Nathan Mackinnon - the best player in the league

[Avs2022]

Where is the outrage that McKinnon's 2nd assist last night came with an empty net. Once again.

 

[Toby91ca]

Where is the outrage that McKinnon's 2nd assist last night came with an empty net. Once again.

I know there is a joke in there...but what am I missing?

 

[Avs2022]

I know there is a joke in there...but what am I missing?

In a couple of the last Av's 3 games, Mac has 3 empty net points. We won two of them in OT. He's an empty net merchant as many have said.

 

[Toby91ca]

In a couple of the last Av's 3 games, Mac has 3 empty net points. We won two of them in OT. He's an empty net merchant as many have said.

Yeah, I've seen that, get it, just curious about last night as 2nd assist was in OT....as I suggested, there must have been a bit of a joke I didn't get

 

[nerevarine]

Yeah, I've seen that, get it, just curious about last night as 2nd assist was in OT....as I suggested, there must have been a bit of a joke I didn't get

Think hes referring to the fact that nate got another secondary assist with his goalie pulled (IE: empty net). The joke is nate has been stat padding in games where the other team is losing and pulls their goalie to try and tie it.

 

[authentic]

Really sound comment and can’t say I disagree with really any of it. As of today I look at the leaderboards and while the top 4 guys are all having very good seasons (McDavid, Kucherov, MacKinnon and Draisaitl) none of them are earth shattering in a league that has been a higher scoring league since 2018. They are all comparable to a 2021-22 McDavid as of right now which while impressive, aren’t going to blow your socks off.

His separation went away last year because MacKinnon and Kucherov each had seasons on par with a peak Jagr if scoring levels are factored in. McDavid played through and injury and still was right between those two for ppg. This year halfway through is a log jam that won’t be sorted until the years end but who knows if we see a special season or not. He is NOT Gretzky. He isn’t Lemieux either. Those two are the two players I’ve seen that are better without a doubt but I do believe that despite him being susceptible to contemporaries catching him in a given year, he is a “big 5” guy.

His 2021 and 2023 seasons were 100% big 4 caliber and in my opinion the only two seasons we have seen since Lemieux that qualify. Dominance over peers and era adjusted they stand above the rest of the non big 4 players. My take on him building a big 5 isn’t solely on the amount of big 4 seasons he puts up, it’s that he already has the only two of them coupled with his trophy case. When you factor in career projections it’s hard to bet against 4-5 Harts, 6-7 Ross, 5-6 Ted Lindsay’s and perhaps 2000 points. That alone would have him 5th for me. A cup win and it’s sealed as his smythe is already there in big 4 individual fashion as well.

This is just my opinion obviously and you make a good point on how the game is much more advanced so creating Gretzky/Lemieux gaps year in and year out shouldn’t be possible really in theory.

I also don’t want to diminish Kucherov or MacKinnon. While McDavid is definitely better than both at his best these two are all time talents. Got to see Nate this year for the third time live when they came to Pittsburgh and he has one of the best eye tests I’ve EVER seen. Saw McDavid on the 9th and we finally beat the oilers after I believe 7 straight. He was still superb even though they had to stack he and Drai to make it competitive. I’ve seen McDavid in 6 of the 8 games he has played in Pittsburgh with two 2019 games (19 and 20 seasons) being the exceptions. He has 18 points in those 6 games and 14 in his last 4 starting in 2022. As you know from prior interactions I am big on the in person performances. I got to see it with Gretzky which is why my opinion of him is even higher than many pens fans. To me from what I see when I watch him play McDavid is the third best eye test I’ve seen behind Wayne and Mario but I’ll say that Nate is easily in my top 7 for eye test as well. For a long time 2012 Malkin was the best Penguin I saw since late 90s Jagr or Mario in general but Nate is just as good as that iteration of Geno if not better. Kucherov I got to see again for I believe my 5th time and he is a different type of awesome. He reminds me of a pre Suter hit Kings Gretzky. He is so slick and the way he is able to dominate the game with his mind is damn impressive.

There is still so much career for McDavid left (hopefully) but overall my take is that he will be the big 5 guy. I’ve fortunately gotten to watch a lot of hockey and have seen all of the greats from the 80s to now (in person at that) and to me this kid is really special. If you remove the darn near immortal talents of Gretzky and Lemieux, this kid is the best I’ve seen. If you factor in game advancement he probably is the best in a vacuum but then that’s not fair to Gretzky or Lemieux as they never had the chance to grow up and play now.

Okay now you have to name your top 7, or just make it 10 if you’re able.

Think hes referring to the fact that nate got another secondary assist with his goalie pulled (IE: empty net). The joke is nate has been stat padding in games where the other team is losing and pulls their goalie to try and tie it.

