Nationwide Arena/CBJ Finances Discussion II

[NotWendell]

It seems the game plan is to make the numbers look as dire as possible until this deal gets done. Until it is, I'm having a hard time believing ANY numbers from ANY source.

BTW, lack of dollars from media rights is what did Hartford in. That's why I've been clamoring for the CBJ to make the Blue Jackets appeal STATEWIDE - where you have 3 major media markets to draw viewers from and two middle markets.

 

[Crede777]

That's why I've been clamoring for the CBJ to make the Blue Jackets appeal STATEWIDE - where you have 3 major media markets to draw viewers from and two middle markets.

Dude, we're surrounded by Chicago to the West, Detroit to the North, and Pittsburgh to the East.

Who are we going to take fans from?

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

That's why I've been clamoring for the CBJ to make the Blue Jackets appeal STATEWIDE - where you have 3 major media markets to draw viewers from and two middle markets.

I'm sure they never thought of this. It's all so simple!

 

[CapnCornelius]

I can't figure out if you think I was arguing with you, busting your chops, or what. There was nothing in there directed in a negative manner toward you. Maybe I'm missing something.

As for the second part, your obsession not mine. Opening up books like that is a pipe dream and chest thumping is pointless on that point.

The Jackets are trying to get on a more even playing field with the rest of the league and most of sports on the arena issue. We keep going around in circles. Do you think you are going to change the playing field by making a stand on this issue? Thanks for making a stand from the West coast on a local issue. I hope you have family here or something. Worry about your state issues, out there you've got far bigger issues than we have here.

Given that I own property in Franklin County, I probably pay more in property taxes in Franklin County than you do. So, this probably means more to my bottom line than your's.

It is people like yourself that have no backbone on these issues that enable the incompetent politicians. What leverage do the Jackets have in this situation? None if the County had half a brain. There's no teeth to any of these threats of moving and I'd call their bluff--go ahead and move and have Nationwide take you to court and sue you for breach of contract. Otherwise, if you want County money, show the full books.

This will end the same way all of these stupid subsidies to private enterprise, badly. Look at the money pit known as Paul Brown Stadium as a perfect example of how the reality never comes close to the rosy projections. And it will be the taxpayers footing the bill, as always, despite all promises at the outset that it won't cost a dollar.

 

[NotWendell]

Dude, we're surrounded by Chicago to the West, Detroit to the North, and Pittsburgh to the East.

Who are we going to take fans from?

Cincinnati, Cleveland, Dayton. Think outside of the 614.

 

[NotWendell]

I'm sure they never thought of this. It's all so simple!

You forgot the

I know they've thought of it because I've personally brought it up to them. But do we have statewide TV coverage of every game? Do we have preseason games in Cincinnati or Cleveland? Do we have the CBJ advertised on billboards outside of the Columbus metro area? Yet I see the Bengals and Browns advertising frequently in Columbus media (and not just stations that carry their games). Do these things AND WIN, you build ratings. You have ratings, you can demand higher rights fees. Of course, you also have attendance too.

Thinking about it is easy.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

You forgot the

I know they've thought of it because I've personally brought it up to them. But do we have statewide TV coverage of every game? Do we have preseason games in Cincinnati or Cleveland? Do we have the CBJ advertised on billboards outside of the Columbus metro area? Yet I see the Bengals and Browns advertising frequently in Columbus media (and not just stations that carry their games). Do these things AND WIN, you build ratings. You have ratings, you can demand higher rights fees. Of course, you also have attendance too.

Thinking about it is easy.

Right. And short of purchasing TV time for game broadcasts I'm not sure exactly how you accomplish the former. The latter? Comparing decades of history with an NFL football team in your state to a 10-year old hockey franchise, in the cradle of the NFL... I mean, I'm all for the stuff you cite, I'm just not sure that a good ol' Jean-Luc Picard "Make it so" is gonna get it done.

 

[Samkow]

Right. And short of purchasing TV time for game broadcasts I'm not sure exactly how you accomplish the former. The latter? Comparing decades of history with an NFL football team in your state to a 10-year old hockey franchise, in the cradle of the NFL... I mean, I'm all for the stuff you cite, I'm just not sure that a good ol' Jean-Luc Picard "Make it so" is gonna get it done.

Everything in this organization is the result of ineptitude. EVERYTHING

 

[Columbus Mike]

It's why every season a preseason game should be played in Cleveland, with another in Cincinnati. Cheap tickets. Get fans interested, they'll make the drive.

