to whenever you lose and Kadri was a big part of why we lost both those series against Boston is what I would say. Maybe not "the reason", but right near the top of the list of reasons both times. He was my favourite player but after getting suspended twice, I had no problem trading him. Two years in a row, his inability to control his emotions left us with a huge hole in our lineup in the playoffs and keeping him would have been very risky. It's funny, after the 1st time people were saying no way he'll do it again, he's learned his lesson. Then he went and did it again. After the 2nd time, there were still a few people saying he's learned his lesson (though not many), then he went and did it again with Colorado and at that point, almost nobody was complaining that we traded him. Now everyone's changed their mind and the new narrative isn't that Kadri can't control his temper, it's that Dubas is an idiot. Whichever way the wind blows, there goes Leaf nation.

There are a number of decisions Dubas has made that are questionable, trading Kadri isn't one of them. But we're at the point where no matter what happens in the NHL, people will spin it into a way to shit on our GM. I guess it's understandable that after so many 1st round losses some people lose the ability to think rationally, I guess I underestimated just how many people fell into that category.

I’ve been consistent and I can speak for myself at first when the trade broke I was excited and even in the trade thread I said on paper this is a really good deal for that. But I started having second thoughts as soon as the summer went on before the season started. I just felt like we traded an great asset on a great contract for not much. Wasn’t even about the return. I think the return was fair. But it’s just Kadri I think if they wanted to trade him they should have waited another year.

I know you believe that he should have been traded. I can see that point. But it really doesn’t change the fact that this was Dubas’ worst trade or maybe second worse. The Malgin for Marchment trade bothers me the most. The Kadri trade was very reactionary and I think I personally would have liked to see them take their time with it and craft a better deal but oh well

 

[francis246]

You just said he plays on the edge, you spent 3 paragraphs arguing against me, but ended up agreeing with me. Playing on the line is fine, he has crossed it multiple times, thus making him a liability, players who play on the line but don't cross it are definitely welcomed.

People pretending like Kadri was the difference-maker for the cup is hilarious, they would have won year one if he was, instead a large portion of their fanbase blames him for costing them some games. Kadri was 2-2 against the only good team they played, Colorado was 2-0 before he came back, they are lucky he came back so they could win.

Every year there is some new "you need this kind of player to win", point out all the Kadri-like players for the past winners, Marchand won in 2011, Wilson in 2018.

I have no problems with him toeing the line or crossing it. That’s the problem with a lot of you on here. You want a team full of p***yes, ima be blunt. You need dirty players or players who are willing to play that role. Is it morally shit, probably but it’s the way sports work. If there was a camera that could catch everything you’d see a lot of players doing the worst to give themselves an advantage so I don’t really care what you have to say in that regard. A lot of players do, Kadri is just one of the guys who gets caught. LOL Kadri was a big part of the Avs win. Without his regular season performance the Avs aren’t in the position to go into the playoffs as the favourite. He stepped up huge for them with MacKinnon out.

 

[Transplanted Caper]

Happy for Naz. A huge weight off his shoulders. As much as he earned that redemption arc, he HAD been a liability in the playoffs. Leafs would obviously like that trade back - even if using Naz as a trade chip that summer made sense they didn't get the value they needed from it (apologies to Kerf). I tried to talk myself into Barrie, but interesting that there was some pushback at the time - including from a guy like Mirtle who can usually talk himself into Dubas' philosophy and thinking.

 

[frog]

Without kadri avs wouldnt have beat st louis in 2nd round, his hattrick in the most important game was legendary... Then his overtime goal the game after breaking his hand. It was unbeleivable... He is the definition of a a playoff player

 

[hotpaws]

First of all Seth Jarvis is not a Center.

Second of all please don’t be delusional. Amirov and Jarvis were two picks apart. The leafs even if they kept their original pick were more than likely taking Amirov. If Jarvis was their guy they would have made another trade with Carolina to swap picks. Or tried to trade up

they did try to trade up

 

[notbias]

I have no problems with him toeing the line or crossing it. That’s the problem with a lot of you on here. You want a team full of p***yes, ima be blunt. You need dirty players or players who are willing to play that role. Is it morally shit, probably but it’s the way sports work. If there was a camera that could catch everything you’d see a lot of players doing the worst to give themselves an advantage so I don’t really care what you have to say in that regard. A lot of players do, Kadri is just one of the guys who gets caught. LOL Kadri was a big part of the Avs win. Without his regular season performance the Avs aren’t in the position to go into the playoffs as the favourite. He stepped up huge for them with MacKinnon out.

do you mind just pointing out those players for Tampa, St Louis, Pens, Chicago, LA?

You mentioned two other teams with players who toe the line.

Also, this is the first year we went in with a tougher team than the opposition, and this was the most strictly called series I've seen until game 6/7, just odd timing for them to start calling everything.