It will be cool to see who wins out by the end of this season between MacKinnon and Kucherov, combined with last season, empty net points and total points included. They are very close to each other offensively but I have MacKinnon ahead for his all around game.

 

[ChaoticOrange]

MacKinnon: 12 empty net points
Edmonton, as a team: 14 empty net points

Posting this just because it's hilarious how terrible Edmonton is when the opposition has the goalie pulled.

 

[NYRKing]

One of the best to watch for sure. Aside from McDavid, watching the speed of his stick work with his skating is absurd.

 

[Jabba11]

Yes, he is the best in the league. Was always a fan of him back when he was with the Mooseheads. Even back then, I was amongst the few thinking MacK would be better than McDavid.

 

[Avs2022]

Yeah, I've seen that, get it, just curious about last night as 2nd assist was in OT....as I suggested, there must have been a bit of a joke I didn't get

My mistake, meant his first assist.

 

[WalterLundy]

Okay now you have to name your top 7, or just make it 10 if you’re

1)Early-mid 80s Gretzky
2)Late 80s-early 90s Lemieux
3)2020s McDavid
4)Late 90s Jagr
5)08-10 Ovechkin
6)09 playoff and 12 reg season Malkin
7)2020s MacKinnon
8)late 2000s-early 2010s Crosby
9)2020s Kucherov
10)late 80s Yzerman

Honorable mentions would be
Sakic, Forsberg and Mike Bossy

If you ask me on a different day I may put Forsberg in the top 10. He was a force.

 

[authentic]

1)Early-mid 80s Gretzky
2)Late 80s-early 90s Lemieux
3)2020s McDavid
4)Late 90s Jagr
5)08-10 Ovechkin
6)09 playoff and 12 reg season Malkin
7)2020s MacKinnon
8)late 2000s-early 2010s Crosby
9)2020s Kucherov
10)late 80s Yzerman

Honorable mentions would be
Sakic, Forsberg and Mike Bossy

If you ask me on a different day I may put Forsberg in the top 10. He was a force.

Glad someone has the guts to put MacKinnon this high on HF, because in real life among those I talk hockey with it’s a given he’s a top 10 player (yes, of all-time), and on an absolute scale taking players exactly as they are he’s probably top 5!

I will throw out mine. I’ll do it without defensemen as well and limit it to those that I’ve watched play enough so no one before Gretzky’s time would apply just like your list.

1. a) Gretzky
1. b) Lemieux
3. McDavid
4. Jagr
5. Ovechkin/Crosby/Malkin/Forsberg
9. MacKinnon
10. Sakic

HM to Fedorov, Datsyuk, Zetterberg and Kucherov. I haven’t been able to convince myself I’d take Kucherov over those 3 two-way beasts from Detroit, at their peak they were just so dominant all over the ice, although their could be some bias there from me against Kucherov and I can understand your ranking of him in the top 10. The 1 a and 1 b are due to me flip flopping between who’s best between Lemieux and Gretzky at their best but lately I’ve given Gretzky his due since he was at his best so much longer and far more often. There are also days where I genuinely feel like I’d take Forsberg over any of Crosby, Ovechkin and Malkin, hence listing them all on a tier together.

 

[WalterLundy]

Glad someone has the guts to put MacKinnon this high on HF, because in real life among those I talk hockey with it’s a given he’s a top 10 player (yes, of all-time), and on an absolute scale taking players exactly as they are he’s probably top 5!

I will throw out mine. I’ll do it without defensemen as well and limit it to those that I’ve watched play enough so no one before Gretzky’s time would apply just like your list.

1. a) Gretzky
1. b) Lemieux
3. McDavid
4. Jagr
5. Ovechkin/Crosby/Malkin/Forsberg
9. MacKinnon
10. Sakic

HM to Fedorov, Datsyuk, Zetterberg and Kucherov. I haven’t been able to convince myself I’d take Kucherov over those 3 two-way beasts from Detroit, at their peak they were just so dominant all over the ice, although their could be some bias there from me against Kucherov and I can understand your ranking of him in the top 10. The 1 a and 1 b are due to me flip flopping between who’s best between Lemieux and Gretzky at their best but lately I’ve given Gretzky his due since he was at his best so much longer and far more often. There are also days where I genuinely feel like I’d take Forsberg over any of Crosby, Ovechkin and Malkin, hence listing them all on a tier together.

What’s funny is that I agree with the approximate top 5 range for absolute talent.