 

[Fred Glover]

Right. And short of purchasing TV time for game broadcasts I'm not sure exactly how you accomplish the former. The latter? Comparing decades of history with an NFL football team in your state to a 10-year old hockey franchise, in the cradle of the NFL... I mean, I'm all for the stuff you cite, I'm just not sure that a good ol' Jean-Luc Picard "Make it so" is gonna get it done.

You accomplish the former by selling your tv rights to STO, that way there is no blackouts when the Cavs or Xavier plays

 

[Fred Glover]

It's why every season a preseason game should be played in Cleveland, with another in Cincinnati. Cheap tickets. Get fans interested, they'll make the drive.

Yes, another way to expand the brand, so to speak. And don't forget Toledo and Dayton as well. They have minor league hockey and would be happy to see the NHL in their cities for an exhibition game

 

[Jaxs]

You accomplish the former by selling your tv rights to STO, that way there is no blackouts when the Cavs or Xavier plays

From discussion months ago about STO being the Jackets broadcaster, I don't believe STO is in a lot of homes in Southern Ohio.

Here is Cable that carries it, and there are some cities south, not many.

http://www.stohd.com/TVSchedule/ChannelNumbers.aspx

 

[NotWendell]

You also have statewide channel ONN as an option, which is owned by (wait for it).... The Dispatch!
They already do Crew games in HD. That said, I'd prefer a sports network.

 

[NotWendell]

From discussion months ago about STO being the Jackets broadcaster, I don't believe STO is in a lot of homes in Southern Ohio.

Here is Cable that carries it, and there are some cities south, not many.

http://www.stohd.com/TVSchedule/ChannelNumbers.aspx

And the CBJ could be the very thing they need to get carriage in the Cincinnati market. If you build the interest in Cleveland and Cincinnati, you can make all three bid against each other.

 

[Jaxs]

And the CBJ could be the very thing they need to get carriage in the Cincinnati market.

This is true. One snag would be the partisanship for Cleveland sports, a snag to Cincy fans. I am a Reds, Bengals fan (you don't need to apologize). It wouldn't bother me, but all of their non game programming is Cleveland sports talk. Jacket talk would also start if they were the carrier. It would have to become more of an Ohio sports network, which may be a better sell.

 

[NotWendell]

This is true. One snag would be the partisanship for Cleveland sports, a snag to Cincy fans. I am a Reds, Bengals fan (you don't need to apologize). It wouldn't bother me, but all of their non game programming is Cleveland sports talk. Jacket talk would also start if they were the carrier. It would have to become more of an Ohio sports network, which may be a better sell.

Fellow life-long Reds and Bengals fan here too. Glutton for punishment.

 

[Doug19]

Given that I own property in Franklin County, I probably pay more in property taxes in Franklin County than you do. So, this probably means more to my bottom line than your's.

I'm confused, what exactly again is this deal going to do to your property taxes that you pay in Franklin County again which will affect your bottom line?

 

[cbjrocks]

And the CBJ could be the very thing they need to get carriage in the Cincinnati market. If you build the interest in Cleveland and Cincinnati, you can make all three bid against each other.

No cable company in Southern Ohio, West Virginia and Kentucky will clear STO since they would have to blackout 144 Indians games.

Please remember that Central Ohio is considered share territory for the Reds and Indians. The more south you go, the territory becomes exclusive Reds. More north, Indians. And the Reds are blacked out in northern Ohio.

FSN regionals are packaged with other Fox products. Thus why Directv viewer almost lost all Fox products last month. By packaging clearance, Fox guarentees FSNO, as well as all of their products is cleared on cable systems.

Also becuase it is packaged, cable companies are forced to black out Reds games in northern Ohio. With two feeds, FSNO offers alternate programming. STO does not.

STO primary programming is Cleveland Indians baseball, as they are co-owned and operated by the Indians, WKYC and Time Warner.

The Blue Jackets are not enough of a draw to get STO cleared in markets that would blackout Indians game without STO offering a second feed.

Finally, you really think STO would pay the $4m in broadcast rights fees FSNO currently pays the CBJ. At best, STO would enter into a revenue sharing agreement like NBC has with NHL.

 

[blahblah]

Given that I own property in Franklin County, I probably pay more in property taxes in Franklin County than you do. So, this probably means more to my bottom line than your's.

I work and own property in Columbus/Franklin County.

It is people like yourself that have no backbone on these issues that enable the incompetent politicians. What leverage do the Jackets have in this situation?

I have plenty of backbone. You are unrealistic in your expectations. There isn't even a guarantee that the league would even allow them to open up their books to the city, never mind the tax payers. Especially with the CBA getting a look.

