Nathan Mackinnon - the best player in the league

[Regal]

In the context of a thread claiming MacK is definitely the best player in the world, I think a 5 point difference over a full season is significant. Especially considering the 13 point difference in ENP that you mentioned. I realize this thread was started by a pretty obvious McDavid hater but still.

Fair enough. I think it’s close enough where other factors could push a player ahead to being the best. I do think MacKinnon’s play driving and 5v5 production pushed him over Kucherov last year even though Kucherov outscored him by 4 points for example. Though I think McDavid has been the better all around player in this time period.

 

[DitchMarner]

Honestly, I would say MacKinnon's done enough since the beginning of last year that you can have a conservation about whether he's better than McDavid. But I wouldn't call him better yet.

He did win the Hart and Lindsay, but Matthews won those awards over McDavid as well. McDavid's playoff performances in '22 and '24 were ridiculous. He made it obvious in '23 that Matthews wasn't really close to him.

MacKinnon is having another special season, but I wouldn't crown him yet. The season is far from over and McDavid will be hungrier than ever come playoff time.

 

[authentic]

If only McNugget wasnt playing injured for the past 167 games. He'd have 1 zillion points by now.

“If only” doesn’t really apply to the player with the most points over his career, more Art Ross than the rest of the NHL combined, 42 points in a playoff run and another averaging over 2 points per game.

Honestly, I would say MacKinnon's done enough since the beginning of last year that you can have a conservation about whether he's better than McDavid. But I wouldn't call him better yet.

He did win the Hart and Lindsay, but Matthews won those awards over McDavid as well. McDavid's playoff performances in '22 and '24 were ridiculous. He made it obvious in '23 that Matthews wasn't really close to him.

MacKinnon is having another special season, but I wouldn't crown him yet. The season is far from over and McDavid will be hungrier than ever come playoff time.

Yeah like he has firmly entered the discussion, but in my eyes he’s still clearly not as good as McDavid.

 

[Greatzsky 99]

Not sure where those are from. Since January 1, 2023 these are the numbers:


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well my numbers are from the last 2 SEASONS, which include playoffs of course. What kind of cherrypicking are you doing? You change the rules all the time. Or should he be called McRegulakinnon

If you say the last couple of seasons, say last regular seasons then, if it was the other way around, you surely would have includet that. im feed up with these McKinnon fanatics, they dont bend to data, and i find it tiresome.

 

[Greatzsky 99]

Honestly, I would say MacKinnon's done enough since the beginning of last year that you can have a conservation about whether he's better than McDavid. But I wouldn't call him better yet.

He did win the Hart and Lindsay, but Matthews won those awards over McDavid as well. McDavid's playoff performances in '22 and '24 were ridiculous. He made it obvious in '23 that Matthews wasn't really close to him.

MacKinnon is having another special season, but I wouldn't crown him yet. The season is far from over and McDavid will be hungrier than ever come playoff time.

when does a season start at the beginning of the year? and if that is important

NOTES: McDavid (42 goals, 138 assists in 2024) became the third player in NHL history to record 180 points in a calendar year (regular season and playoffs). Gretzky did it nine times with a high of 252 in 1983 and Mario Lemieux did it three times with a high of 200 in 1988. ... McDavid also recorded his 39th multi-assist game in 2024 (regular season and playoffs) and joined Gretzky -- who did it 11 times with a high of 48 games in 1985 and 1988 -- as the only players to do so.

Im not the one saying Nathan isnt best or not, the one who made the thread is, but it is not supported by stats, i have showed in a differnt kind of ways that hes still behind McDavid, but if you only take from 1 jan 2023 REGULAR season games, but that is dishonest to do.

 

[Regal]

well my numbers are from the last 2 SEASONS, which include playoffs of course. What kind of cherrypicking are you doing? You change the rules all the time. Or should he be called McRegulakinnon

If you say the last couple of seasons, say last regular seasons then, if it was the other way around, you surely would have includet that. im feed up with these McKinnon fanatics, they dont bend to data, and i find it tiresome.