 

[barilko05]

I have no problems with him toeing the line or crossing it. That’s the problem with a lot of you on here. You want a team full of p***yes, ima be blunt. You need dirty players or players who are willing to play that role. Is it morally shit, probably but it’s the way sports work. If there was a camera that could catch everything you’d see a lot of players doing the worst to give themselves an advantage so I don’t really care what you have to say in that regard. A lot of players do, Kadri is just one of the guys who gets caught. LOL Kadri was a big part of the Avs win. Without his regular season performance the Avs aren’t in the position to go into the playoffs as the favourite. He stepped up huge for them with MacKinnon out.

You don't get it do you? This team CAN'T have dirty players. We're under the League microscope 24/7. We're not Florida or San Jose...teams the league doesn't give two shits about. Or Boston...who seem to have a "get out of jail free" card whenever it suits their purpose. We try to play a hard game...our players gets suspended. Time and time again. Kadri, Matthews, Simmonds, Clifford, etc etc. Anytime we take a stand against some bullshit, we're the ones who get penalized. So what do we do? We follow Colorado's lead. We get faster, more elusive, and pile up the goals. It might be the only way.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Tampa has been throwing away draft picks for a few years now without getting much in return, but they can dry their eyes with the towels they keep in the Cup. I don't follow the other teams as close as Tampa.

I don't know what else you call the Marleau and Foligno trades, other than charity. We can easily keep Marleau for his last year without the Tavares mistake. Foligno had a broken back and was an aging role player, just frightening incompetence on this one.

We could have kept Marleau, not "easily" like you say though. Keep Marleau, and we lose something else but whatever, this has been analyzed to death already.

I didn't like the Foligno trade but more people here seemed happy with it at the time so whatever.

Again, I can't agree with calling the Tavares signing a mistake considering how almost everyone thought it was a HUGE win at the time. It was as close to a no-brainer as it gets and calling it a mistake with the benefit of hindsight and after covid making this look a lot worse than it otherwise would have ... you go ahead if you like but IMHO, it's just doesn't make sense.

But back to "bleeding picks" which is where this started, I hate rentals myself but every year at the TDL, most people here are telling us we need to go allin because that's just what you do when you have a chance to go for it. I didn't like the Foligno trade and I am disappointed that Dubas made that move after telling the world that he's not a fan of rentals but still, it seems that all the other contenders have spent more than we have so as far as futures go, we're better off than almost all of them. So yeah, doesn't seem like a valid point of criticism to me.

I’ve been consistent and I can speak for myself at first when the trade broke I was excited and even in the trade thread I said on paper this is a really good deal for that. But I started having second thoughts as soon as the summer went on before the season started. I just felt like we traded an great asset on a great contract for not much. Wasn’t even about the return. I think the return was fair. But it’s just Kadri I think if they wanted to trade him they should have waited another year.

I know you believe that he should have been traded. I can see that point. But it really doesn’t change the fact that this was Dubas’ worst trade or maybe second worse. The Malgin for Marchment trade bothers me the most. The Kadri trade was very reactionary and I think I personally would have liked to see them take their time with it and craft a better deal but oh well

Hard for me to agree with giving Kadri "one more year". After the first playoff suspension sure, but the second one was just too much.

Every GM makes some good trades and some bad ones. Dubas has mostly made good trades IMO and if Marchment was one of his biggest mistakes then that only goes to back me up on that point. Hardly anyone cared at the time, Marchment's stock has gone way up since that time so good for him but can't blame Dubas for not being able to see that coming.

 

[barilko05]

they did try to trade up

I think we we're hoping the Russian goalie (Askarov?) was gonna drop. He didn't so we went for the next BPA. End of story.

 

[hotpaws]

I'm wondering would Kadri take a hometown discount, and all is forgiven? Maybe Dubas might need to kiss his aas first, to get the deal done. Go ahead Dubas, your best shot for a cup, heart and soul player. Who else do you have? I thought so, I can't think of one!

I doubt he'll come home to play for the 2m we can afford to give him

 

[socko]

A good number of fans want to be positive most of the time, and you seem like the type that pushes for that thing, so saying they react positively when the playoffs are about to begin, and that rubber stamps the move, just seems illogical. Dubas, as the boss, must remove emotion from his decisions and make wise decisions. I don't think he has done this well. And I'm not always against rentals. It's about making good decisions, building for now and the future, not overpaying for something and getting taken to the cleaners. Like, for example, I loved when we picked up Galchenyuk, didn't pay too much, and he was a good piece for the little while we had him.

 

[TorMapleJays]

I didn’t / don’t mind Tavares and will not blame Dubas for that. Everything else though.

 

[killer1980]

Revisionist bullshit.

Kadri needed to prove to Kadri that he was no longer a liability in the playoffs. At the time he wore blue and white, he was. And there was no indication that he could get his emotions in check and we needed help on defense.

At the time, the deal made sense. And correct me if I'm wrong, but Kadri did get suspended yet again in his stint with Colorado...what? Last season?

If someone steals and you call them a thief, that's what they are and what they did at the time. If they STOP stealing, they can't declare "see! I am not a thief!"