Columbus with leverage? Once again you are looking at this backwards. The fight is really between Nationwide and the city/county.

The Jackets can't really do squat other then sell the team or file for bankruptcy. They are trying to fix the arena issue. This has little to do with the day to day operations of the team.

I fully understand what the reality of the situation is going to be. The hope is that they make far more in taxes than they lose from owning a money losing arena. Once again, no one really wants to own most arena's. Especially with two top notch ones in this small of a market.

What you can't seem to get through your head, for whatever reason, is that I don't like the game. But the game has already been established and defined. The Jackets are at a disadvantage. Either Nationwide and/or public have to make up the difference to even the playing field with other teams in the league. Hate the game, not the players. You want Nationwide to, I think both parties need to step up. A lot of the people that complain about public money have no issues visiting the area and taking advantage of what others invested in. Unemployment is also lower than it would be and revenues are higher than they would be. Nationwide is a huge employer and local partner. As I said, I think it's fair if both entities help resolve the issue no matter the chest pounding. Don't even talk to me about the money for schools and fire/police.

We've been over this before, so frankly I don't really care to expand on it more. You've stated your opinion and I've stated mine. Nothing you've said in the past I find compelling. If anything I find it rather naive. Especially for a lawyer.

 

[Viqsi]

What you can't seem to get through your head, for whatever reason, is that I don't like the game. But the game has already been established and defined. The Jackets are at a disadvantage.

But they existed as such a wonderful example of how public money isn't needed! (After all, all those losses were CLEARLY business ineptitude, not inequality in a prebroken market concept!) And now they're REGRESSING! They're TAKING OUR MONEY! It's TIME TO TAKE A STAND!!!!!111111one

 

[Fred Glover]

Just sign the papers already and keep the Jackets here.

 

[CapnCornelius]

I'm confused, what exactly again is this deal going to do to your property taxes that you pay in Franklin County again which will affect your bottom line?

Here's how it always plays out...

"This deal will cost the County absolutely nothing! Free Arena! Paid for with found money!"

5 years later...

"So, uh, we undercalculated the true costs of the Arena and it is now not competitive with other similar Arenas in the state/region. Also turns out that we overcalculated that pile of free money. Oh yeah, and that pile of free money could have been used for a budget shortfall that we have elsewhere because of tax revenues decreasing. So, we need to levy Tax X to pay for the other things that pile of money probably should have been used for in the first place instead of propping up a private enterprise."

Dollars are fungible and there are other priorities that should be considered for the casino funds before bailing out the Jackets. Because if we prioritize the Arena, you can bet the shortfalls elsewhere will ultimately be paid for by increased taxes.

There isn't even a guarantee that the league would even allow them to open up their books to the city, never mind the tax payers. Especially with the CBA getting a look.

The CBA is available online. It is about as benign a document as you can find. It doesn't divulge some great trade secrets as you seem to think. Have a look.

http://www.nhl.com/cba/2005-CBA.pdf

The league will go along with whatever gets the Jackets their bailout. Their primary concern is making money, not keeping secrets. If you need evidence of that, do some reseach on the Nashville situation.

The fight is really between Nationwide and the city/county.

What fight do you think there is between Nationwide and the City/County? You think Nationwide is going to pick this as their fight when they have an on-going relationship with the City/County? Do you have some delusions that Nationwide is threatening to pack up over this? Get real.

What you can't seem to get through your head, for whatever reason, is that I don't like the game. But the game has already been established and defined. The Jackets are at a disadvantage. Either Nationwide and/or public have to make up the difference to even the playing field with other teams in the league. Hate the game, not the players. You want Nationwide to, I think both parties need to step up. A lot of the people that complain about public money have no issues visiting the area and taking advantage of what others invested in. Unemployment is also lower than it would be and revenues are higher than they would be. Nationwide is a huge employer and local partner. As I said, I think it's fair if both entities help resolve the issue no matter the chest pounding. Don't even talk to me about the money for schools and fire/police.

Oh, I get that this is being rammed through. But at least one person has to call this BS for what it is given that the local rag is in bed with both the government and the Nationwide folks in trying to get this to quitely go through without any questions. I don't see why the public should subsidize failed business ventures. It eliminates moral hazard. It is exactly this type of government intervention which has hobbled the world's economies.

I fundamentally disagree with the assertion that the Arena District has been the great boon for the economy some want to believe. This is an assumption based upon more assumptions with only poorly sourced data to backup. Talk about your oversimplifications.