I didn’t start the convo. The other poster said since the start of 2023, which to me means the start of the year 2023. And usually regular season stats aren’t combined with playoffs. Wanting to include the playoffs and not cut a season in half is fair, I’m just providing the stats the poster was talking about.

 

[DitchMarner]

when does a season start at the beginning of the year? and if that is important

NOTES: McDavid (42 goals, 138 assists in 2024) became the third player in NHL history to record 180 points in a calendar year (regular season and playoffs). Gretzky did it nine times with a high of 252 in 1983 and Mario Lemieux did it three times with a high of 200 in 1988. ... McDavid also recorded his 39th multi-assist game in 2024 (regular season and playoffs) and joined Gretzky -- who did it 11 times with a high of 48 games in 1985 and 1988 -- as the only players to do so.

Im not the one saying Nathan isnt best or not, the one who made the thread is, but it is not supported by stats, i have showed in a differnt kind of ways that hes still behind McDavid, but if you only take from 1 jan 2023 REGULAR season games, but that is dishonest to do.

I meant since the start of the 2023-2024 season. He did win the Hart and Lindsay. Yes, I know McDavid missed games.

If you factor in the playoffs, I would say McDavid comes out ahead.

Now MacKinnon looks like the only real threat (sans Kucherov) to McDavid for the Art Ross this year. Like I said, I wouldn't say he is better than McDavid at this point, but if he wins the Hart and Lindsay again and also takes the Art Ross and has a dominant playoffs, there at least has to be a discussion, doesn't there?

I predicted in a thread I made that McDavid would outscore him and I stand by that. But MacKinnon is not making things easy for him.

 

[benfranklin]

“If only” doesn’t really apply to the player with the most points over his career, more Art Ross than the rest of the NHL combined, 42 points in a playoff run and another averaging over 2 points per game.

You forgot 0 Cups.

 

[Phil Kessels Hot Dog]

You forgot 0 Cups.

Mcdavid has only outscored Mac by 73 points over the last 12 seasons, so they're pretty close.

 

[benfranklin]

Mcdavid has only outscored Mac by 73 points over the last 12 seasons, so they're pretty close.

How many Cups again?

 

[PuckG]

How many Cups again?

This is a thread on the best player - meaning a comparison of individual talent and accolades.

Using a team award is a poor and disingenuous argument, but you already know that.

McDavid playing on the Avs also has a Stanley Cup at this point.

 

[benfranklin]

This is a thread on the best player - meaning a comparison of individual talent and accolades.

Using a team award is a poor and disingenuous argument, but you already know that.

McDavid playing on the Avs also has a Stanley Cup at this point.

Hard disagree. 16-17 was the infamous Avalanche 48 point season. Considering McDavid put up 100+ points in 16-17 on a garbage Oilers team, it is safe to assume he would have as well on the the Avs resulting in them likely not finishing dead last. They lost the lottery that season and guess who they picked? McDavid would have single handedly changed all of that. That is one minor (major given its spoiler alert: Big Balls Makar), but can dive down the cap route and the 2022 Avs likely dont have some combination of Nichushkin, Burakovsky, Lehkonen, Helm, and/or Kadri because of the difference in McDavids $12.5 and MacKinnons $6.5M cap hit at the time. But lets just drop player A on team b and not consider any other moving parts.

Would Gretzky be considered the best ever still with a bazillion goals and points and zero Cups? What would Ovi's legacy be with zero Cups? Would Toews make the top 100 with zero Cups?

Nowhere does it say in the OP, lets brag about individual playoff point scoring, but ignore actually winning the damn thing. It all matters and MacKinnon didnt win 10 years ago being a role player. He won 3 seasons ago and has been swinging his balls in McDavids face being the best forward in the world ever since.

 

[crowfish]

How many Cups again?

How many playoff MVPs does MacKinnon have again? Or do you not want to use individual awards to compare individuals (aka use brain cells)

 

[PuckG]

Hard disagree. 16-17 was the infamous Avalanche 48 point season. Considering McDavid put up 100+ points in 16-17 on a garbage Oilers team, it is safe to assume he would have as well on the the Avs resulting in them likely not finishing dead last. They lost the lottery that season and guess who they picked? McDavid would have single handedly changed all of that. That is one minor (major given its spoiler alert: Big Balls Makar), but can dive down the cap route and the 2022 Avs likely dont have some combination of Nichushkin, Burakovsky, Lehkonen, Helm, and/or Kadri because of the difference in McDavids $12.5 and MacKinnons $6.5M cap hit at the time. But lets just drop player A on team b and not consider any other moving parts.