Gretzky and Lemieux I rank Gretzky above for your exact reasons. He had a much longer peak and every game I saw him play here he was absolute dynamite. Lemieux I got to see so much that you become accustomed to his effortless greatness. For absolute peak Gretzky and Lemieux are pretty close (60 games vs 60 games for 84 Gretzky and 93 Lemieux) or any of his 82-86 seasons vs the full 89 Lemieux. It just comes down to a slight statistical edge for Gretzky in either here coupled with his duration of peak. You can adjust and it gets tighter for absolute peak but same deal. I do understand those that would have Mario as 1 for eye test however but we have similar reasoning.

Back to the absolute scale though I too talk hockey with people in real life and you won’t hear as much gatekeeping or holding to specific, cemented ordering process as things are on here. I’ll also talk to my sons (who are just now all grown) and they think very highly of MacKinnon and McDavid. My youngest is 18 and he and his friends think McDavid IS the greatest and they use the “just watch him” arguments. When you watch either one of those two skate with the puck it’s hard not to get the sense that they wouldn’t smoke any previous era to a tune unheard of and I say that as one who witnessed said prior era. MacKinnon is one of the most advanced players hockey has produced. To me McDavid has the most absolute talent in a vacuum but again it’s just so hard to say he’s better than Wayne or Mario even then. Especially if they got to be born in the mid 90s and play now I really wonder. It’s all fun conversation.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

Not at all. When comparing McDavid and MacKinnon, all I said is in a game 7 of a finals, I’d take MacKinnon because he did come up clutch in the biggest game to win the cup. No where did I say that 2 games define career. It’s just my preference

This is such a lazy argument point that gets thrown around on here so often. It also isn't based in a reality. If for some reason you had a team that made it to game 7 SCF with McDavid on the top line, you and everyone else is just going to roll with McDavid for a ton of reasons, chemistry being the biggest one.

 

[onetweasy]

Where is the outrage that McKinnon's 2nd assist last night came with an empty net. Once again.

Get used to the criticism when your on top.....

McDavid has basically blitzed the league offensively since he entered and if he has a slow 3 games a thread pops up about he isn't even the best player in the league let alone a generational talent.......

 

[authentic]

Glad someone has the guts to put MacKinnon this high on HF, because in real life among those I talk hockey with it’s a given he’s a top 10 player (yes, of all-time), and on an absolute scale taking players exactly as they are he’s probably top 5!

I will throw out mine. I’ll do it without defensemen as well and limit it to those that I’ve watched play enough so no one before Gretzky’s time would apply just like your list.

1. a) Gretzky
1. b) Lemieux
3. McDavid
4. Jagr
5. Ovechkin/Crosby/Malkin/Forsberg
9. MacKinnon
10. Sakic

HM to Fedorov, Datsyuk, Zetterberg and Kucherov. I haven’t been able to convince myself I’d take Kucherov over those 3 two-way beasts from Detroit, at their peak they were just so dominant all over the ice, although their could be some bias there from me against Kucherov and I can understand your ranking of him in the top 10. The 1 a and 1 b are due to me flip flopping between who’s best between Lemieux and Gretzky at their best but lately I’ve given Gretzky his due since he was at his best so much longer and far more often. There are also days where I genuinely feel like I’d take Forsberg over any of Crosby, Ovechkin and Malkin, hence listing them all on a tier together.

Also just realized I totally left Lindros out, he would probably be 10th with peak Sakic if not with MacKinnon for me.

 

[PuckG]

Get used to it the criticism when your on top.....

McDavid has basically blitzed the league offensively since he entered and if he has a slow 3 games a thread pops up about he isn't even the best player in the league let alone a generational talent.......

It’s amazing how quickly people forget the last 8-9 seasons all to make their argument on a marginal sample size that doesn’t even span half a season.

The results are clear and everyone knows who is who without their names even being listed:

 

[Greatzsky 99]

It’s amazing how quickly people forget the last 8-9 seasons all to make their argument on a marginal sample size that doesn’t even span half a season.

The results are clear and everyone kn

It’s amazing how quickly people forget the last 8-9 seasons all to make their argument on a marginal sample size that doesn’t even span half a season.

The results are clear and everyone knows who is who without their names even being listed:

View attachment 961593

ows who is who without their names even being listed

Based on these stats i think the player to the right is better

 

[PuckG]

Based on these stats i think the player to the right is better

Based on what?

 

[Greatzsky 99]

Based on what?

it was just sarkasm, pointing out that no one would pick the one to the right based on the stats.

 

[Brookbank]

The guy is absolutely on fire and is a treat to watch. Cannot see him losing the art ross this year with this current play.

Even in 3-1 games he gets 2 points at least. Definitely the best player in the league the past two seasons.

Did we really need a random Mackinnon tire pump thread