That's not how reality works.

And I say that being very happy that Kadri got over himself and succeeded and won the cup. But none of this changes how he was HERE at a time when we needed him.

I believe that guys like Kadri are needed on any team in order to succeed. It is the mark of a real executive to be able to control and direct that enthusiasm. The one thing you never want to do is dampen that passision. You want to channel it in the proper direction.Maybe, just maybe, Colorado has been able to do that with Kadri.

 

[francis246]

We could have kept Marleau, not "easily" like you say though. Keep Marleau, and we lose something else but whatever, this has been analyzed to death already.

I didn't like the Foligno trade but more people here seemed happy with it at the time so whatever.

Again, I can't agree with calling the Tavares signing a mistake considering how almost everyone thought it was a HUGE win at the time. It was as close to a no-brainer as it gets and calling it a mistake with the benefit of hindsight and after covid making this look a lot worse than it otherwise would have ... you go ahead if you like but IMHO, it's just doesn't make sense.

But back to "bleeding picks" which is where this started, I hate rentals myself but every year at the TDL, most people here are telling us we need to go allin because that's just what you do when you have a chance to go for it. I didn't like the Foligno trade and I am disappointed that Dubas made that move after telling the world that he's not a fan of rentals but still, it seems that all the other contenders have spent more than we have so as far as futures go, we're better off than almost all of them. So yeah, doesn't seem like a valid point of criticism to me.


Hard for me to agree with giving Kadri "one more year". After the first playoff suspension sure, but the second one was just too much.

Every GM makes some good trades and some bad ones. Dubas has mostly made good trades IMO and if Marchment was one of his biggest mistakes then that only goes to back me up on that point. Hardly anyone cared at the time, Marchment's stock has gone way up since that time so good for him but can't blame Dubas for not being able to see that coming.

I agree but the common denominator for those trades is Dubas making rash decisions and maybe not seeing players for their potential. Not allowing things to progress a bit. I don’t think there is a right of wrong in this situation. Some people think Dubas was right for trading him and we had to do it, but the end result hasn’t really changed since the trade so you can only blame Kadri so much. Others think we should have kept him but there’s no way to know if he doesn’t continue to be a bit reckless.

Dubas has done a good job but i think something he can take away from this Toronto experience is to give players time. I like Dubas btw.

 

[Willchel Marlynder]

It wasn’t working here though. Horrible return for him no doubt but he didn’t fit in on a team of marshmallows. That was never going to work here.

Well a team of Marshmallows is never going to win a damn thing in the league so maybe instead of trading the player you win a cup with, you trade the marshmallows or tell hem to get their head out of their *ss and learn how to play real playoff hockey.

 

[hotpaws]

I think we we're hoping the Russian goalie (Askarov?) was gonna drop. He didn't so we went for the next BPA. End of story.

if you go back to that draft they were discussing how there was a drop after the top after the top 12 skaters and the goalie , so the target may have been the goalie , we'll never know .

I didn't have a problem with the pick other than it was more of the same that we already have in spades and in the mid teens there is no actual bpa , just who teams like better

the problem is we passed on 2 quality D Guhle/Schneider and a C Mercer who were just as highly if not regarded higher and also filled needs

 

[francis246]

do you mind just pointing out those players for Tampa, St Louis, Pens, Chicago, LA?

You mentioned two other teams with players who toe the line.

Also, this is the first year we went in with a tougher team than the opposition, and this was the most strictly called series I've seen until game 6/7, just odd timing for them to start calling everything.

Sure

PIT - Matt Cooke

Chicago - Bolland, Eager, Shaw, Carcillo

Tampa - Maroon

LA - Clifford (but willing to concede he was more of a fighter)

STL - Maroon

 

[ACC1224]

Well a team of Marshmallows is never going to win a damn thing in the league so maybe instead of trading the player you win a cup with, you trade the marshmallows or tell hem to get their head out of their *ss and learn how to play real playoff hockey.

I'd agree but we currently have a management team who's trying to re-invent the wheel.
Fingers crossed they'll get there.

 

[francis246]

if you go back to that draft they were discussing how there was a drop after the top after the top 12 skaters and the goalie , so the target may have been the goalie , we'll never know .

I didn't have a problem with the pick other than it was more of the same that we already have in spades and in the mid teens there is no actual bpa , just who teams like better

the problem is we passed on 2 quality D Guhle/Schneider and a C Mercer who were just as highly if not regarded higher and also filled needs

Agreed I wanted Schneider there badly. I can’t lie and say I knew much about Mercer but what a miss there

 

[Drytoast]

I believe that guys like Kadri are needed on any team in order to succeed. It is the mark of a real executive to be able to control and direct that enthusiasm. The one thing you never want to do is dampen that passision. You want to channel it in the proper direction.Maybe, just maybe, Colorado has been able to do that with Kadri.

Sure they are. But it doesn't do his team good if hes not in the series due to suspension.