Would Gretzky be considered the best ever still with a bazillion goals and points and zero Cups? What would Ovi's legacy be with zero Cups? Would Toews make the top 100 with zero Cups?

Nowhere does it say in the OP, let’s brag about individual playoff point scoring, but ignore actually winning the damn thing. It all matters and MacKinnon didnt win 10 years ago being a role player. He won 3 seasons ago and has been swinging his balls in McDavids face being the best forward in the world ever since.

In a comparison of talent, cap space and most of what you said is irrelevant.

If you are incapable of separating the two, you may as well argue Pat Maroon is a better player than McDavid. Because Cups and all…

We’ve gone down this route, but you go ahead and stick with your disingenuous, poor argument.

 

[benfranklin]

How many playoff MVPs does MacKinnon have again? Or do you not want to use individual awards to compare individuals (aka use brain cells)

Bouchard is the best passing playoff defenseman in history too based on that. The 2022 Avs were too good, they were done 5 games earlier drunk with the Cup instead of padding their stats.

Give me any team winning the damn thing in 16-18-20-22 games than losing in 25 games beating up a garbage Kings team and needing 7 games against another garbage Canucks team and then at the end going pointless in two consecutive games to lose the Cup for your team while mumbling F bombs in the locker room to look tough.

 

[McFlash97]

Mcdavid has only outscored Mac by 73 points over the last 12 seasons, so they're pretty close.

Lol.



McDavid has only been in the NHL for 9 seasons.

If you prorated 12 seasons at McDavids current production, he would be 500 points ahead of Mackinnon in 12 seasons....

 

[Soundwave]

Hard disagree. 16-17 was the infamous Avalanche 48 point season. Considering McDavid put up 100+ points in 16-17 on a garbage Oilers team, it is safe to assume he would have as well on the the Avs resulting in them likely not finishing dead last. They lost the lottery that season and guess who they picked? McDavid would have single handedly changed all of that. That is one minor (major given its spoiler alert: Big Balls Makar), but can dive down the cap route and the 2022 Avs likely dont have some combination of Nichushkin, Burakovsky, Lehkonen, Helm, and/or Kadri because of the difference in McDavids $12.5 and MacKinnons $6.5M cap hit at the time. But lets just drop player A on team b and not consider any other moving parts.

Would Gretzky be considered the best ever still with a bazillion goals and points and zero Cups? What would Ovi's legacy be with zero Cups? Would Toews make the top 100 with zero Cups?

Nowhere does it say in the OP, lets brag about individual playoff point scoring, but ignore actually winning the damn thing. It all matters and MacKinnon didnt win 10 years ago being a role player. He won 3 seasons ago and has been swinging his balls in McDavids face being the best forward in the world ever since.

In fairness, Gretzky never won shit without a literal All-Star team around him, a team so good it won a Cup without him and Coffey.

The Oilers also went on to beat Gretzky's Kings like 3/4 times in the playoffs head to head.

 

[benfranklin]

We really need a Rantanen > Draisaitl thread next.

In fairness, Gretzky never won shit without a literal All-Star team around him, a team so good it won a Cup without him and Coffey.

The Oilers also went on to beat Gretzky's Kings like 3/4 times in the playoffs head to head.

Point being Cups matter to a players legacy. If McDavid never wins one, he will go down as the best player who was a huge disappointment.

 

[crowfish]

Bouchard is the best passing playoff defenseman in history too based on that. The 2022 Avs were too good, they were done 5 games earlier drunk with the Cup instead of padding their stats.

Give me any team winning the damn thing in 16-18-20-22 games than losing in 25 games beating up a garbage Kings team and needing 7 games against another garbage Canucks team and then at the end going pointless in two consecutive games to lose the Cup for your team while mumbling F bombs in the locker room to look tough.