Nothing you've said in the past I find compelling. If anything I find it rather naive. Especially for a lawyer.

I think it is folks such as yourself who are being naive by assuming that the Arena District is of great economic benefit to anyone other than those lobbying for a bailout. Talk to the former owners of some of the Arena District's businesses and ask how helpful those same parties were when they asked for some relief during the lockout. I can tell you they weren't concerned about the greater good of Columbus or protecting the jobs they allegedly created.

 

[Fred Glover]

Here's how it always plays out...

"This deal will cost the County absolutely nothing! Free Arena! Paid for with found money!"

5 years later...

"So, uh, we undercalculated the true costs of the Arena and it is now not competitive with other similar Arenas in the state/region. Also turns out that we overcalculated that pile of free money. Oh yeah, and that pile of free money could have been used for a budget shortfall that we have elsewhere because of tax revenues decreasing. So, we need to levy Tax X to pay for the other things that pile of money probably should have been used for in the first place instead of propping up a private enterprise."

Dollars are fungible and there are other priorities that should be considered for the casino funds before bailing out the Jackets. Because if we prioritize the Arena, you can bet the shortfalls elsewhere will ultimately be paid for by increased taxes.



The CBA is available online. It is about as benign a document as you can find. It doesn't divulge some great trade secrets as you seem to think. Have a look.

http://www.nhl.com/cba/2005-CBA.pdf

The league will go along with whatever gets the Jackets their bailout. Their primary concern is making money, not keeping secrets. If you need evidence of that, do some reseach on the Nashville situation.



What fight do you think there is between Nationwide and the City/County? You think Nationwide is going to pick this as their fight when they have an on-going relationship with the City/County? Do you have some delusions that Nationwide is threatening to pack up over this? Get real.



Oh, I get that this is being rammed through. But at least one person has to call this BS for what it is given that the local rag is in bed with both the government and the Nationwide folks in trying to get this to quitely go through without any questions. I don't see why the public should subsidize failed business ventures. It eliminates moral hazard. It is exactly this type of government intervention which has hobbled the world's economies.

I fundamentally disagree with the assertion that the Arena District has been the great boon for the economy some want to believe. This is an assumption based upon more assumptions with only poorly sourced data to backup. Talk about your oversimplifications.



I think it is folks such as yourself who are being naive by assuming that the Arena District is of great economic benefit to anyone other than those lobbying for a bailout. Talk to the former owners of some of the Arena District's businesses and ask how helpful those same parties were when they asked for some relief during the lockout. I can tell you they weren't concerned about the greater good of Columbus or protecting the jobs they allegedly created.

What are the names of the businesses that you speak of?

 

[blahblah]

The CBA is available online. It is about as benign a document as you can find. It doesn't divulge some great trade secrets as you seem to think. Have a look.

http://www.nhl.com/cba/2005-CBA.pdf

Dur.... I wasn't talking about what the CBA would allow. I said the league. At the heart of most labor disputes "I want the <insert company> to open up the books" and it's usually a lost cause to even ask. Honestly, it's pointless for you to ask and the fans to ask.

I am really trying to be patient here, but I'm struggling... We'll have to go back to what we had over the last month.....

After reading all of your response.... Wow... I can't say anymore without risk of trolling hard.

 

[CapnCornelius]

Dur.... I wasn't talking about what the CBA would allow. I said the league. At the heart of most labor disputes "I want the <insert company> to open up the books" and it's usually a lost cause to even ask. Honestly, it's pointless for you to ask and the fans to ask.

It isn't pointless for an entity they are asking for financing from (and that's really what this all is, the County using its tax exempt status to refinance this Arena at a lower rate than the Jackets would get for a lump sum payment) to ask to see their books. Any creditor worth a crap would do that before lending tens of millions of dollars. If the City and County aren't, they are fools. Particularly since some of the team's largest line items are associated with the asset they are acquiring.

Considering the sweet heart deal that they are getting compared to what they would get from a major financial institution which would require them to do things like maintain a certain net worth and liquidity (in addition to annual, quarterly and possibly even monthly financial information), it seems to me that some reasonable amount of financial disclosure should be required.

As for your concerns that somehow what they would disclose would be used as leverage by the PA, get real. For one thing, the Jackets are exactly the type of information the league would like to leak because they are a cherry-picked example of "why the CBA doesn't work." Nevermind the fact that it is the revenue sharing amongst owners and not the contracts of players that is the biggest issue for why the hard cap has not solved the financial problems of middle market teams.