Yes, the 2022 Avs were too good, which is exactly why it is not impressive that MacKinnon is a Cup winner and McDavid is not. Thanks for proving how stupid using Cups is. I would also take "any team" that wins in 20 games over a team that loses in 25 games. But if I am picking a player (Hint, McDavid & MacKinnon are players), I'll take the better player, which is obviously McDavid.

 

[Soundwave]

We really need a Rantanen > Draisaitl thread next.


Point being Cups matter to a players legacy. If McDavid never wins one, he will go down as the best player who was a huge disappointment.

Point is there's a long way to go in McDavid's career.

What's MacKinnon done the last two years with a more normalized roster comparable to what McDavid has? Draisaitl/Hyman/Ekholm/Bouchard I'd say is a fair wash with Makar/Rantanen/Nichushkin/Toews.

Colorado got knocked out in the playoffs by maybe the worst team to make the playoffs in the last 5 years (Seattle). Then they got whupped by Dallas who Edmonton beat without a ton of fuss.

When they're given similar types of rosters to work with, McDavid has gotten better results the last two years in the playoffs.

 

[PuckG]

If you tilt your head, you can see Makars giant balls popping out of his shorts resting on Draisaitl's head as he cries.

Remember when you started on these boards with “I provide objective and factual information on this board.”

You’re doing an awesome job doing it.

 

[benfranklin]

Yes, the 2022 Avs were too good, which is exactly why it is not impressive that MacKinnon is a Cup winner and McDavid is not. Thanks for proving how stupid using Cups is. I would also take "any team" that wins in 20 games over a team that loses in 25 games. But if I am picking a player (Hint, McDavid & MacKinnon are players), I'll take the better player, which is obviously McDavid.

If MacKinnon was some scrub who barely did anything, then maybe ill buy that, but he was a huge factor in the entire Cup run and the clinching game. All I hear is Oilers fans bragging about 42 points. The Oilers lost! This is like Patriots bragging about their undefeated season. You have to finish it for it to matter.

Remember when you started on these boards with “I provide objective and factual information on this board.”

You’re doing an awesome job doing it.

Still do. All facts here. You want to magically move players around and not consider cap ramifications in make believe world. Its not realistic.

Point is there's a long way to go in McDavid's career.

What's MacKinnon done the last two years with a more normalized roster comparable to what McDavid has? Draisaitl/Hyman/Ekholm/Bouchard I'd say is a fair wash with Makar/Rantanen/Nichushkin/Toews.

Colorado got knocked out in the playoffs by maybe the worst team to make the playoffs in the last 5 years (Seattle). Then they got whupped by Dallas who Edmonton beat without a ton of fuss.

When they're given similar types of rosters to work with, McDavid has gotten better results the last two years in the playoffs.

I agree, he still has time. Im betting he wins one with his next team. Im thinking Kings or Rangers.

Meh meh meh 2022 they won it all. Winning is al lthat matters. Avs - 1 Oilers - 0.

 

[Soundwave]

If MacKinnon was some scrub who barely did anything, then maybe ill buy that, but he was a huge factor in the entire Cup run and the clinching game. All I hear is Oilers fans bragging about 42 points. The Oilers lost! This is like Patriots bragging about their undefeated season. You have to finish it for it to matter.


Still do. All facts here. You want to magically move players around and not consider cap ramifications in make believe world. Its not realistic.


I agree, he still has time. Im betting he wins one with his next team. Im thinking Kings or Rangers.

Meh meh meh 2022 they won it all. Winning is al lthat matters. Avs - 1 Oilers - 0.

By that logic, Patrick Maroon > Nathan MacKinnon. After all, wInnaNG iz Allz daT MaTturS!

 

[koyvoo]

At this point you guys seem like you’re trying to outstupid each other with your posts.

Do any of you ever consider the people who read these arguments who are not as emotionally invested in the subject matter and how dumb you seem to them?

But, carry on.

 

[benfranklin]

By that logic, Patrick Maroon > Nathan MacKinnon. After all, wInnaNG iz Allz daT MaTturS!

If Maroon was a 1.20 ppg during his run and had a goal and an assist in the clinching 2-1 game, then yes Maroon would be a big deal.